Calling all SQ guys!!!

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robo99

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Big and loud is easy, as is loud and clear. I have done audio in my vehicles for years, but never really tried to nail down the SQ, staging and imaging aspects. I have recently started my build and can NOT seem to figure out what I am doing wrong.
Pioneer 80PRS head
Soundstream Rub5.800 amp
Soundstream XS_28 tweets in the sails
CDT HD-6 in the front doors
All the wires are knukoncepts, all ran new.
I can not seem to get this thing to center up. I can drive a nail into an imaginary being on my dash from the tweets, but the mids keep dragging the stage down. I have not had a chance to deaden everything yet, temps too cold, and the 6.5s are mounted in 1/2 MDF adapters I cut. Any help would be appreciated.
 

DavidRam

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IMHO, throw a mini dsp in the mix, that will give you much better tuning capablitites... You may have reached the limits of what the HU can offer.
 
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troutspinner

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What are your TA setting? They should be somewhere around;

Right Mid 0
Right Tweet .3 +/-
Left Mid 1.5 +/-
Left Tweet 2 +/-
Sub .4 +/-

These are crude settings but should be a good starting point.

Another thing is your tweets could be cutting through your mids. Might want to use a decibel meter or phone utility to match them up.
 
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robo99

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What are your TA setting? They should be somewhere around;

Right Mid 0
Right Tweet .3 +/-
Left Mid 1.5 +/-
Left Tweet 2 +/-
Sub .4 +/-

These are crude settings but should be a good starting point.

Another thing is your tweets could be cutting through your mids. Might want to use a decibel meter or phone utility to match them up.

My TA settings are in distance, I dont really care for that, makes it backwards in setting, but thats what I have. My LT being closest is my zero point, all other speakers fall on about a 10 inch offset conveniently enough if you measure yourselves in your trucks. Thats not exact but 10 was a close start. Actual measurement was like 26 to LT 36 to LM 46 to RT and 56 to RM or something, may have been an add 10 situation to each. I "believe" im at 0 LT, around 12 LM, 18 RT, and 25 RM. These arent exact, but close guesses without walking out in the cold. LT being closest, I gave it zero so it received the most delay, and the right tweet has been brought down to -2 to match things up on those. Tweets line up nicely on the dash, Mids sound like they are behind the AC controls, throw them all together, and things bounce. Polaritys are correct, I have checked phasing of each speaker, and reversed them, to ensure it wasnt a reverb issue.
 
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robo99

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IMHO, throw a mini dsp in the mix, that will give you much better tuning capablitites... You may have reached the limits of what the HU can offer.

Im not against that, but the wifey might give me dirty looks an d make me sleep on the couch.
 
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robo99

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Use this site and see if your TA settings come out similar. Make sure to click on yes for the Pioneer setup. http://tracerite.com/calc.html

Mine were no where near, so I input the new numbers on the HU, the mid stage seemed to move a bit higher, almost just below the dash, and the tweets stayed pretty centered. I actually also gained a little width out the left side. Not a perfect setting but from limited playing, may hold some good possibilities, Thanks Trout!
 

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He's running an 80PRS. All the processing he needs.

Possibly, but still feel if any Sirus, Spotify,or certain recording it can help lowend as well.
I'm sure the radio can do some, but want more tuning, the FR offers more advanced settings IMHO.
 
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robo99

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Possibly, but still feel if any Sirus, Spotify,or certain recording it can help lowend as well.
I'm sure the radio can do some, but want more tuning, the FR offers more advanced settings IMHO.

I dont do XM/Sirius, I dont bluetooth music, I own CD's and my IASCA 97 test and setup is stored on SD in .wav lossless and in the HU.
 

Graygoose

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Well, good luck with your setup.
 
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robo99

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Well, good luck with your setup.

Not being a douche, just saying that Im not basing this on mp3s or Fm stations. I have good recordings, and plenty of space left on the processing end minus a 70w per channel headroom. I am honestly looking for help, not just to buy more stuff to throw into the stream and add distortion or complications. I would like something simple and clean, if obtainable, with what I have.
 

troutspinner

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Glad to see that pushed you into a "direction" if you will. I don't have the link right now (on the phone) but there is a thread over at DIYMA about aligning by ear. The link is somewhere in this forum as well. Once you understand the approach and hearing the Doppler affect, you'll get it.
 
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robo99

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Glad to see that pushed you into a "direction" if you will. I don't have the link right now (on the phone) but there is a thread over at DIYMA about aligning by ear. The link is somewhere in this forum as well. Once you understand the approach and hearing the Doppler affect, you'll get it.

I read that, but no sub yet to start measurement with. Thats where I started reverse engineering with my LT at 0.
 

AmoAgave

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Maybe I missed it, but where are your crossover points? You've shut off the tweeters and just tried the HD-6's full range(just for the alignment) and tried aligning those first? (Great speakers by the way, I have two pair but not using them in the truck). If not it could at least help track down where the real issue is.
I had similar issues until I aligned them in pairs by ear (doors, then mids, then all four together and fine tuned a bit from there). Assuming the Pioneer can do that? Never used it but hear it's a great deck. I'm using an old Alpine 701 and trying it by measurement got me nowhere. Had to do it by ear.
And 6 sheets of rammat 1 of ensolite in and on the doors also helped quite a bit. More then I thought it would. These door panels are the worst rattle, vibrating plastic POS I've ever tried to quiet down. Definitely lowers the perceived location of the music to my ears.

