Looks like I'm never buying RAM again...

[JHoward]

emissions



You should try living up here with the supreme climate alarmist natsi trudeau. We have an escalating carbon tax on most fuels and they've been caught pyssing that tax money away and yet it continues.

He's threatening to start pressuring China but already has one foot out the door. He should be gone after the next election, I doubt anyone else will get after china.

.

... Someone has recently been elected south of you that will indeed address china ...

 

[JHoward]

That's not going to happen. Stellantis didn't change to the I6 Turbo because they wanted to. The EPA made it happen with fines. So going back to a V8 isn't really an option. That's also why all the truck mfg's are headed in that direction. The only one left where you can find a V8 is Chevy/GMC. Last I checked with the F150, they do exist, but are hard to find. If you a picky about options, you would have to order one.

Ok, concerning the EPA rules, explain why FORD still offers a v-8 in the truck line and hasn't killed the Mustang with the v-8 option ...

 

[RamDiver]

... Someone has recently been elected south of you that will indeed address china ...

O ya, that should be entertaining.

He does have a special way of being direct and not mincing words. LOL

.

 

[Docwagon1776]

Ok, concerning the EPA rules, explain why FORD still offers a v-8 in the truck line and hasn't killed the Mustang with the v-8 option ...

Oh, oh, I know this one!

Because Ford:

1) Funded R&D to update their V8 offerings, resulting in better efficiency. Side bonus: They make more power as well.
2) Maintained a wider product lineup so fleet wide averages could be maintained.
3) Thought ahead to European markets and Asian markets instead of trying to only sell increasingly expensive products to the NA market.

Same for GM.

Stellantis starved the North American brands, eliminated models with no replacement, abandoned much of the market, etc. Ford doesn't make much money off the Maverick compared to an F150, but each one they sell helps CAFE standards so they can sell those big profit Raptors, etc.

 

[RamDiver]

I'll be in Montreal next June, but don't intend to try and drive there. Flying in to Montreal and out of Quebec City.

I recall riding through Montreal on a motorcycle many times in my 20s.

It was fun riding on Metropolitan Boulevard (known as the Met) where for sport, we'd try to ride very fast, and not get smucked or sucked off one of the many left-side off-ramps.

The Met is a speedway, or... it's a motorway that crosses Montreal and much of it has a shoulder only big enough for a bike.

The crazy things we did as kids and survived to tell the stories.


Quebec City is beautiful with very cool architecture and a great place for sightseeing.

.

 

[Cmz2800]

I didn’t look through every comment but I’ll chip in with my thoughts:
V8’s aren’t necessarily better than an inline 6. They are definitely not more efficient nor are they better balanced.
And like someone said in a comment: Semi tractors are almost ALL inline 6 motors for the reason stated above. As far as sound, that’s all subjective. I mean, I had a 2016 R1 with the crossplane 4 cylinder that sounded superior to any ram out there. But again, that’s my personal opinion. But to sum it up, it’s a new state of the art power train for ram so better to reserve judgement till people gets some real feedback with time (and miles) from the motors.

 

[suicideking]

But again, that’s my personal opinion. But to sum it up, it’s a new state of the art power train for ram so better to reserve judgement till people gets some real feedback with time (and miles) from the motors.

That's my opinion on the new I6 turbo: I very much wanted the 5.7 this time around because it might be the last time I can get one. In the meantime, let thousands of others see if they can get to 100K miles and then see what reliability is going to be like. In 5+ years when I'm ready to get a new truck, there will be more research.

Meanwhile, when someone asks about how do they like the new engine, all they can say is 'It's faster! yay!'. I don't really need faster. I need something that is going to delay the time period before I need to buy a new truck again. I want to pay it off and still have many years before I need to replace it.

 

[suicideking]

Ok, concerning the EPA rules, explain why FORD still offers a v-8 in the truck line and hasn't killed the Mustang with the v-8 option ...

When I was looking at trucks about 6 months ago, I went into it with an open mind. I would've considered an F150 with the V8, but they were very slim pickings. Couldn't find one with the options I wanted within a few hundred miles. Everything was either their 2.7 or 3.5 turbo. Meanwhile, my wife's 2019 3.5 Expedition went in for cam phaser replacement (luckily under warranty). So if you REALLY wanted a V8 F150, you'd have to custom order one or settle for options you didn't choose.

 

[Docwagon1776]

When I was looking at trucks about 6 months ago, I went into it with an open mind. I would've considered an F150 with the V8, but they were very slim pickings. Couldn't find one with the options I wanted within a few hundred miles. Everything was either their 2.7 or 3.5 turbo. Meanwhile, my wife's 2019 3.5 Expedition went in for cam phaser replacement (luckily under warranty). So if you REALLY wanted a V8 F150, you'd have to custom order one or settle for options you didn't choose.

If you're buying new and aren't in a super hurry, why would you *not* order one? Several places do 3% under invoice for sold orders, tough to get that kind of deal on anything on the lot they are already paying for and you get exactly what you want.

