No Crank. Never ending 2011 5.7L RAM issues

[Ken226]

Yes, I can connect to Engine computer with Alpha.
I can connect to Body Computer with alpha and do all kinds of stuff.
I can connect to the RF Hub and I even programmed a key that will lock/Unlock the doors.
I can retrieve the 4 digit PIN.
I can poll the computer and get all kinds of information on the truck including the VIN.

I cannot connect to the ABS - not sure if this is normal or not.

i'll go try it on mine.

 

[Ken226]

Yea, i was able to connect to the ABS module no problem.

 

[dchapma1957]

Yea, i was able to connect to the ABS module no problem.

OK so that is a clue. The ABS data lines run on CAN2 which routes through the TIPM. The PCM data lines run on the regular CAN bus and I rang those out from the PCM to the TIPM.

My next step is to replace the TIPM. I should get it delivered on Thursday. If that doesn't do it, it is getting towed to the dealer. I need a vehicle and have been without for 6 weeks now.

 

[dchapma1957]

Oh, I also disconnected C2, C3 and C4 from the PCM eliminating any sensors, or solenoids from the equation and that made no difference either.

 

[Ken226]

Oh, I also disconnected C2, C3 and C4 from the PCM eliminating any sensors, or solenoids from the equation and that made no difference either.

I'm reluctant to ask some things, because you've likely already check alot of the things I would suggest, but just in case I think of anything you havn't already,

The U1197 code in the RF hub seems to point towards the CAN connection, eather between the WIN module and and starC connector on the interior of the truck. The problem being in the interior is less likely I think, because replacing the cam didn't result in alot of connectors being unhooked and parts pulled around in the cab.

The other possibility is that it's between the StarC connector and the PCM, in the engine bay. That is the route that the keys secure2 seed response would need to take.

Since you were physically working in the engine bay during the cam sway, i lean toward that being the higher probability. If something got pinched or broken and shorted, which could then have killed something in the TIPM.

Unfortunately, if that is the case, your new TIPM will be toast as soon as you plug it in, unless you find the short first.



According to this article, the start/run relay or start/run bus bar inside the TIPM is also a possibilty, but it sounds like you've already checked that:

No Crank No Start Ignition Run Circuit – Diagnostic Network

This vehicle had an intermittent no crank/no start condition. No codes were stored in the PCM. There was a U1197-00 code in the Radio Frequency Hub (RFH). This module handles the anti-theft key fob functions. The code indicates that the Secur2 Seed Response from the PCM was not received. The DTC...

diag.net

 

[dchapma1957]

SOLVED!

After chasing and ringing out computer data lines which all checked good including the CAN bus terminaging resistance I moved onto power distribution. Checking 12V at the PCM, 5 volts (again) I then went to the Run/Start circuit just to verify. Fuse M33 in the diagrams shower power from the Run/Start relay to the PCM, which I checked the first time I had 12, but on another test I thought I saw it drop out.

I then swapped the Run/Start Relay R4, I believe, with the TCM relay, turned the key and no more security light flashing - it started right up! Staooped/ started multiple times with no issues so I buttoned it up for a test drivr.

During test driving the transmission showed stuck at 4th gear and would NOT go into Drive. and it posted a check engine light on with a P0882 TCM Power Input Low error. Ah yes, the relay I swapped with the Run/Start was now in the TCM power and it was bad. I swapped it again with the blower motor relay and the transmission errors cleared and the truck drove normally.

I then drove it to the store, grabbed a new relay and put it into the blower motor position. That relay, or the connection it was making or not making was the root cause of the whole shebang! R4! Run/Start Relay. With it providing no or Low voltage to the PCM, the PCM could not reply to the security seed and the WIN node went into immobilization.

All of that for a stinking relay - that Johnny's Automotive could not find and gave up on it but me and my trusty FLUKE meter got it!

 

[dchapma1957]

I'm reluctant to ask some things, because you've likely already check alot of the things I would suggest, but just in case I think of anything you havn't already,

The U1197 code in the RF hub seems to point towards the CAN connection, eather between the WIN module and and starC connector on the interior of the truck. The problem being in the interior is less likely I think, because replacing the cam didn't result in alot of connectors being unhooked and parts pulled around in the cab.

The other possibility is that it's between the StarC connector and the PCM, in the engine bay. That is the route that the keys secure2 seed response would need to take.

Since you were physically working in the engine bay during the cam sway, i lean toward that being the higher probability. If something got pinched or broken and shorted, which could then have killed something in the TIPM.