Can you aim those Soundstreams? If you can get the HD-6's aligned well, moving the tweeter aiming to match them, then TA them could get good results.

Side note: how do you like the Rubicon? I heard they copied their old Made In USA design (just built in China now) and they're actually pretty good.
 

Etroze86

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You are definitely on the right track with measurements now you will have to get the rest by ear or maybe try your tweets in a different location.
 

autokraftgt

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Take your time...it will come around eventually. I have the 80PRS and I have been tuning for 2.5 years on a simple 2-way
 
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robo99

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Maybe I missed it, but where are your crossover points? You've shut off the tweeters and just tried the HD-6's full range(just for the alignment) and tried aligning those first? (Great speakers by the way, I have two pair but not using them in the truck). If not it could at least help track down where the real issue is.
I had similar issues until I aligned them in pairs by ear (doors, then mids, then all four together and fine tuned a bit from there). Assuming the Pioneer can do that? Never used it but hear it's a great deck. I'm using an old Alpine 701 and trying it by measurement got me nowhere. Had to do it by ear.
And 6 sheets of rammat 1 of ensolite in and on the doors also helped quite a bit. More then I thought it would. These door panels are the worst rattle, vibrating plastic POS I've ever tried to quiet down. Definitely lowers the perceived location of the music to my ears.

Can you aim those Soundstreams? If you can get the HD-6's aligned well, moving the tweeter aiming to match them, then TA them could get good results.

Side note: how do you like the Rubicon? I heard they copied their old Made In USA design (just built in China now) and they're actually pretty good.

I put the settings in from Tracerite, the one Troutspinner linked, and they were way different than my settings that I had started with. I know nothing of this ascpect of car audio, but I do learn quick. Things across the dash seemed to really open up, but still a little low in the mids, so I played with those settings this morning before work. I threw in the Iasca 97 test and setup and played with the "This is my voice" tracks, the lower frequency ones. I did a little fiddling here and there and saw how differences actually could move sound points. I havent nailed anything down, but the only thing really sounding low now is the lower midbass, which resonance from being un dampened , Im sure, could be a big cause of that. I reset Xovers to start playing with them once I get a more centered "picture" somewhat established. I am at 1.6khz low pass for mids and 2.0 HP for tweets on 24db.

The tweeters are not built to be aimed, but Im sure I could come up with something if thats what I have to do, and thinking of beveling the adapters I built for the 6.5s, or making a ring and fiberglassing to the adapter, to give them a slight bit of an angle actually pointing at the upper part of the cab. They are pretty large on the backside, so getting them to tilt and have room to move may be a fun task. I wil have to check all that next time I pull the door panels.

As for the Soundstream, it is a good enough amp for the price. Its a little big, had to mount it to the passenger wall, but should have plenty of heatsink area. Quality on the outside seems tough, my then 17 year old, used it for a year and abused it, Im sure, when I first got it, and it still fires up. I would like a little more headroom with it, but for a 5 channel, its pretty clean, easily tuned, and seems pretty solid. A definite good buy for 170 bucks or whatever its going for now, for a good budget 5 channel.

Thanks for all the replies, I'm sure I'm not the only one with these questions, and I'm not scared to ask.
 

AmoAgave

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I put the settings in from Tracerite, the one Troutspinner linked, and they were way different than my settings that I had started with. I know nothing of this ascpect of car audio, but I do learn quick. Things across the dash seemed to really open up, but still a little low in the mids, so I played with those settings this morning before work. I threw in the Iasca 97 test and setup and played with the "This is my voice" tracks, the lower frequency ones. I did a little fiddling here and there and saw how differences actually could move sound points. I havent nailed anything down, but the only thing really sounding low now is the lower midbass, which resonance from being un dampened , Im sure, could be a big cause of that. I reset Xovers to start playing with them once I get a more centered "picture" somewhat established. I am at 1.6khz low pass for mids and 2.0 HP for tweets on 24db.

The tweeters are not built to be aimed, but Im sure I could come up with something if thats what I have to do, and thinking of beveling the adapters I built for the 6.5s, or making a ring and fiberglassing to the adapter, to give them a slight bit of an angle actually pointing at the upper part of the cab. They are pretty large on the backside, so getting them to tilt and have room to move may be a fun task. I wil have to check all that next time I pull the door panels.

Personally I wouldn't bother with trying to aim the CDT's in the doors. Seems like a lot of work. Just for kicks disconnect/turn off the tweeters and just see if you can get the HD-6's aligned and up high. Much easier to aim and adjust the tweeters to match the mids then vice versa! And try it by ear. I think you'll be surprised. Worked for me anyway! :)

I would also ditch the 24db slope. 12db should blend it much better for that distance. And you're crossing it right in the 'voice' area so it's noticable. I doubt that tweeter can handle 2k and 12db hp though (?) but the mids of course can. Try the mids at 1200/12db or something if you haven't already. You may be very surprised what you fall into on accident when it comes to slopes, phase and time alignment. One of the cool things about modern audio tech, you can do it from the drivers seat!
 
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