Non MDS Lifter options - Mother Mopar or Comp Cams?

[OcallyRamFam]

Hi All

I know alot of talk about lifters in this forum but I couldnt find anything specifically discussing non MDS lifter choices and availability - If Ive missed this, please point me in the right direction Forum gurus.
Some quick overview:
2012 1500 RWD 5.7 - 120k miles
lifter failure on #5 and it toasted cam lobe.

As a result, I have decided to delete the MDS functionality and understand the mods necessary to do so.
Comp Cams has recommended the Stage 1 HRT MK201-300-17 kit for my application.

Many of you I'm sure already realize the problem with this is Lifter availability at this time. The Comp Cams lifter 856Y-16 is on backorder indefinitely. While the heavy duty Mopar updated unit is questionably available - I say this as there seems to be a huge amount of confusion on which lifters are actually being offered - although local dealerships are saying they have the 2015 Hellcat SRT lifters in stock - they are significantly more expensive than the Comp Cams - of course Comp Cams says their lifter is better.....but

My question is who has real world experience with either (or preferably both) to lay claim on which NON MDS lifter is better - Comp Cams 856Y-16 or Mopar 05038784AC?

thanks much!

 

[Wild one]

Hi All

I know alot of talk about lifters in this forum but I couldnt find anything specifically discussing non MDS lifter choices and availability - If Ive missed this, please point me in the right direction Forum gurus.
Some quick overview:
2012 1500 RWD 5.7 - 120k miles
lifter failure on #5 and it toasted cam lobe.

As a result, I have decided to delete the MDS functionality and understand the mods necessary to do so.
Comp Cams has recommended the Stage 1 HRT MK201-300-17 kit for my application.

Many of you I'm sure already realize the problem with this is Lifter availability at this time. The Comp Cams lifter 856Y-16 is on backorder indefinitely. While the heavy duty Mopar updated unit is questionably available - I say this as there seems to be a huge amount of confusion on which lifters are actually being offered - although local dealerships are saying they have the 2015 Hellcat SRT lifters in stock - they are significantly more expensive than the Comp Cams - of course Comp Cams says their lifter is better.....but

My question is who has real world experience with either (or preferably both) to lay claim on which NON MDS lifter is better - Comp Cams 856Y-16 or Mopar 05038784AC?

thanks much!

No such thing as a Hellcat lifter,they're all the same lifter now,only differance being MDS and non-MDS lifters. I've had the factory upgraded (aka:what you're calling the Cat lifters) in my truck for several years with no issues,with over 500 passes at the track,where the truck shifts at 6500/6600 rpm,and roughly 40,000 miles of street driving. I've seen a few reports of the Comp lifters having issues,but not enough,i'd be scared to run them.It probably comes down to which lifters you can actually get your hands on.

 

[OcallyRamFam]

No such thing as a Hellcat lifter,they're all the same lifter now,only differance being MDS and non-MDS lifters. I've had the factory upgraded (aka:what you're calling the Cat lifters) in my truck for several years with no issues,with over 500 passes at the track,where the truck shifts at 6500/6600 rpm,and roughly 40,000 miles of street driving. I've seen a few reports of the Comp lifters having issues,but not enough,i'd be scared to run them.It probably comes down to which lifters you can actually get your hands on.

thanks Wild One, yes Im aware that there is no actual Hellcat lifter, but seemed the only way I could get the local SoCal dealerships to understand what I was looking for (upgraded non MDS lifter) was to say I had a 2015 Hellcat SRT - they want $300 bucks per 4 which seems absolutely ridiculously expensive - does this seem accurate?

I am seeing them online at a few places for around $600 for all 16 - which seems reasonable but a ton of misinformation flying around on the interweb and not sure if these are actually in stock upgraded non MDS units, or old NOS stock

Can you confirm that the ones you are running are the part number I referenced above? Or provide the part number your running?

I've been happy with all of the comp cam CAMSHAFTS that Ive run over the years, but no experience with their lifters and I too am a bit skeptical. Id prefer the bonafide upgraded Mopar one, if I can ensure thats actually what Im gonna get.

Much appreciated.

S

 

[Wild one]

thanks Wild One, yes Im aware that there is no actual Hellcat lifter, but seemed the only way I could get the local SoCal dealerships to understand what I was looking for (upgraded non MDS lifter) was to say I had a 2015 Hellcat SRT - they want $300 bucks per 4 which seems absolutely ridiculously expensive - does this seem accurate?

