Non MDS Lifter options - Mother Mopar or Comp Cams?

[Wild one]

thanks for this article as I havent seen it (and I know this topic is belabored here and elsewhere) but again appreciate you and the article for my own purpose.

there must be a reason for several revisions of the lifters - but I understand that's debatable. I beleive in Mopar, have for a long time, and I also believe/ hope that the upgraded lifters will help solve some of the problem

I get that oil starvation/ stiction likely contributes highly to the catastrophic failure of the lifter so I kinda think we are on the same page - its an oil starvation issue - most notably to the #5, that is at the root of the problem.

Unfortunately I am not at a place dollar and time wise to do a full engine tear down and get the oil galleys modded - so my thought process on deleting the MDS is that its the best thing I can do to support more constant oil pressure.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but my understanding of the MDS system is when it kicks on/ off there can be disruption to the oil pressure in those cylinders - I can at least wrap my brain around that idea - which seems like it could contribute to starvation, and since I see really no benefit to the MDS system why keep it?

Thats a sincere question; aside from 'fuel economy' is there a true and clear benefit to keeping to MDS system?

I fully agree that higher quality lubrication/additives can lend hand to the issue as well - it appears you support Redline? Is that correct?

Beers!
S

MOPAR Block Plug for MDS Solenoid Holes - Qty 4 (MDS Hole Plugs for 5.7L, 6.1L, 6.4L HEMI Engines) 53032221AA

MOPAR 6.1L MDS Block Plug 53032221AA 53032221-AA

highhorseperformance.com

 

[OcallyRamFam]

They did redesign the block for VVT,but didn't address the oil issues that the redesign caused.They raised the cam tunnel to allow for the extra VVT oil passage,which compounded the lifter problem,by moving the cam and lifters even farther away from the crank,consequently there's even less oil splash off the crank to lube the lifters. That's why upping the idle rpm is so beneficial to keeping a VVT engine alive,more idle rpm,means more crank splash to lube the cam lobes and lifter roller.

Thanks WildOne yes I am aware I need the block plugs. appreciate it

What cam profile do you run if you dont mind? Comp Cams suggested a stage 1 profile for me with a lower rpm band (reasoning being that I am lifting the truck with 35s) but the reasoning above to up the idle rpm makes sense.

Assume you have modded shift points with your tune? What rear gear are you running?

Beers!
S

 

[OcallyRamFam]

also worth mentioning that Im also planning to replace oil pump to - Im under the impression that the 6.2 has higher volume and pressure over the stock 5.7 and is a direct fit - Still looking to confirm this, though Im guessing you guys already know

thanks again

 

[Wild one]

Thanks WildOne yes I am aware I need the block plugs. appreciate it

What cam profile do you run if you dont mind? Comp Cams suggested a stage 1 profile for me with a lower rpm band (reasoning being that I am lifting the truck with 35s) but the reasoning above to up the idle rpm makes sense.

Assume you have modded shift points with your tune? What rear gear are you running?

Beers!
S

Jay Greene 1.5HL cam / Ma Mopar high performance valve springs / new style lifters (aka Hellcat lifters) / Trend pushrods / Mopar rocker shaft tie bars /Stanke rocker shaft collars and billet aluminium MDS plugs / ARP head bolts / 3.55 gears / True Trac limited slip / stock convertor in the 8 speed,but could really stand a bit more convertor. Back when i put the truck together Jays 1.5HL was about the biggest cam available for the VVT engines and there were no high stall convertors for the 8 speed,now there's a **** pile of cams and convertors to pick from though. It's mild enough anybody can drive it,but it'll run 12.0's all day long at 4,000ft DA.Left lane #6003

 

[Wild one]

also worth mentioning that Im also planning to replace oil pump to - Im under the impression that the 6.2 has higher volume and pressure over the stock 5.7 and is a direct fit - Still looking to confirm this, though Im guessing you guys already know

thanks again

The Cats pump uses longer gears compared to a 5.7 or 6.4 oil pump and is a high volumn pump

 

[Burn2k12Ram]

Yup get hellcat is your best option and is a direct fit.

Will This FINALLY FIX Hemi Tick? #hellcat

If You Have a HEMI You NEED To Watch This Video! It's finally time for our Hellcat oil pump install and test results! In this video we are directly comparing...

www.youtube.com

 

[scott lass 18]

thanks Wild One, yes Im aware that there is no actual Hellcat lifter, but seemed the only way I could get the local SoCal dealerships to understand what I was looking for (upgraded non MDS lifter) was to say I had a 2015 Hellcat SRT - they want $300 bucks per 4 which seems absolutely ridiculously expensive - does this seem accurate?

I am seeing them online at a few places for around $600 for all 16 - which seems reasonable but a ton of misinformation flying around on the interweb and not sure if these are actually in stock upgraded non MDS units, or old NOS stock

Can you confirm that the ones you are running are the part number I referenced above? Or provide the part number your running?

I've been happy with all of the comp cam CAMSHAFTS that Ive run over the years, but no experience with their lifters and I too am a bit skeptical. Id prefer the bonafide upgraded Mopar one, if I can ensure thats actually what Im gonna get.

Much appreciated.

S

Love comp cams and if my 2010 goes I ll use them ! Dealer is sooo over price. And on eBay is the mds non type you can get and change out so all works fine when put together ! Good luck. Scott

 

[scott lass 18]

thanks Wild One, yes Im aware that there is no actual Hellcat lifter, but seemed the only way I could get the local SoCal dealerships to understand what I was looking for (upgraded non MDS lifter) was to say I had a 2015 Hellcat SRT - they want $300 bucks per 4 which seems absolutely ridiculously expensive - does this seem accurate?