 

[suicideking]

If you're buying new and aren't in a super hurry, why would you *not* order one? Several places do 3% under invoice for sold orders, tough to get that kind of deal on anything on the lot they are already paying for and you get exactly what you want.

I ended up buying a left over '23 about 6 months ago, right before the '25's came out. I bought it when they were doing 20% off. I've never custom ordered one, but would consider it if it ended up being less money than I could pay for one on the lot. I always thought that by custom ordering, you wouldn't get the best price. Checked into custom ordering the Ram, but they were no longer accepting orders for the '24, and I didn't want the '25 with the new engine. Didn't look into custom ordering a Ford.

 

[Docwagon1776]

I ended up buying a left over '23 about 6 months ago, right before the '25's came out. I bought it when they were doing 20% off. I've never custom ordered one, but would consider it if it ended up being less money than I could pay for one on the lot. I always thought that by custom ordering, you wouldn't get the best price. Checked into custom ordering the Ram, but they were no longer accepting orders for the '24, and I didn't want the '25 with the new engine. Didn't look into custom ordering a Ford.

Short version: Any vehicle sitting on the lot is costing the dealership money via a mechanism called 'holdback'. Think of it as a pot of money that's slowly leaking until the vehicle is sold. A custom order will get the full pot because it's sold instantly. Salesman commissions will *generally* be less for internet only sales/fleet sales as well. Some dealers take advantage of that to get volume sales targets by specializing in custom orders, they make less money on that given order but make money on bonuses and special allocations (example: Ford would ship more Broncos to a dealership that sold more Bronco Sports. Good business to sell and ship Sport orders at nearly zero profit to get more tasty profit Broncos)

When I was looking last, it was very easy to get 3% off invoice (not MSRP, actual invoice) for Ford and 5% for Ram. Then you also get all the normal incentives/rebates.

 

[mikeru]

If you're buying new and aren't in a super hurry, why would you *not* order one? Several places do 3% under invoice for sold orders, tough to get that kind of deal on anything on the lot they are already paying for and you get exactly what you want.

My thinking exactly. The only reason I'd not order one is if I absolutely needed a truck sooner or if the local dealership had exactly what I wanted on the lot (not likely).

 

[suicideking]

Short version: Any vehicle sitting on the lot is costing the dealership money via a mechanism called 'holdback'. Think of it as a pot of money that's slowly leaking until the vehicle is sold. A custom order will get the full pot because it's sold instantly. Salesman commissions will *generally* be less for internet only sales/fleet sales as well. Some dealers take advantage of that to get volume sales targets by specializing in custom orders, they make less money on that given order but make money on bonuses and special allocations (example: Ford would ship more Broncos to a dealership that sold more Bronco Sports. Good business to sell and ship Sport orders at nearly zero profit to get more tasty profit Broncos)

When I was looking last, it was very easy to get 3% off invoice (not MSRP, actual invoice) for Ford and 5% for Ram. Then you also get all the normal incentives/rebates.

How do you figure out invoice price? Figure mine was about $62K. So roughly what would invoice price be?

It wouldn't have helped me this time around because I wanted the 5.7, but maybe next time. Ordering does sound appealing vs. getting ****** around by dealers and their shenanigans. I had the perfect truck about 20 minutes away priced at the 20% off. Went to check it out, they had added about $6K of lame add ons and wouldn't remove them. So found something close at another dealer minus a few things I would've wanted. The second dealer was about an hour away, but told me on the phone they don't play the 'add on' game. So learned to ask about that too. I also assume that if you order one, they can't add a bunch of crap to it.

 

[rzr6-4]

It wouldn't have helped me this time around because I wanted the 5.7, but maybe next time. Ordering does sound appealing vs. getting ****** around by dealers and their shenanigans. I had the perfect truck about 20 minutes away priced at the 20% off. Went to check it out, they had added about $6K of lame add ons and wouldn't remove them. So found something close at another dealer minus a few things I would've wanted. The second dealer was about an hour away, but told me on the phone they don't play the 'add on' game. So learned to ask about that too. I also assume that if you order one, they can't add a bunch of crap to it.

Friend of mine recently bought a kia stinger. Don't remember initial asking price, let's say 30k.

It had everything he wanted, but still wanted to test drive it before buying. Paid $250 deposit for them to hold it until he got there the next day to drive it. After test driving and saying he would take it, suddenly it was 33k because of "increased demand". He said he had to think about it as he still wanted the car, but he followed my advice and told them to pound sand anyway just out of principle.

2 days later he found another dealer selling one at the original 30k. Bought it on the spot.

2 days after that, he looked at the first dealer's website, they had dropped their price back down to 30k. Must be "decreased demand".

Unless I have f-you money, I'll never go to a dealer. Facebook marketplace for me.