I am seeing them online at a few places for around $600 for all 16 - which seems reasonable but a ton of misinformation flying around on the interweb and not sure if these are actually in stock upgraded non MDS units, or old NOS stock

Can you confirm that the ones you are running are the part number I referenced above? Or provide the part number your running?

I've been happy with all of the comp cam CAMSHAFTS that Ive run over the years, but no experience with their lifters and I too am a bit skeptical. Id prefer the bonafide upgraded Mopar one, if I can ensure thats actually what Im gonna get.

Much appreciated.

S

I doubt there's any of the old lifters left anymore,as they were upgraded back in 16. I'm not sure what the part numbers were for the lifters ,and the boxes are long gone, it's been several years since i did my cam. The lifters were under $500 Canuck for the whole set,and i had them in 2 days,so that gives you an idea of how long ago it was,lol

 

[06 Dodge]

All Mopar Parts is a preferred vendor here so why not ask Benny to get you their discounted pricing on parts​

 

[OcallyRamFam]

All Mopar Parts is a preferred vendor here so why not ask Benny to get you their discounted pricing on parts​

good looks bud, much appreciated. I will do that!

 

[Burla]

There are a couple causes of hemi tick and the cam/lifter damage, mds lifters and function arent one of them.

 

[OcallyRamFam]

There are a couple causes of hemi tick and the cam/lifter damage, mds lifters and function arent one of them.

I appreciate the reply, Burla. Definitely not trying to debate with you, but for my own education I'm curious what you have found to be the causes of the cam/lifter failure.

I'm by no means an expert on this issue, but from what I have read, and experienced myself with my particular problem, it seems like cylinder 5 lifter failure is a common denominator. It also seems like deleting the MDS is very common. How do these two factors NOT relate?

I dont think any of us (including Ma Mopar) disagree that the OE lifter in this generation motor was garbage, given the several revisions by now, but it seems to me that if it was just a garbage lifter, than the failure would be happening across random cylinders (no doubt there is data to support this, but I see #5 pop up on the regular. So there is something else going on (oil starvation, stiction, etc IMO) that causes #5 to be affected. I am aware that some of the remans do some block work to improve oil galleys. I'm not aware if this specifically relates to #5

While technically the MDS functionality might not be solely to blame, I cant see that it helps. I have also never reaped the fuel economy 'benefits' of the MDS system.

So for my specific situation, I feel like deleting it rules out one of the contributing factors. Please let me know your thoughts. thanks!

 

[Burla]

Will all respect brother... First off the mds function lubricates lifters not the opposite and we have just as much hemi tick and cam fails in 2500 non mds hemi's. I totally disagree the lifters are junk, 100% disagree, there is nothing wrong with the lifters, here is a metalurgy, sorry for members who are tired of seeing this. The cam as well, no issue there, I do disagree with the guy below on one thing, the real issue is the hemi design that fails to supply proper lubrication, not the lack of additives, that is a way to combat this I do agree, but there is a design flaw here, I will add my guess for what it is worth in my next post.

 

[Burla]

Something that happened here I believe also proves it is NOT the lifters or cam, and that was the lubrication strategy tests. Clearly these strategies do work and are not related to viscosity, but additives. So if the cam and lifters were "junk", how could have hemi tick gone quiet in 80% of rams that adopt a high ep/aw base oil strategy that is the same viscosity in many cases as before? The best part, in the worst group you can chose, IE trucks with hemi tick, not one- knock wood -has had a cam fail, 100's of rams that tried this strategy. Now disclaimer, I incidentally heard one case like this week but I havent had a chance to follow up, so possibly one case out of well over 100 rams with hemi tick over a decade. What are the chances if you find lets say 150 hemi tick rams right now and didnt do this strategy for none of them to have a cam fail in a decade? Yes it doesnt prove anything if you need an XYZ = PROOF, but it surely hints at it? Thanks to ram forum members who bought into this and followed through over the year, members just trying to help each find at least options if not answers.

I think it is clear as day what causes these cam fails and hemi tick, but I don't know to the exact why, but only one thing explains everything and reconciles why we had success following the theory of EP additives. There is back pressure on lifters in the bore, this even explains why some needle bearings fail. When the cam lob hits the roller in the cases of cam damage and hemi tick and explains every single thing, the lifter fails to lift easily in the bore, it fails to lift as easily as it does in the healthy examples of hemi's. I'm not a mechanic, I don't tear down engines all day every day, I would imagine if I did I could have a decent idea to the why, but that is not my deal. In my opinion every arrow points to this fact. Lifters are pretty much dumb tech, the only moving part if the roller, and because maybe 10% or so of lifter fails do involve a roller, it confuses the root cause.

