Cam Failures & poor starting procedures

[rwreuter]

Just a question....so don't everyone shoot me all at once.

Long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, my dad and father in-law (along with many articles read), told me to to never just start your engine and drive off, especially in cold weather....

Is it possible, something to consider as to the reason for cam and lifter failures, that a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR could be that many people do not allow their engines to warm up properly, i.e. giving the oil time to move up and through the engine and thus cause premature failure of said engine parts. Driving an engine under load immediately after a cold start cannot be good for the internal components.

Of course this may only be a contributing factor to poor oil and a less than optimal lifter and cam design, but never the less something that plays a roll in the Hemi Tick and eventual failure of the cam.



More and more of me reading this and other forums, has causied me to rethink exactly what oil i put in my Hemi.....for now the dealer has changed the oil with Pennzoil Gold(synthetic blend) and I am not sure if it is providing the necessary protection to the engine. The conversations about Red Line are very interesting. For a few more dollars per quart (gallon) I can put a better oil in it and have a peace of mind.

What I can tell you is my previous truck was a 1999 Dakota (V6) and I finally sold it and it had 288k on it and I changed the oil pretty regularly, but I wasn't particular to the kind of oil....and I really had no problems with it.

 

[69GWC]

I allways let my motor warm up before driving off, after work is the shortest time as it only set for 5 mins before I take off but in the mornings it gets 10 to 15 mins or more depending on summer or winter weather.

Yeah these Hemi's can be picking on oil, I said screw it and went to RL 5w30 I mean whats a few bucks more when these motors cost so much to replace.

 

[JasonK94Z]

I switched from Pennzoil platinum 5w-20 to Redline 5w-30 recently. My engine quieted down. It was worth the extra expense for me. I only put around 7,000 miles a year on my truck.

I let my truck warm up a few minutes when it’s cold out. I also take it really easy driving until my oil temp gets up to 120 or so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[CostaRam]

Well, as far the newest studies show is heating up the car ideiling worst than (slowly) drive immediatly after firening the engine up.
It seems that most f the engine wear is during cold starts and the engine heat up much faster when driving it.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a19086/warming-up-your-car-in-the-cold-just-harms-engine/

 

[Burla]

I like the idea of warming an engine up whether that helps or not, even though I also believe the studies on warming engines and increased wear. But I think it is two different things, those engines do not have a design flaw as a consideration, we do. Lifters don't lift as fast at idle as they do under acceleration, I like them to have a little more oil when they speed up.

It could be thin 5w20 as well, or even low zinc oil which they all are these days. Poor quality parts as another possibility, or all of the above. Do you think you would get the correct reason from the manu or the gov't?

 

[69GWC]

I would much rather have my motor running cold at 1500rpms at idle than have it running higher rpms getting up to speed running down the freeway.
Also your transmission is not up to temps either. When I do take off I use tow haul so it runs through the gears better.
As well as the oil is moving through the motor and trans One of my main things is not only oil but all the metal parts getting warmed up.

I have less than a 1/8th mile from my house to a road that is a 2 lane 65mph road that I have to turn onto and get up to speed rather quickly, no babying it to let it warm up.

Maybe if you had so slow easy travel untill it warmed up it would be better then setting at idle.

jmo

 

[chrisbh17]

I still think it has more to do with idling on a warmed up engine than driving before the engine is warmed up.

Even after remote starting 5-10 minutes before driving off, my oil temp still reads "< 122" and the pressure is in the high 50s to 60 at idle. I think the pressure is what is key....whatever we have going on in the top end of our engines, I feel like pressure that high will tend to overcome it.

Now, a warmed up engine at idle is getting low to mid 30s psi....if there is some blockage, casting defect/flashing or something else going on, its possible oil isnt getting to every place it needs to. Granted, 30 psi isnt LOW, but it might not be high enough to overcome whatever needs to be overcome.

All the extra moly from Red Line, etc. will "coat" the metal, helping prevent wear even if oil isnt flowing. Once off idle, the oil pressure goes up pretty quickly, so you only need to prevent wear while idling on full warmed up oil. A -30 oil will help in that respect because it wont be as thin as -20 at full temperature, so it might keep the pressure up a bit. I think someone here has also managed to increase their idle RPM a bit and that makes a big difference for oil pressure as well.

