Possible Engine Swap...

[RASelkirk]

Hi All,

Buying a new '18 Ram Sport and my 20 yo Dakota R/T wasn't worthy of a trade-in due to bleached paint. Just sold my Buick GN powered S-10 and LS1 powered '72 Maverick and have open garage space. Now I'm considering swapping a new(er) Hemi into it and getting the paint repaired. Also considering a manual trans and possibly a Whipple. Go easy, I'm a cherry on Dodge stuff!

So, what engine/PCM combination is easiest to work on?
What is more likely to interface with my Dakota chassis CAN system so gauges, etc will work?
Are all the Hemi Gen III engine sensors (crank, cam, etc) the same from 2003 on?
Is there a list of various HP, torque, compression ratios, etc somewhere on here?

I may go look for a Dakota-specific forum in a minute, I used to be on the old DML back before broadband and forums existed!

Russ

 

[chrisp2493]

There have been a few guys that swapped a Hemi into a Dakota, you should find some great answers if you can track them down.

03-08 hemis are the early ones, they have a stock 9.6:1 compression. They have smaller heads and make about 350 hp. They all have a 32 tooth tone ring on the crank. Starting in 2006 they added the MDS system to **** down 4 cylinders on the highway. That can be eliminated fairly easily.

09+ hemis have lots of extra stuff. The heads and intakes flow much better and the make about 390 hp. They change to a 58 tooth tone ring. It’s important to match the computer to the tone ring to have the crank sensors work right. It is possible to swap them between motors I believe. They also have VVT (Variable Valve Timing) that electronically changes the cam timing through oil pressure. That can be locked out/eliminated as well. Also the compression is bumped up a touch, I can’t remember the exact number but it’s about 10.4:1 or something like that.

I’m gonna say the earlier hemis would be easier to swap, and depending on what power level you want you can build them to be very strong and powerful. But get ready to open your wallet pretty wide.


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[RASelkirk]

Good stuff, thanks. What about the rear of the block, are all Mopar v-8's having the same bolt pattern as far as trannies and/or bell housings?

Russ

 

[14hemiexpress]

Track down R/T_fire hes done the research on a t-56 swap and has some good Info on here. Also you can look into the 2500 5.7l hemi it doesnt come with the mds. I would go with the less electronics as possible.

 

[chrisp2493]

Good stuff, thanks. What about the rear of the block, are all Mopar v-8's having the same bolt pattern as far as trannies and/or bell housings?

Russ

The 4.7, 5.2 Magnum, 5.7 Hemi, 5.9 Magnum, 6.1 and 6.4 Hemi should all have the same small block mopar bolt pattern for the transmissions. As an example I’m putting in a 46re trans from a 5.2/5.9 engine behind my 5.7 Hemi block. It does take a special flex plate adapter but that’s about it


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[RASelkirk]

Track down R/T_fire hes done the research on a t-56 swap and has some good Info on here. Also you can look into the 2500 5.7l hemi it doesnt come with the mds. I would go with the less electronics as possible.

PM'ed him. It would prolly be easier to use a stand-alone engine controller and harness, and try to tie it in to the Dak's PCM so the CAN system is (hopefully!) unaffected. Cruise would be a nightmare since the Dak throttle is cable, so I'll look further into keeping that...

Russ

 

[S0CAL]

Dayum, Dakota with a 5.7 Hemi. Talk about stealthmode!

 

[RASelkirk]

I'm just now finding the Gen III Hemi was never offered with a cable throttle, true?

Russ

 

[chrisp2493]

I'm just now finding the Gen III Hemi was never offered with a cable throttle, true?

Russ

True. There is a cable that goes from the peddle to a device near the battery that changes it to an electrical connector. I think that’s only on the 03 and possibly 04. I think in 05 they switched to a fully electric throttle


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[Greg Seymour]

I am dealing with the whole MDS vs VVT right now. I did not research like you are doing. I am used to the old way if it had a 440 just find a 440 it did not matter what year. I built an 08 5.7 to put in my 13. It will not work without a lot of $$$. I am told. So I am going to get one for the 13 and build it. Do you want a 5.7? I will prob. be getting rid of this one.

 

[RASelkirk]

I am dealing with the whole MDS vs VVT right now. I did not research like you are doing. I am used to the old way if it had a 440 just find a 440 it did not matter what year. I built an 08 5.7 to put in my 13. It will not work without a lot of $$$. I am told. So I am going to get one for the 13 and build it. Do you want a 5.7? I will prob. be getting rid of this one.

