Synthetic Oil

[Burla]

We often leave diesel guys out of all the fun, but I thought since I posted those diesel oil pqia tech sheets we also should talk about diesel treatments. I know when I had a Cummins I used a cetane booster and something else that I totally forgot, I know one of them was stanadyne. I didn't need anti gel in CA. Redline also has 4 different diesel treatments for those looking for lubricity to help with low sulfur fuel and other areas as well. I know tdr had really good info on diesel treatments as well.

So if you have a Cummins (hi syn) read this ****. For first time, Cummins recommends fuel additives for its diesel engines. And since redline obviously does everything it touches as best as can be done, those additives will be as good as you can find. There are other great ones as well, I know power service rocks too.

I would be using 85 plus.

 

[Rampant]

Wow. This guy (possibly 540Rat Euro counterpart??) tested 256 different oils using a "one armed bandit" and made videos of each. He then ranked them and populated two databases, comprised of tables and charts. That's a lot of time and money spent. Too bad he couldn't have used a more accurate testing method.

 

[Hemi395]

WOW A+ for effort! Like you said too bad he didn't use a better testing method. I read somewhere, maybe bobs, that the fluid that does the best on the one armed bandit is bleach...

 

[Ramnewbie]

Something I just thought about, everyone's worried about how much tbn is left but not too much discussion about tan. On RLK's UOA that actually had a tan number his tan was 5 and tbn was 4, that was with 3 k on the oil if I'm reading it correct. Wouldn't this mean that even with a 4 tbn being left that his oil wouldn't have been fouled by the 5 tan?

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[R.L.K.]

Something I just thought about, everyone's worried about how much tbn is left but not too much discussion about tan. On RLK's UOA that actually had a tan number his tan was 5 and tbn was 4, that was with 3 k on the oil if I'm reading it correct. Wouldn't this mean that even with a 4 tbn being left that his oil wouldn't have been fouled by the 5 tan?

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I believe that one was with 5,500 miles , but I was thinking the same thing as the total acid # was higher than the base # ???

If I remember correctly that was early on prior to me having an OCC , And I was using Redline S1 fuel system treatment about every third tank or so back then ...may be on to something there Sir .

I don't know for sure but I've always thought when the TBN & TAN equal out then it's time to boost with a calcium additive or change the oil ??

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[Burla]

Something I just thought about, everyone's worried about how much tbn is left but not too much discussion about tan. On RLK's UOA that actually had a tan number his tan was 5 and tbn was 4, that was with 3 k on the oil if I'm reading it correct. Wouldn't this mean that even with a 4 tbn being left that his oil wouldn't have been fouled by the 5 tan?

Posted about that before, generally speaking you just need tbn, as TAN tests used to be expensive so not many people opt for that. Like I said as well, you can get PH testing which is another tool and cheaper the tbn I believe. Generally tbn and tan meet at 3, it would be helpful and likely necessary for Ronnie to get a TAN with his next uoa. Machinelube.

 

[chrisbh17]

I believe that one was with 5,500 miles , but I was thinking the same thing as the total acid # was higher than the base # ???

If I remember correctly that was early on prior to me having an OCC , And I was using Redline S1 fuel system treatment about every third tank or so back then ...may be on to something there Sir .

I don't know for sure but I've always thought when the TBN & TAN equal out then it's time to boost with a calcium additive or change the oil ??

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http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/2170/oil-drain-interval-tan-tbn

"The theory was that when new, an oil’s TBN is high and its TAN is low, and the longer the oil is used, TBN decreases while TAN increases. The point at which they meet is the optimal time to change the oil."

 

[Rampant]

Something I just thought about, everyone's worried about how much tbn is left but not too much discussion about tan. On RLK's UOA that actually had a tan number his tan was 5 and tbn was 4, that was with 3 k on the oil if I'm reading it correct. Wouldn't this mean that even with a 4 tbn being left that his oil wouldn't have been fouled by the 5 tan?

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What it means is that the oil is more acidic than it is alkaline at that time. The bad thing about UOAs is that there is no way to differentiate between harmful and benign acids. This is why I don't pay to have TAN tested. If they did break the acidic content down further, it would definitely be worth it. Basically... it means nothing and is the main reason using TBN in this case makes more sense, although not ideal.

Although it is true that TBN and TAN are inversely proportionate, (one goes up, the other goes down) TAN is much more complicated to pin down. When it comes down to it, most bases are just that. Acids, on the other hand, are very complex. There are harmful, benign, and some helpful types. If we all used TAN as a basis of changing our oils once the solution became more acidic than base, we'd be back to the old 3k OCI, no matter the oil.

 

[Burla]

The real key is still wear numbers, even if your tan is higher then you like, but the wear is normal, you are good. This is why labs have been more lenient on when recommending you change oil, blackstone says 1tbn and I do believe Polaris has something more safe, I would go with 2-3 range as stated before. If wear numbers are high, then you need to do many uoa's with tan and be careful, until then you are good. Also, don't forget the calcium additives like bgmoa for guys with long intervals, just saying. That will lower TAN, just like tums lowers stomach acid.

 

[Burla]

Just to give you an idea of the PH scale, yes I know many of you have seen this in third grade, but as this relates to engine oil. If your substrate or substance is on one side of neutral, adding something from the other side of neutral will move the substance towards neutral. As for as metal corrosion, you would have to go fairly far down the PH scale to get corrosion. Using PH to test oil, it is the same thing as tbn/tan just a different way about going about it. No I don't recommend using sea water to combat acid buildup, lol.