Unfortunately, if that is the case, your new TIPM will be toast as soon as you plug it in, unless you find the short first.



According to this article, the start/run relay or start/run bus bar inside the TIPM is also a possibilty, but it sounds like you've already checked that:

No Crank No Start Ignition Run Circuit – Diagnostic Network

This vehicle had an intermittent no crank/no start condition. No codes were stored in the PCM. There was a U1197-00 code in the Radio Frequency Hub (RFH). This module handles the anti-theft key fob functions. The code indicates that the Secur2 Seed Response from the PCM was not received. The DTC...

diag.net

I had, but the relay must have had a high internal resistance on the internal contacts because when I swapped it to the TCM position I had transmission problems. The relay actuated but could not pass the proper voltage.

 

[Barr2255]

SOLVED!

After chasing and ringing out computer data lines which all checked good including the CAN bus terminaging resistance I moved onto power distribution. Checking 12V at the PCM, 5 volts (again) I then went to the Run/Start circuit just to verify. Fuse M33 in the diagrams shower power from the Run/Start relay to the PCM, which I checked the first time I had 12, but on another test I thought I saw it drop out.

I then swapped the Run/Start Relay R4, I believe, with the TCM relay, turned the key and no more security light flashing - it started right up! Staooped/ started multiple times with no issues so I buttoned it up for a test drivr.

During test driving the transmission showed stuck at 4th gear and would NOT go into Drive. and it posted a check engine light on with a P0882 TCM Power Input Low error. Ah yes, the relay I swapped with the Run/Start was now in the TCM power and it was bad. I swapped it again with the blower motor relay and the transmission errors cleared and the truck drove normally.

I then drove it to the store, grabbed a new relay and put it into the blower motor position. That relay, or the connection it was making or not making was the root cause of the whole shebang! R4! Run/Start Relay. With it providing no or Low voltage to the PCM, the PCM could not reply to the security seed and the WIN node went into immobilization.

All of that for a stinking relay - that Johnny's Automotive could not find and gave up on it but me and my trusty FLUKE meter got it!

What a success! Glad you got it resolved and shared with us!

 

[Ken226]

I had, but the relay must have had a high internal resistance on the internal contacts because when I swapped it to the TCM position I had transmission problems. The relay actuated but could not pass the proper voltage.

So it's fixed? What caused the problem to begin with?

 

[dchapma1957]

So it's fixed? What caused the problem to begin with?

It is fixed.

High secondary contact resistance on relay R4, Run/Stop relay, did not provide enough voltage to the PCM to allow it to respond to the Security Seed request from the WIN.

 

[Ken226]

It is fixed.

High secondary contact resistance on relay R4, Run/Stop relay, did not provide enough voltage to the PCM to allow it to respond to the Security Seed request from the WIN.

That's great to hear. I'm glad you got it worked out!

It's unfortunate that you had to deal with this, and even more unfortunate that the shop/dealer that had your truck couldn't fix it.

You should give them a call and let them know that you were able to figure out, what was apparently beyond their capacity to diagnose.

Good work! Diagnosing that kind of problem is very difficult.


So, you think all the cranking during the shop towel phase of the project resulted in the relay arcing out the contacts into a high resistance state? Absent any other wiring problems or shorts, that seems logical?

 

[dchapma1957]

Maybe. I wasn't even near the TIPM when I did the cam and I was very careful of the wiring harnesses. There was a considerable amount of cranking but this relay doesn't carry the current to the starter, it supplies B+ to the PCM and a lot of other crap. It gets energized as soon as the key is put in the run position.

I guess I will never know but it seems too coincidental to have this happen right after I get it back on the road after the cam.

 

[EdGs]

Glad you got it sorted out.

What a convoluted journey for high resistance on a relay, but components can fail at any time.

Thank you for posting the solution, that is exactly the thing that will help someone else down the road.

I know you are breathing a huge sigh of relief having found the issue.

Is there any hope of returning the new one?

 

[NETim]

I read the entire thread just now. I just love it when someone gives feedback on what they found/what they did to fix the problem.

Kudos to you sir! And good job!

Also for those interested, a "CAN" bus is actually called a "Controller Area Network" which are used in EVERYTHING I think.

My cat scanners, MRI's and Xray systems were littered with CAN buses.

And I HATE intermittent problems.

Again, good job!

 

[Ken226]

I read the entire thread just now. I just love it when someone gives feedback on what they found/what they did to fix the problem.

Kudos to you sir! And good job!

