Difference between 4-Auto and 4-Lock

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LouM

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I don't recall if I had disabled the traction control or not.
I do have the limited slip rear.
The situation I tried to create is what happens when my steep uphill driveway gets iced up on me.

An over weight retired person with a heart issue having to walk up a 14 degree or 25% slope driveway on slippery going is not a desirerable situation :driver:

Yes trying to ease this truck around on slick surfaces is very agravating, especially as I know that electric hydraulic clutches that will transfer much more torque and hp then these do. Numerous farm tractors use them.
 

Ken226

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Lou,

If you happen to be in the Pacific Northwest, id be more than happy to help you swap in a 44-45 and program the BCM for you.
 

LouM

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Thanks;
Opposite side of the country and having the extended warranty been holding off on modifying things.
Have been contemplating the bolt in modification to the transfercase and using the Alfaobd to make the computer think it's the 44-45.
With winter hopefully over soon my biggest problem with it will be over for another year.
Possibly the wiring modification Brandon is working on will also be beneficial.
Lou
 

chrisbh17

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I was wondering if Alfa could solve the issue with the RS kit not getting fully back into 2wd under certain conditions. If you ever get to try it out please let me know.

Not exactly sure how to get one of the kits from george or if it's even possible.

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Cardhu

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My truck now has a 44-45 installed, and programmed via alphaobd. It works perfectly. If your 44-44 is smoked and working poorly, consider swapping in a 44-45, it took me 1-1/2 hours to do.
It was a direct, drop in replacement. Very easy. The AlphaOBD programming took 10 seconds.

You have any more info on the 10 seconds of programming and also did you replace the dash button for one that comes with a 44-45? Also confirm that 4Lo still works and shifts out back to 2WD.
 

Ken226

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You have any more info on the 10 seconds of programming and also did you replace the dash button for one that comes with a 44-45? Also confirm that 4Lo still works and shifts out back to 2WD.

Mopar16 did an excellent writeup on the 44-45 swap in the DIY forum.

It did indeed require replacement of the dash switch/button. I got the switch on ebay for 50.00

Reprogramming in AlphaOBD required connecting the OBDlink adapter to the OBD port, openining AlphaOBD app in my phone > selecting body computer > MY 2013 powernet > car configuration change > T case type > bw4446 syncromesh > start

It does indeed, and has been verified to shift back out of 4lo to 2wd correctly. I have verified it myself as well. And i verified that the flat-tow neutral button works correctly too.

I was wondering if Alfa could solve the issue with the RS kit not getting fully back into 2wd under certain conditions. If you ever get to try it out please let me know.

Not exactly sure how to get one of the kits from george or if it's even possible.

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Theres no way i can verify this, but since the RSG kit and the 44-45 shift the same way, the -should- solve that issue as well.
Im sure the reason it hasn't been tried is because a used low mileage 44-45 can be had for $300 shipped. The RSG kit is at least double the price with noone having taken the risk to verify that it works.
The RSG kit also requires disassembly of the transfer case, and likely replacement of some gaskets and seals. The 44-45 does not.
Mopar16 took the risk to test the 44-45. With his verification of function, everyone went into it more confident. Untill someone doubles up on his risk (RSG kit costs double), we wont know.

120$ and 80$ shipping
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/163588860208

250$ free shipping
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/312514723011
 
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chrisbh17

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Theres no way i can verify this, but since the RSG kit and the 44-45 shift the same way, the -should- solve that issue as well.
Im sure the reason it hasn't been tried is because a used low mileage 44-45 can be had for $300 shipped. The RSG kit is at least double the price with noone having taken the risk to verify that it works.
The RSG kit also requires disassembly of the transfer case, and likely replacement of some gaskets and seals. The 44-45 does not.
Mopar16 took the risk to test the 44-45. With his verification of function, everyone went into it more confident. Untill someone doubles up on his risk (RSG kit costs double), we wont know.

Yeah I guess you're right at this point!

I just cant stomach a clearly obvious mod like that...Im sure FCA would use it to void every piece of warranty on my truck lol (I know they cant, technically, but Im sure they would say the xfer case connects to electrical so they could void electrical. it connects to the trans so why not void that too, etc)

George did say there is a better clutch pack available and it makes the case a lot stronger. Trying to get specifics (i.e. cost and maybe what is different about it)
 

Ken226

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Yeah I guess you're right at this point!