I personally try to keep the engine under 2000 RPM until the "<" in "< 122" goes away. Luckily my commute is mostly side streets, but it is a short commute too so once its up to temp I try to take "the long way" to get a little more temperature into the oil. Otherwise it will never be able to boil off any condensation.

 

[rwreuter]

Since I got this Ram and it has digital temp gauges, I, as a general rule, do not move the vehicle until the coolant temperature reaches at least 104 degrees. There has to be some point in the startup that is optimal for higher RPM's and a load on the engine components.

When it begins reading on the VIC, that sounds like a good starting point. I just see soooooo many people, start up and just drive off, that has to be detrimental to the engine and with our lifter and cam issue, if we do the same, IMO, premature failure could occur.

 

[rwreuter]

I like the idea of warming an engine up whether that helps or not, even though I also believe the studies on warming engines and increased wear. But I think it is two different things, those engines do not have a design flaw as a consideration, we do. Lifters don't lift as fast at idle as they do under acceleration, I like them to have a little more oil when they speed up.

It could be thin 5w20 as well, or even low zinc oil which they all are these days. Poor quality parts as another possibility, or all of the above. Do you think you would get the correct reason from the manu or the gov't?

Correct reason from either of the two? No way. I think the reason the manufacture doesn't deal with the issue is because the instances are a low percentage of the models and the exact cause cannot be determined and then when or if a failure occurs, it is out of warranty.

 

[Burla]

Well they changed the weight of the oil for the eco diesel because of the rate of internal damage, but the CAFE standards are messing up what they can do with light duty gas trucks as far as API oils and weights go. It is up to the consumer to educate themselves and over ride the gov't and the manu, because in the end it is your equipment.

 

[crackerjack1957]

That's why all race functions get their engines, oil & coolant to operating temps before the event.

 

[blackbetty14]

Cold starts are the most damaging to engines. Oil film and suspension are that keep the lubricated surfaces lubed. The Engine sits and the oil drains out from everything, cam lobes, lifters bleed down, pushrods, all bearing surfaces as well as cylinder walls. When you first crank all that friction depends on how much oil has stuck to the parts that are now under force. Until the oil pump can repressurize the system and create and oil cushion.

Reason people had to let the cars warm up for some time in the past was the lack of technology. Running a cold carb Engine with the choke on makes it extra rich or an older EFI Engine where the narrow band 02 sensors required heat from the exhaust and engine temp to become active. Most older cars won’t go into closed loop (02 sensors) until a predetermined temp in the ECM (my experience with the first MPFI TPI is about 130-160*F. So the engines are setup pig rich at cold temps till it heats up and the 02s become active. All that extra fuel isn’t the best for the cylinder walls etc.

These new trucks and engines use self heating 02 sensors which are up to temp in 30sec and become active. I always let my Engine warm up for a min or so or until the Rpms drop below 900rpms. This means cold start programming has completed and the 02s are sending back data.

Besides all that you have oil viscosity vs temp and the chemicals in the oil themselves that help (like ZZDP) for older engines with flat tapper cams and breaking in. Newer roller engines don’t need it but it is actually a good protectant during cold starts or dry starts due to how it bonds to the surface of Engine materials.

On our trucks cam and lifter failures are due to many things but the main one being design. The DOD/MDS lifters ECO mode have a lifespan of about 90k miles. In my mind that’s a defective or poorly designed part. But dodge gets an extra 1mpg and it keeps the smog police happy, plus they can charge you for the reservice of replacing everything when they go. A lot of guys will put non MDS lifters and the engines last a lot longer, swap the lifters and disable MDS in the PCM and your done.

 

[Ramnewbie]

Cold starts are the most damaging to engines. Oil film and suspension are that keep the lubricated surfaces lubed. The Engine sits and the oil drains out from everything, cam lobes, lifters bleed down, pushrods, all bearing surfaces as well as cylinder walls. When you first crank all that friction depends on how much oil has stuck to the parts that are now under force. Until the oil pump can repressurize the system and create and oil cushion.

Reason people had to let the cars warm up for some time in the past was the lack of technology. Running a cold carb Engine with the choke on makes it extra rich or an older EFI Engine where the narrow band 02 sensors required heat from the exhaust and engine temp to become active. Most older cars won’t go into closed loop (02 sensors) until a predetermined temp in the ECM (my experience with the first MPFI TPI is about 130-160*F. So the engines are setup pig rich at cold temps till it heats up and the 02s become active. All that extra fuel isn’t the best for the cylinder walls etc.