 

[Tulecreeper]

That's my opinion on the new I6 turbo: I very much wanted the 5.7 this time around because it might be the last time I can get one. In the meantime, let thousands of others see if they can get to 100K miles and then see what reliability is going to be like. In 5+ years when I'm ready to get a new truck, there will be more research.

Meanwhile, when someone asks about how do they like the new engine, all they can say is 'It's faster! yay!'. I don't really need faster. I need something that is going to delay the time period before I need to buy a new truck again. I want to pay it off and still have many years before I need to replace it.

Why would you think you will need to buy a new truck in 5 years? Is it because you think it will only last that long? I kept my first truck for 13+ years, and my second one for 23+. This one I've had for 1.5+ years and I expect it to last me until I can no longer drive anymore, which hopefully will be 20+ years down the line.

 

[suicideking]

Why would you think you will need to buy a new truck in 5 years? Is it because you think it will only last that long? I kept my first truck for 13+ years, and my second one for 23+. This one I've had for 1.5+ years and I expect it to last me until I can no longer drive anymore, which hopefully will be 20+ years down the line.

I really don't drive that many miles, so hoping it lasts 10+. I've had it for 6 months and have 5500 miles on it. Average would be even less because I was driving 200 miles every weekend for about 6 weeks, and won't be making that trip anymore. Commute is 25 miles round trip, longer trips are usually in my wife's vehicle.

 

[Docwagon1776]

How do you figure out invoice price? Figure mine was about $62K. So roughly what would invoice price be?

It wouldn't have helped me this time around because I wanted the 5.7, but maybe next time. Ordering does sound appealing vs. getting ****** around by dealers and their shenanigans. I had the perfect truck about 20 minutes away priced at the 20% off. Went to check it out, they had added about $6K of lame add ons and wouldn't remove them. So found something close at another dealer minus a few things I would've wanted. The second dealer was about an hour away, but told me on the phone they don't play the 'add on' game. So learned to ask about that too. I also assume that if you order one, they can't add a bunch of crap to it.

Order guide, which is online usually if you search for it but isn't generally supposed to be public. Easier, you just do a build/price on the website, print it, and send it to the places doing the invoice + pricing for a quote. They will just send you a copy of the order which includes both invoice and MSRP.

There's no set percentage, it will vary based on option packages, manufacturer, etc.

I don't have MSRP listed but it was about $80k IIRC, but you end up with something like this with the option codes you want. This is a 2023 Tremor I spec'd out and sent to 3 places that do invoice + and then the total cost with their doc fees before I bought my Power Wagon instead:

2023 F-150 Tremor SuperCrew® 4x4 – 5.5' Box 145" W1E

3.5L V6 EcoBoost® with Auto Start-Stop Technology 998

High package 402A

Auto Start-Stop Removal 52X

Front-Axle w/Torsen® Differential 61T

Partitioned lockable fold-flat storage 60P

Twin Panel Moonroof 43V



$65,393.41





$64,970 – Chapman

$65,112 – Granger

$65,700 - Laura

 

[suicideking]

Order guide, which is online usually if you search for it but isn't generally supposed to be public. Easier, you just do a build/price on the website, print it, and send it to the places doing the invoice + pricing for a quote. They will just send you a copy of the order which includes both invoice and MSRP.

There's no set percentage, it will vary based on option packages, manufacturer, etc.

I don't have MSRP listed but it was about $80k IIRC, but you end up with something like this with the option codes you want. This is a 2023 Tremor I spec'd out and sent to 3 places that do invoice + and then the total cost with their doc fees before I bought my Power Wagon instead:

2023 F-150 Tremor SuperCrew® 4x4 – 5.5' Box 145" W1E

3.5L V6 EcoBoost® with Auto Start-Stop Technology 998

High package 402A

Auto Start-Stop Removal 52X

Front-Axle w/Torsen® Differential 61T

Partitioned lockable fold-flat storage 60P

Twin Panel Moonroof 43V



$65,393.41





$64,970 – Chapman

$65,112 – Granger

$65,700 - Laura

At least with your example, looks like about 17.6% discount. So could be worth it to order a vehicle assuming I can get a similar discount. It would just depend on the discounts offered at the time, and if I was able to find one on the lot that has everything I want.

I've seen some pretty good discounts lately, but that might be because of the market, economy, and Stellantis issues. The prices I've been watching are discounts on '24. Not watching '25 at all. I saw some $70K+ trucks (Rebel and Laramie) selling for the low $50K range. Though probably not typical since there is the new engine and they are trying to move leftover stock.

 

[mikeru]

I saw some $70K+ trucks (Rebel and Laramie) selling for the low $50K range. Though probably not typical since there is the new engine and they are trying to move leftover stock.

One thing I've noticed is that since 2020 there is nothing typical anymore when it comes to vehicle pricing, new and used.

 

[turkeybird56]

One thing I've noticed is that since 2020 there is nothing typical anymore when it comes to vehicle pricing, new and used.

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