I just cant stomach a clearly obvious mod like that...Im sure FCA would use it to void every piece of warranty on my truck lol (I know they cant, technically, but Im sure they would say the xfer case connects to electrical so they could void electrical. it connects to the trans so why not void that too, etc)

George did say there is a better clutch pack available and it makes the case a lot stronger. Trying to get specifics (i.e. cost and maybe what is different about it)

Yea, i understand your concern on the warranty. To be honest, the 44-44 isnt all that bad if you understand it. You just have to avoid those situations.

Naturally, we wish we did not have to take special precautions to avoid certain situations, but were all adults here and we understand that sometimes were stuck with deciding which is the least bad situation, for our circimstances.


I decided that my own least bad circumstance is to do my own work. Everything, regardless of complexity. Hemis arent any harder to fix than old SBC chevys. The dealers seem to be minimally competent and will likely try and find a reason to deny warranty claims anyway. The money i would have spent on warrantys, goes into my savings acct, for future repair use.

I can get replacement transmissions, engines, engine rebuild kits, cams etc on ebay or amazon or a local salvage yard.

Every thread i read here that has the word "dealer" in the title, reads like a Nigerian prince scam. Warranty claim -denied!- for whatever made up reason. Then $6,000 to replace an engine that could have been rebuilt for $1200.

Or 5000$ to replace a transmission, while i can find remanufactured transmissions online for $2000, or rebuild it myself for $300
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/263117482653

These days, people are intimidated by the computer controls. The computer conrols aren't bad at all.
 
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chrisbh17

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I usually do my own work, too....for some reason I thought I would get away from that with my truck. But I find myself still wanting to change the fluids myself, etc. Havent gotten past that since the truck is fairly new, but for major stuff I would rather let the dealer handle it (for cheap, which is why I purchased MaxCare Lifetime)

If they want to replace the clutches over and over again, thats fine, I just dont want to be stranded in a storm because it broke, they "fix it" and then it happens all over again.
 

Ken226

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I usually do my own work, too....for some reason I thought I would get away from that with my truck. But I find myself still wanting to change the fluids myself, etc. Havent gotten past that since the truck is fairly new, but for major stuff I would rather let the dealer handle it (for cheap, which is why I purchased MaxCare Lifetime)

If they want to replace the clutches over and over again, thats fine, I just dont want to be stranded in a storm because it broke, they "fix it" and then it happens all over again.

If it makes you feel any better, the 44-45 and 44-44 cases are externally identical. The only way anyone is going to know which it is, is by crawling under and looking at the label. The label can be peeled off.

The faceplate of the switch is a toolless snap on design.

Theres no external wiring difference.

Personally, i think the RSG kit would be more obvious because the new gaskets, seals, etc would make it pretty clear that its been opened up.

I had my 44-44 and 44-45 sitting side-by-side, and they are physically identical.

Compare these pics, to the ones above in the previous post:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/312503887644

I suspect they use the same castings.
 

chrisbh17

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Yeah, I think you're right....way forever ago I managed to find a parts list from BW and the casings for the 44-44 and 44-45 ARE the same. Internals are different, of course.

I suppose its an option down the road....while I would love to have my truck bulletproof immediately, it hasnt let me down yet so no rush I guess.
 
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corneileous

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Yea, i understand your concern on the warranty. To be honest, the 44-44 isnt all that bad if you understand it. You just have to avoid those situations.

Naturally, we wish we did not have to take special precautions to avoid certain situations, but were all adults here and we understand that sometimes were stuck with deciding which is the least bad situation, for our circimstances.


I decided that my own least bad circumstance is to do my own work. Everything, regardless of complexity. Hemis arent any harder to fix than old SBC chevys. The dealers seem to be minimally competent and will likely try and find a reason to deny warranty claims anyway. The money i would have spent on warrantys, goes into my savings acct, for future repair use.

I can get replacement transmissions, engines, engine rebuild kits, cams etc on ebay or amazon or a local salvage yard.