About TAN-Total Acid Number provides an indication of acid concentration, but not acid strength.

 

[Ramnewbie]

What I was getting at with the tbn/ tan thing is when the tan gets higher than the tbn are the acids etching say cam, lifters, cylinder walls? The etching in itself not being noticeable untill a given point just before failure. I don't know the answer, just asking more educated minds.

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[Burla]

As far as setting the perfect interval which is all I can offer, you would need to test an oil 10 ten times, one at 1k, one at 2k, all the way to 10k. Determine at what point the wear numbers are growing exponentially. For example, the first uoa might have 5 iron, the second might have 10, and so on til you get to say 7, and that iron might jump to 40 instead of 35, that is when acid may be the issue. Of course it couldn't just be one guy doing it once, you would need a fleet to analysis this. And there happens to be plenty of fleet white paper out there, just got to look it up. There is a point where the testing would cost more then the damage, thus why we can't really have exact answers. If this gov't really wants to protect resources, this is something they should do. And/or some private company should invent a way for oil users to be able to test their own PH at home. But they need to know at what point on the PH scale does wear start to increase over normal use wear. Also develop PH neutralizers to extend resources safely. Base oils can take more then 10k mile intervals, they can take more then 20k mile intervals, if the PH stays neutral and they use base oils that stay stable.

 

[Hemi395]

So we should pour Draino in our crankcase to make it less acidic??[emoji16]

 

[Burla]

Probably not, but I wonder if soda is oil soluble. Anyhow, Calcium is the perfect metal to add, except for those DI terds, lol.

 

[Rampant]

As I said before, the UOAs we get do not break down the types or strengths of acids. They only show the concentration, which doesn't tell you much. It would cost you more to find out what types and strengths of acids there are in your oil than it would to change it.

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[chrisbh17]

So we should pour Draino in our crankcase to make it less acidic??[emoji16]

Thats just crazy....you should use baking soda in the gas tank.

 

[Burla]

Thats just crazy....you should use baking soda in the gas tank.

oil reservoir, but like we are saying that only solves one problem but likely creates another. You need to find something that solves the problem and adds additional benefit like detergency, IE calcium.

 

[Burla]

Whenever rat hack posts, just copy and paste this follow up, it is his fatal flaw when testing the quality of base oil.

What rat540 hack says about hths....

HTHS (High-Temperature/High-Shear) test data only provides information on how capable various motor oils are at maintaining their viscosity under high heat and high stress conditions. But, that HTHS viscosity data DOES NOT provide any information at all about an oil’s wear protection capability. Because a motor oil’s viscosity DOES NOT determine its wear protection capability. and so yada yada

What MACHINE lube says..

Viscosity at Operating Conditions
In the early years of automotive engines, oils were simply formulated and obeyed Newton’s equation for viscosity - the more force used to make the fluid flow (shear stress), the faster it would flow (shear rate). Essentially, the ratio of shear stress to shear rate - the viscosity - remained constant at all shear rates. The engine oils of that time were all essentially single grade and carried no SAE “W” classification.

This viscometric relationship changed in the 1940s when it was discovered that adding small amounts of high-molecular-weight polymers appeared to give the oil the desired flow characteristics for both low-temperature starting and high-temperature engine operation. Accordingly, these polymer-containing oils were listed by the SAE viscosity classification system as multigrade engine oils, as they met the requirements of both viscosity temperature zones.

Since that time, multigrade oils (e.g., SAE 10W-40, 5W-30, 0W-20, etc.) have become very popular. However, they were no longer Newtonian in flow characteristics, as the viscosity was found to decrease with increasing shear rate. This was considered important in lubricating engines that operated at high shear rates (as measured in millions of reciprocal seconds), in contrast to the several hundred reciprocal seconds of the low-shear viscometers then being used to characterize engine oils.


Consequently, the need arose to develop a high shear rate viscometer to reflect the viscosity in engines under operating temperatures. In the early 1980s, an instrument and a technique were developed that could reach several million reciprocal seconds at 150 degrees C as well as exert high shear rates at other temperatures on both fresh and used engine oils. The instrument was called the tapered bearing simulator viscometer. The technique was accepted by ASTM as test method D4683 for use at 150 degrees C (and more recently as D6616 for use at 100 degrees C). This critical bench test of engine oil quality became known as high temperature, high shear rate (HTHS) viscosity. Minimum limits were then imposed for various grades in the SAE viscosity classification system.

Interestingly, it was later shown that this instrument was unique and basically absolute in providing measures of both shearing torque or shear stress and shear rate while operating. It is the only known viscometer capable of doing this.


So, Rat hack fundamental flaw is not making a test that understand this dynamic in engine oil. To heat oil to operating temp and do a one arm bandit and say this is the end all in engine oil testing is something a 9th grader would do. Your 15 minutes of fame is long over dude, if you want respect of the oil guys rolling around develop a long term high heat test that sees through low quality base oils, your test DOES NOT. How blind are you to not see this???

 

[chrisbh17]

oil reservoir, but like we are saying that only solves one problem but likely creates another. You need to find something that solves the problem and adds additional benefit like detergency, IE calcium.

OK.

Baking soda and MILK.

 

[Burla]

Is milk oil soluble? Might have some compatibility problems, but I hear it does a body good.