I am seeing them online at a few places for around $600 for all 16 - which seems reasonable but a ton of misinformation flying around on the interweb and not sure if these are actually in stock upgraded non MDS units, or old NOS stock

Can you confirm that the ones you are running are the part number I referenced above? Or provide the part number your running?

I've been happy with all of the comp cam CAMSHAFTS that Ive run over the years, but no experience with their lifters and I too am a bit skeptical. Id prefer the bonafide upgraded Mopar one, if I can ensure thats actually what Im gonna get.

Much appreciated.

S

I know there stronger. More meat to them better dollor bearings. But it cost to much. I know years ago comp cam and lifters work great on a 327 Chevy ok

 

[OcallyRamFam]

I know there stronger. More meat to them better dollor bearings. But it cost to much. I know years ago comp cam and lifters work great on a 327 Chevy ok

I should rephrase, Ive had great success with comp cam lifters in my older mopar engines, but not had any experience with their rollers....I think at this point (especially since the CC lifters are backordered to infinity atm) I'm going with moms lifters based on discussions here and fact that I need to get this rebuild going

thanks all for input much appreciated

 

[crazy jerry]

No such thing as a Hellcat lifter,they're all the same lifter now,only differance being MDS and non-MDS lifters. I've had the factory upgraded (aka:what you're calling the Cat lifters) in my truck for several years with no issues,with over 500 passes at the track,where the truck shifts at 6500/6600 rpm,and roughly 40,000 miles of street driving. I've seen a few reports of the Comp lifters having issues,but not enough,i'd be scared to run them.It probably comes down to which lifters you can actually get your hands on.

have you seen this and what do you think about it ? https://hotrodenginetech.com/gen-iii-hemi-lifter-tick-solved/

 

[Wild one]

have you seen this and what do you think about it ? https://hotrodenginetech.com/gen-iii-hemi-lifter-tick-solved/

I've never ran a set of their lifters,but from what i've gathered up,they seem to be a fairly good lifter.
Alot of guys don't realize the lifters are the hardest thing to build in an engine,as they have the tightest machining tolerances of any engine part

 

[GsRAM]

Something that happened here I believe also proves it is NOT the lifters or cam, and that was the lubrication strategy tests. Clearly these strategies do work and are not related to viscosity, but additives. So if the cam and lifters were "junk", how could have hemi tick gone quiet in 80% of rams that adopt a high ep/aw base oil strategy that is the same viscosity in many cases as before? The best part, in the worst group you can chose, IE trucks with hemi tick, not one- knock wood -has had a cam fail, 100's of rams that tried this strategy. Now disclaimer, I incidentally heard one case like this week but I havent had a chance to follow up, so possibly one case out of well over 100 rams with hemi tick over a decade. What are the chances if you find lets say 150 hemi tick rams right now and didnt do this strategy for none of them to have a cam fail in a decade? Yes it doesnt prove anything if you need an XYZ = PROOF, but it surely hints at it? Thanks to ram forum members who bought into this and followed through over the year, members just trying to help each find at least options if not answers.

I think it is clear as day what causes these cam fails and hemi tick, but I don't know to the exact why, but only one thing explains everything and reconciles why we had success following the theory of EP additives. There is back pressure on lifters in the bore, this even explains why some needle bearings fail. When the cam lob hits the roller in the cases of cam damage and hemi tick and explains every single thing, the lifter fails to lift easily in the bore, it fails to lift as easily as it does in the healthy examples of hemi's. I'm not a mechanic, I don't tear down engines all day every day, I would imagine if I did I could have a decent idea to the why, but that is not my deal. In my opinion every arrow points to this fact. Lifters are pretty much dumb tech, the only moving part if the roller, and because maybe 10% or so of lifter fails do involve a roller, it confuses the root cause.

If anyone has a different opinion, that certainly is ok, I just have seen nothing that has me coming off this in 10 years. I would love to know more, if anyone has a different opinion post it, see if we can hash it out and learn something.

I hate mds, cant stand it, just one more thing that can break, but it isnt the bad guy in hemi tick. And I do have a question for someone who knows, is mds active at idle?

Great thoughts as usual Burla.
I don't know for sure, but always was of the belief that mds was not active at idle and at idle all 8 are lit. When I slow down for a traffic light, just before I stop, if eco is active, the eco note goes out and stays out until I'm moving again, if i am in a light throttle/light load situation.

My unscientific and unconfirmed reason is that when mds is active in my truck, I have an "eco" note on the DIC screen. I know it's in mds then because the exhaust note is different than when all 8 are lit, especially noticable on deceleration/off the throttle.

The other part is I dont believe the engineers would want our 5 to 7k trucks attempting to accelerate from a dead stop on 4 cylinders due to the weight involved. My understanding of mds and its operation is that it engages in light load, light throttle situations only. But I could be incorrect.

Just my .02 and observations.

 

[Brian Kormos]

I put that cam kit In my 2011 laramie. Love it.

Also using hellcat pump.

My kit was missing a spring on a valve stem deal and a retainer for the springs. Comp sent me a stem seal and ghosted me on the retainer.

Still playing with the Tune but likely to have Chris at player3 in Edmonton remote Tune for me.

 

[Wild one]

I put that cam kit In my 2011 laramie. Love it.

Also using hellcat pump.

My kit was missing a spring on a valve stem deal and a retainer for the springs. Comp sent me a stem seal and ghosted me on the retainer.

Still playing with the Tune but likely to have Chris at player3 in Edmonton remote Tune for me.

Chris is a pretty decent tuner,he's been tuning my stuff for years. Once it's running decent,it'd be an excuse for a trip down to civilization and let him put it on the dyno,lol