Every thread i read here that has the word "dealer" in the title, reads like a Nigerian prince scam. Warranty claim -denied!- for whatever made up reason. Then $6,000 to replace an engine that could have been rebuilt for $1200.

Or 5000$ to replace a transmission, while i can find remanufactured transmissions online for $2000, or rebuild it myself for $300
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/263117482653

These days, people are intimidated by the computer controls. The computer conrols aren't bad at all.

I appreciate how mine works, I just only created this thread to have a better understanding of it, how it works, and to have a better understanding of how which mode works best for whatever situation. As I stated in my opening post, I don’t go off-road, I don’t go play in a muddy field on rainy days, so I’m not looking for how to use it in that, I just wanted to know what’s best for normal situations.


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Brandon-w

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Ponder it a little more. Keep in mine the effect the moving road surface has on these parts, via the tires/wheels.

If the transmission powers the transfer case, and inputs torque into the rear ramp plate of the ballramp actuator, and the front ramp plate is 'powered by' the torque -from- the rear ramp plate, then

The more traction (resistance to rotation) the front tires have, the more force is requirrd be input into the rear ramp plate. More force into the rear ramp plate, puts more compressive forces into the clutch pack.

Less traction in the rear tires, while still having good front tire traction, (ie, front ramp plate puts force to the road, rear ramp plate spins tires ), means i higher percentage of the total force is put into the rear ramp plate and converted into axial (compressive) force via the balls being force up the shallow side of the ramps.

Once the rear and front tires have equal taction, then the 4 tires will be rotating over the road surface, or spinning in the snow, with equal speed. Then, the front and rear ramp plates will be rotating in sync and no more compressive force will occor in the ball ramp.

Im trying to be articulate, but sometimes the description isn't as clear as the idea.

Does this make sense?

Your transfer case may not be working this way, but its supposed to. The condition of your individual transfer case will necessarily determine how close, or not, it works with respect to how its supposed to work.

In order for it to work right, the roughly machined friction producing surfaces of the rotor/stator must be in good shape, and the clutch plates themselves must have good friction producing surface finished.

Pics in a few minutes.

Clutch plates in decent condition. Notice how small and narrow the friction producing material is. These plate cannot take alot of slipping/friction/heat. They must engage and disengage without alot of slipping, or theyll burn up quickly.
20190311-103634.jpg

Friction surfaces of stator/rotor in good condition. The crosshatch pattern in the rotor plate MUST be in good condition for fast engagement of the front wheels. This friction producing surface creates the drag that starts the process of engaging the ballramp actuator. If this surface wears smooth, the clutch plates will engage more slowly and generate alot of heat:
20190311-103643.jpg

Notice the shiny circular portion of the rotor plate face. The upper part, wear area is around the outside of the front face. This is the area that contacts the stator face and starts the ballramp actuator. Once it wears smoothe or glazes, the clutch plates wont last much longer.

My truck now has a 44-45 installed, and programmed via alphaobd. It works perfectly. If your 44-44 is smoked and working poorly, consider swapping in a 44-45, it took me 1-1/2 hours to do.
It was a direct, drop in replacement. Very easy. The AlphaOBD programming took 10 seconds.

My 44-44 is now a science experiment, which i've studied to the n'th degree. Someday, i may rebuild it shimmed to perfection, and with upgraded Rockland clutch plates.

I have a degree in mechanical engineering technology, and my specialized electives which differentiate the various engineering technology disciplines, were in mechanical design, CAD and mechanical power transmission systems (gearboxes). My final project for Mechanical Design III, was to design a complete manual transmission for a large tractor using AutoCAD and submit a complete design package, with drawings, a bill of materials and stress analysis with a finite element analysis run using Autodesk software. Designing involute helical teeth on a conical hypoid geat is pretty tough.

I also own a machine shop, fully equipped with CNC and manual VMCs and turning centers. I'll manufacture the parts and shims needed.
If i ever motivate myself enough to start, given the lack of need, ill swap it back in and see how it works.

One of the weakest links in the system, in my opinion, is the clutch pressure plate (bottom pic, bottom part). The pressure face (shiny circular face around the outer portion of the plate), is the part that forces the clutch plates into compression (forced by the ballramp).