Also for those interested, a "CAN" bus is actually called a "Controller Area Network" which are used in EVERYTHING I think.

My cat scanners, MRI's and Xray systems were littered with CAN buses.

And I HATE intermittent problems.

Again, good job!

Yup. Some of my hobbies are building CNC machines and 3d printers.

My Voron 2.4 build has CAN

Voron 2.4r2 Nozzle Scrubber Macro

Nozzle Macro

rumble.com

Voron 2.4r2

My Voron2.4r2 printing a Dewalt rack.

rumble.com

For anyone curious, the Voron project is a 3d printer design that uses off the shelf hardware from places like McMaster Carr. For the printed parts, you can beg/borrow/buy the minimum printed parts you need to get it running. Once you get it assembled to the point it can print, you used it to print the rest of the plastic parts.

VORON Design

Get started with VORON 3D printer, the best little CoreXY 'space shuttle' you can build in your garden shed, or your kitchen.

vorondesign.com

 

[aszumilo]

Glad to hear you got it figured out. Might just help someone else out in the future.

 

[Tinymo111]

First thing this morning it started, ran 3 seconds and quit.

It restated and I ran it for a minute or so. Turned it off and then, No Crank - again.

Thoroughly cleaned all grounds and tightened.
Thoroughly inspected all wires and connectors to the TIPM module.

So far all my grounds and voltages look good. I have +5V out from the PCM to the cam/crank, etc. sensors. I hav +12V into the PCM.

I still have a constant flashing Red little round light on the dash - I believe it is the security system.
I also generated a B1A28 error: ECM Mismatch with Sentry Key Imobilizer Module.
Also U1197 Security Seed Response Not Received from ECM, (I understand this gets set every 20 attempts so I have not seen this since i cleared it).

Also, there is no communication to the Transmission Control Module, whatever and wherever that is.

It does Lock and unlock correctly with the Key Fob! I only have one Key Fob.

If it in fact is a security thing, why did it start this morning? If it is a security thing I can see why it won't even crank. That stinking WIN module is like $300! and I have no way or knowledge on how to program it.

The frustration continues.

If you haven’t found a solution yet I’m pretty sure I can help you. I chased basically the same issue word for word for the last 2 months on my 14 ram. I got it figured out at least o my application. Mine was due to a bad connection in the wire connectors on the underside of the tipm. Try carefully raising the tipm just enough that you can safely wiggle the wires on the front and passenger side connector, there’s 4 connectors that have a couple dozen wires in each. As you wiggle the loose ones you’ll know because components associated with whichever wire your wiggling will start to click and or hum.

 

[dchapma1957]

Thanks for your reply. I solved it. It was a bad relay in the TIPM not providing power to the ECM.

 

[Ibriyn]

2011 ram 2500 5.7 hemi

I crank. No start.

Tpim replaced in past 2 years.
Replaced fuel pump now twice in 2 months.
Replaced crank shaft sensor.

Tried bypassing tpim and still getting no pump sounds. Pump doesn’t seem to be running no matter what I do.

Pump reads 9v for a Cpl seconds at connector on pump.


It started. Warmed up. Put in drive. Stalled. Hasn’t started since.

I’m stumped…
It’s my plow truck and I’m into borrowed time now

 

[Ken226]

2011 ram 2500 5.7 hemi

I crank. No start.

Tpim replaced in past 2 years.
Replaced fuel pump now twice in 2 months.
Replaced crank shaft sensor.

Tried bypassing tpim and still getting no pump sounds. Pump doesn’t seem to be running no matter what I do.

Pump reads 9v for a Cpl seconds at connector on pump.


It started. Warmed up. Put in drive. Stalled. Hasn’t started since.

I’m stumped…
It’s my plow truck and I’m into borrowed time now

Which wire are you getting 9v on?

This diagram is from my 2013, so it may not be the same. Do you have a service manual for your 2011, with diagrams?

For example, on a 2013, if I was measuring 9v on the "fuel pump control circuit", thats connector c5 pin 17 from the tipm fuel pump relay, the blue/orange wire on the left of the diagram, I'd suspect a bad connection at a connector, loose pin in a connector, a broken wire, green crusties a connector or ground or something. Also, i'd check the ground g916a, the black wire z916




I'd start testing the circuits between the fuel pump relay and fuel pump

Of course, this is assuming that you've already load tested your battery? The old school toaster style from the likes of Harbor Freight work best.



If you can't get a copy of your year models wiring diagram, you might try Alldata DIY.