If anyone has a different opinion, that certainly is ok, I just have seen nothing that has me coming off this in 10 years. I would love to know more, if anyone has a different opinion post it, see if we can hash it out and learn something.

I hate mds, cant stand it, just one more thing that can break, but it isnt the bad guy in hemi tick. And I do have a question for someone who knows, is mds active at idle?

 

[OcallyRamFam]

thanks for this article as I havent seen it (and I know this topic is belabored here and elsewhere) but again appreciate you and the article for my own purpose.

there must be a reason for several revisions of the lifters - but I understand that's debatable. I beleive in Mopar, have for a long time, and I also believe/ hope that the upgraded lifters will help solve some of the problem

I get that oil starvation/ stiction likely contributes highly to the catastrophic failure of the lifter so I kinda think we are on the same page - its an oil starvation issue - most notably to the #5, that is at the root of the problem.

Unfortunately I am not at a place dollar and time wise to do a full engine tear down and get the oil galleys modded - so my thought process on deleting the MDS is that its the best thing I can do to support more constant oil pressure.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but my understanding of the MDS system is when it kicks on/ off there can be disruption to the oil pressure in those cylinders - I can at least wrap my brain around that idea - which seems like it could contribute to starvation, and since I see really no benefit to the MDS system why keep it?

Thats a sincere question; aside from 'fuel economy' is there a true and clear benefit to keeping to MDS system?

I fully agree that higher quality lubrication/additives can lend hand to the issue as well - it appears you support Redline? Is that correct?

Beers!
S

 

[Burla]

I support the use of heavy AW/EP additives and base oils, and redline does have all of these. I use redline 5w30 with rp filter.

Let me call corey @Hemi395 , I'm not sure if he has easy access to it or not, but it has been posted here about mds lubricating better. You know you can drive in tow haul 24/6 and that will keep mds off, just like getting out of od8 or 6 in rfe = manual mode. I'm not saying dont delete mds, just that mds isnt the cause of cam damage, neither is the lifters or the cam. Possibly in a very few cases needle bearing fail could have caused cam damage, but I think the largest part of the issue is for some reason the back pressure is prevalent.

 

[Hemi395]

5.7 HEMI Lifter Failure Could this FIX the lifter issue FOREVER?

Hey guys, revisiting the 5.7 HEMI lifter failure video I made a couple months ago. I wanted to address many off the comments that I got from the last video, ...

youtu.be

Watch this video before you just disable MDS. Personally I wouldn't do it unless you do a physical MDS delete.

 

[Burla]

Thanks brother, that was quick.

 

[Burla]

Also hints to why they didnt redesign block, where I think the issue lays. He says vvt, started in 09 and newer.

 

[Burla]

Just to clarify one point I made, the moving parts inside the lifter are irrelevant except for oil flow, we discussed the exact reason why they lubricate. The only moving part of the frame of the lifter is the roller. Irrelevant to the movement of the lifter in the bore. Right around 17 minute mark, shows exactly what I was talking about from the first time corey posted this.

 

[Burla]

23 minute mark he brings it home, his theory mds actually lubricates rollers cam better. His main theory have mds on at all times.

 

[OcallyRamFam]

thanks guys will view the video once I'm home - much appreciated again

you guys rock

 

[Wild one]

thanks guys will view the video once I'm home - much appreciated again

you guys rock

If you decide to do the MDS delete,make sure you get the delete plugs from Ma Mopar,they redirect the oil to the proper places it's needed.They're used in the early HD 5.7's,and the manual transmission 5.7 and 6.4 Challengers.Stanke builds billet aluminium versions,i have them in my truck,but they're overkill,and the factory delete plugs are cheaper.

 

[Wild one]

Also hints to why they didnt redesign block, where I think the issue lays. He says vvt, started in 09 and newer.

They did redesign the block for VVT,but didn't address the oil issues that the redesign caused.They raised the cam tunnel to allow for the extra VVT oil passage,which compounded the lifter problem,by moving the cam and lifters even farther away from the crank,consequently there's even less oil splash off the crank to lube the lifters. That's why upping the idle rpm is so beneficial to keeping a VVT engine alive,more idle rpm,means more crank splash to lube the cam lobes and lifter roller.