I'm not that far along yet, but will prolly do a 5.7 if it happens. Was thinking the clutch pedal would be a problem, but that's less than a dozen parts. I'm still looking for potential boogers, problems with mechanical vs. DBW throttle, cruise control , and power steering (needs a pump) to name a few. DBW needs a $2300 Holley Dominator vs. their $1200 HP ECM. The Dom also has trans control, but it wouldn't matter with the old 42RE or a TKO-600. Lots of decisions!

Wish I knew more about the different CAN systems and how they would (or not) talk to each other!

Russ

 

[Greg Seymour]

They all have there ups and downs. Sounds like a fun project.

 

[CuylerTech]

A friend of a friend of facebook is currently swapping a hellcrate into a dakota right now haha.

 

[RASelkirk]

A friend of a friend of facebook is currently swapping a hellcrate into a dakota right now haha.

I don't do FB. Has he planned out his electronics yet? I'm not gonna start this unless/until I can get the comms figured out. I've been all over Google and can't seem to find if one system can talk to the other. I do have a really good factory manual for the Dak but since I don't know which engine/PCM will be best, I don't have the "other" half of the equation...

Russ

 

[CuylerTech]

I don't do FB. Has he planned out his electronics yet? I'm not gonna start this unless/until I can get the comms figured out. I've been all over Google and can't seem to find if one system can talk to the other. I do have a really good factory manual for the Dak but since I don't know which engine/PCM will be best, I don't have the "other" half of the equation...

Russ

Hes using the Hellcrate wiring loom + PCM, then using a digital dash setup.

 

[RASelkirk]

Got a reply from Chris at HotWireAuto.com:

For a complete working instrument cluster setup you will want a 2003-2008
Hemi with either a manual shift or the 545RFE (truck) transmission. You
will also need a 2005 Ram Hemi computer and you will need to upgrade your
cluster to one from a 2001-2004 Dakota


You will need to send us the Fuse Block harness from your for modification.
Remove the fuse block harness from your Truck. Unplug all connectors as
close to the fuse block harness as possible and remove the battery cables.
DO NOT CUT ANY WIRES!

So it may be as simple as that! Waiting on his reply to more questions. In the meantime, a couple Q's for here:

• Is a 2005 PCM a one year only? Chris is selling them for $800 new, $400 used, $100 for just programming.
• Does the '05 use the fully electronic throttle pedal and not the cable/electric?
• Any pitfalls to being locked into this year-range engine?
• What's "specific" about this range, tone wheel? ignition? cam sensor?
  
• Will later (good!) heads fit the 5.7?
• Will the front acc'y drive stuff interchange?
• Whipple only makes a kit for 2013+ Ram, will this kit physically fit an older model?

I'm not locked into the Whipple, but after hearing it in a video clip here I'm definitely interested!

Russ

 

[chrisp2493]

The 2005 Ram Hemi computer is one of the better years for tuning purposes. The 03-04 computer has a lot of tuning issues. I’m running an 05 pcm in my 03 Ram, I bought the computer off eBay from a wrecking yard donor for $100. It’s been working fine for a year now.

The later Hemi heads 09+ will fit but it raises the compression to around 12.1. You’ll need thicker headgaskets (in the .050-.070 range) to get it down to a good level. You’ll also need longer pushrods, valve covers and coil packs.


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[RASelkirk]

OK, I'm finding a LOT of these PCMs on E-Bay from various yards and individuals stating "2005". Is there an ID chart somewhere? A few of them advertise as 2005 in the header and after reading they say "pulled from a 2008, should fit", others show specifically that year only...

Russ

 

[chrisp2493]

I wish there was a chart, it would make it a ton easier. I don’t know how their I.D system works, but I know the gas tank size, engine, cruise control and bed length effect it. As far as swapping it into a Dakota I don’t know how to match them up. Best bet would be finding some of the Dakota guys that have done the swap and see what they used. But if it helps my PCM number is 56028958AI. That’s a quad cab, 5.7 Hemi with cruise, 26 gallon tank and a 6.5’ bed. There are two letters after the pcm number, typically “AC, AD, AE...etc etc...” that is just the flash calibration number. If it was taken to a dealer and reflashed for an update the change that letter, but know telling what exactly was done.


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