These new trucks and engines use self heating 02 sensors which are up to temp in 30sec and become active. I always let my Engine warm up for a min or so or until the Rpms drop below 900rpms. This means cold start programming has completed and the 02s are sending back data.

Besides all that you have oil viscosity vs temp and the chemicals in the oil themselves that help (like ZZDP) for older engines with flat tapper cams and breaking in. Newer roller engines don’t need it but it is actually a good protectant during cold starts or dry starts due to how it bonds to the surface of Engine materials.

On our trucks cam and lifter failures are due to many things but the main one being design. The DOD/MDS lifters ECO mode have a lifespan of about 90k miles. In my mind that’s a defective or poorly designed part. But dodge gets an extra 1mpg and it keeps the smog police happy, plus they can charge you for the reservice of replacing everything when they go. A lot of guys will put non MDS lifters and the engines last a lot longer, swap the lifters and disable MDS in the PCM and your done.

If you just permanently disable MDS will that work or are the MDS lifters just weak by nature and still fail?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[blackbetty14]

If you just permanently disable MDS will that work or are the MDS lifters just weak by nature and still fail?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I believe it’s more than just disabling them. The lifters if you look at pics is like a lifter with a large spring Inside of it. Replacing the lifters and disabiling the MDS is necessary. I don’t remember what fails but it’s not the MDS programming or system, but the physical lifter fails and whipes our the cam.

Sorry I got the GM DOD lifters confused which I have more experience with in my LS builds. It’s common to delete the valley plate and run normal lifters and never have an issue again. I’m talking 250k plus miles on a stock Engine.

Here are some pics of the ram hemi MDS lifter. My guess is they collapse or lock up due to the spring or the lifter plunger when the MDS controls oil flow to the lifter to enable or disable the lifter.

 

[69GWC]

So is it pretty much only these lifters that fail ?

 

[blackbetty14]

Basically, the lifters fail and dig into the cam, throwing metal into the motor which contaminates the rest of the lifters or engine.

 

[1quick1]

Well, as far the newest studies show is heating up the car ideiling worst than (slowly) drive immediatly after firening the engine up.
It seems that most f the engine wear is during cold starts and the engine heat up much faster when driving it.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a19086/warming-up-your-car-in-the-cold-just-harms-engine/

Pretty much this. Warming your vehicle up is something us over 25+ have ingrained in our heads from the generation of carburetor priors. Same as 3,000 mile oil changes. I use Penzoil Ultra Plantinum (I believe that's what it's called) and the synthetics do a great job at extreme temps (super cold starts).

I personally give in 30-60 seconds, then I drive moderately until warmed up. Remember it's not just your engine that needs warmed up...your transmission, hell your suspension components.

 

[rwreuter]

I believe it’s more than just disabling them. The lifters if you look at pics is like a lifter with a large spring Inside of it. Replacing the lifters and disabiling the MDS is necessary. I don’t remember what fails but it’s not the MDS programming or system, but the physical lifter fails and whipes our the cam.

Sorry I got the GM DOD lifters confused which I have more experience with in my LS builds. It’s common to delete the valley plate and run normal lifters and never have an issue again. I’m talking 250k plus miles on a stock Engine.

Here are some pics of the ram hemi MDS lifter. My guess is they collapse or lock up due to the spring or the lifter plunger when the MDS controls oil flow to the lifter to enable or disable the lifter.

I could be (probably am) wrong, but I was under the impression that fuel shuts off to said cylinders, the lubrication of the lifter is NOT affected.

Speculation here, the lifter fails because it is a complicated design and it isn't getting the necessary lubrication to the correct pieces and parts in the lifter.....KISS, the more moving pieces the more chance for failure.

 

[69GWC]

Basically, the lifters fail and dig into the cam, throwing metal into the motor which contaminates the rest of the lifters or engine.

Right knew that but just wondered if those lifters were the ones that fail everytime or if it was more random.

 

[Burla]

Making stuff that breaks is the plan all along, JAPAN. Nothing done to engines or oil formulations in the last 30 years had extending engine life as a goal. Having engines that have a half life from what they can be is good for the manufacturer as far as repeat customers and the gov't makes a windfall every time a truck is sold.

But hey they bunch it up and say it is because of global warming I mean climate change and everyone buys into this garbage. Once they find that climate change is a farce like global warming, I wonder what the next title will be. "Potential" climate variations, lol. Meanwhile we all have been sold down the river...