The ballramp applies force to the center of the pressure plate, and the pressure plate applies force to the clutch pack at the perimeter. Flexure between the center and perimeter reduces the magnitude of this axial force and refuces the effectiveness of the overall system. This pressure plate should be made of 4140 steel rather than aluminum, should be thicker, and should have radial ridges to add support and rigidity.

These weak points are what convinced me to put in a bw44-45!
You've had this t case Completely apart and I'm Wondering if you can tell me do they slightly overdrive the front wheels through the gearing in the t case like some manufacturers do? I remember doing ring and pinion swaps on some of the older chevs and the dealer would send us a 4:10 rear ring and pinion and a 4:11 for the front. One of the senior techs said that some companies overdrive the front end through the t case to keep costs down.
Thanks
Brandon.

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corneileous

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You've had this t case Completely apart and I'm Wondering if you can tell me do they slightly overdrive the front wheels through the gearing in the t case like some manufacturers do? I remember doing ring and pinion swaps on some of the older chevs and the dealer would send us a 4:10 rear ring and pinion and a 4:11 for the front. One of the senior techs said that some companies overdrive the front end through the t case to keep costs down.
Thanks
Brandon.

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Wow, I had no idea they did that.....


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Brandon-w

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Yeah quite a few compaines allow for a certain % overdrive of front wheels it's cool.

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corneileous

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Yeah quite a few compaines allow for a certain % overdrive of front wheels it's cool.

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So what happens for those guys that do their own gear swaps in a 4WD that put the same ratio up front as the back who may not know that some trucks have a different ratio up front on purpose to make up for the gears in the transfer case? I know it ain’t much but that’s still extra stress as the front wheels would be turning a different speed from the back.


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Brandon-w

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If it's matched gearing it makes no difference as tires and gears are both traveling the same speeds. If You were to Run say a 4:10 in the front and a 4:11 in the rear it would feel real screwey to drive almost like a brake Grabbing but you never quite put a finger on it until. You took it out of 4x4. Worked on a truck a few years ago a guy did the wrong axle swap on it was fine at low speeds but at high speeds the 3:55 front end wanted to run away and the 3:73 rear gears wanted to hold it back. Literally felt like The truck was being pulled apart.

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Ken226

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You've had this t case Completely apart and I'm Wondering if you can tell me do they slightly overdrive the front wheels through the gearing in the t case like some manufacturers do? I remember doing ring and pinion swaps on some of the older chevs and the dealer would send us a 4:10 rear ring and pinion and a 4:11 for the front. One of the senior techs said that some companies overdrive the front end through the t case to keep costs down.
Thanks
Brandon.

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While i dont know for certain, i dont think they do. Ive never had either of my differentials apart.

I was complacent with the 44-44, and didnt bother shifting to 2wd if i was on pavement between mountain roads.

But i forgot to switch out of 4wd a couple time after my 44-45 swap. Once i didnt realize it for about 50 miles.

If the front/rear ratios were even a little different i should have noticed something after 50miles on pavement in 4wd.
 

Brandon-w

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Yeah you definately would have noticed that. I think I'll do a bit more digging. It's got me super curious now.

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Ken226

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I did recently have my first occasion of my 44-45 failing to get me where i wanted to go!

But, i can hardly blame the transfer case. It was more of a case of a stupid, overconfident driver nearly getting into something he (me) couldn't get out of.

I decided to go see if my favorite long range rifle shooting spot was driveable yet.

In the North Cascade range, the kind of snow capped mountains sane people don't drive up in winter. Rough, wet, snowy and muddy dirt roads.

I made it up to the snow line, and got to a bad section of road. It only looked bad for about 200yds, then looked clear past that.

The bad spot had foot deep snow, was steep as ****, and the drop off the side of the road looked similar the the window seat view from a 747. Clouds visible a couple thousand feet below.

I made it halfway across before the truck stopped, all 4 wheels spinning, and started sliding backwards and a little sideways.

I spent 30 minutes piling **** behind the wheels so i could very, very, very slowly back the truck into a strait line and back down that section of road.

Then 5 minutes to hammer down the cone sticking up from the middle of the drivers seat.
 

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