RAM 2500 6.4 vs Cummins for Travel Trailer with 7500lb GVWR

[jejb]

Diesel will cost you more. That is a fact and isn't debatable.

I disagree. A good example of it is in post #13 of this thread. But a lot of that can depend on fuel prices in your area too. Oil/fuel filter changes are pricey on the diesel, but they only need to be done once a year or every 15K. If you are a DIYer and drive 15k+ a year, that can be a wash.

You MIGHT break even if you have no failures for the duration of ownership, and keep it a long time. One failure and you've lost any chance of coming out ahead. One major failure, and you've come out wayyyyy in the red. You can put a new engine in a gas truck for what a fuel system job on the diesel costs.

Gas motors can have meltdowns too. But the vast majority will not have to replace either motor.

Fleets are running gas trucks for a reason. It's cheaper. It's cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate. OP is well within the capabilities of an HD gas truck and if the decision is strictly based on Financials, the diesel never wins in any scenario.

Maybe in a fleet situation, that might be correct. I have seen diesels in local fleets, like HVAC businesses.

The gas truck will drag that trailer wherever he wants to go for however long he's willing to pump gas into it.

No question. I'm not debating which engine the OP should get. Good arguments for both.

With a diesel, you're spending a lot of money to be able to smoke up passes and keep your foot off the brake going down. Nothing wrong with that, but realize that is what you're really spending the 10-12k on.

You spend that on the original option, but again, you're going to get pretty much all of that back at sale/trade time. I wish the rest of the truck held its value as well as the diesel motors does!

 

[nlambert182]

Diesel will cost you more. That is a fact and isn't debatable. You MIGHT break even if you have no failures for the duration of ownership, and keep it a long time. One failure and you've lost any chance of coming out ahead. One major failure, and you've come out wayyyyy in the red. You can put a new engine in a gas truck for what a fuel system job on the diesel costs.

Fleets are running gas trucks for a reason. It's cheaper. It's cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate. OP is well within the capabilities of an HD gas truck and if the decision is strictly based on Financials, the diesel never wins in any scenario. The gas truck will drag that trailer wherever he wants to go for however long he's willing to pump gas into it.

With a diesel, you're spending a lot of money to be able to smoke up passes and keep your foot off the brake going down. Nothing wrong with that, but realize that is what you're really spending the 10-12k on.

While my experience may be anecdotal to some... I'll explain it in hopes that maybe a real world scenario will shed some light on the diesel vs gas cost debate. It's not that expensive in reality. Diesel being more expensive all the way around is NOT a fact. It's a POSSIBILITY. It's also a POSSIBILITY that depending upon how it's used, it can be cheaper long term.

I still have the cost breakdowns (in a spreadsheet that I keep on all my vehicles) on all the maintenance costs for our gas vehicles and my 2016 Ram 3500.

Just as an example... from 60k-120k miles (2018-2022):

2016 Ram 3500:
Oil change - ($95 ea @15k intervals) - $380
Fuel filter changes ($120 ea every other oil change) - $480
Tires - (6 Cooper Discover A/T) - $1,786
Front brake pads - $58 (my labor)
Trans service (with filters)(paid a shop) - $350
Total cost of fuel (diesel averaged a total of $4.18/gallon across that mileage @ 15 mpg average) - $16,720
Total cost of DEF: $486
Total Cost: $20,260

2014 Expedition Limited:
Oil change ($54.50 ea @ 5k intervals) - $654
Tires (4 Michelin Defenders) - $1,522
8 coil packs - $95 (my labor)
8 spark plugs - $104 (my labor)
Rear brake pads - $37 (my labor)
Front brake pads and rotors - $178 (my labor)
Trans service(paid a shop) - $350
Total cost of fuel (gas averaged a total of $3.17/gallon across that mileage @ 14.5 mpg average) - $13,117.24
Total Cost: $16,057.24

Neither vehicle needed any work done aside from the normal routine maintenance during that mileage. There's only a $4,202.76 difference in cost. If you divide that by 5 years, it's an increase of $840 a year... or $70 a month. One tank of gas.

I bought my Ram 3500 in 2018 and paid $48k for it. I sold it in 2022 for $43k. It depreciated $1k per year.
I bought the Expedition in 2016 for $47k. I sold it in 2022 for $19.5k. It depreciated $3,928 per year.

Taking into account everything above.... it cost me $5,452 per year to drive the Ram. It cost me $8,711.45 to drive the Expedition.

If I extended this and added in my DEF failure.... that cost me $1,700 to delete. I basically covered that in the depreciation savings.. but even if you replaced the entire system you're talking $5k. It would still almost beat out the Expedition IF I were buying something specifically to haul a lot with. One cam phaser failure on the Expedition and we just broke even again.


Again... I'm on the side of buy the right tool for the job regardless of whether it's gas or diesel. But you can't honestly say that diesel is just always more expensive. If you look at the bigger picture.. it's really not. It's more expensive up front and I think too many depend on monthly payments instead of looking at the long term cost.

 

[Choupique]

What I put up was the opinion of a guy who manages a fleet of hundreds of ram trucks from 1500s to 5500s. If you come out ahead on the balance sheet with a diesel, it's the exception rather than the rule. Most people are doing some serious mental gymnastics to justify the very high cost.

 

[zenderxt]

I appreciate all the great feedback! There is definitely a lot to consider, although I am definitely leaning much heavier on the 6.4 side. Obviously the Diesel engine has some advantages with the exhaust brake for hills and the added distance between fuel stations is something to consider, but based on the size of our trailer and the feedback thus far sounds like a 7500lb TT would be cake for the 6.4 even over long distances.

 

[Choupique]

Is the 50 gallon tank an option on the gas trucks? That would make it easier to stomach. More fuel is always better, gas or diesel.

Back in the day, my 3/4 ton gasser got about 12mpg unloaded, somewhere between 5 and 10 pulling, and had a 26ish gallon tank. I remember thinking 300 miles between gas stations was amazing! The new trucks have come a long way in the last 22 years.

 

[ramffml]

What I put up was the opinion of a guy who manages a fleet of hundreds of ram trucks from 1500s to 5500s. If you come out ahead on the balance sheet with a diesel, it's the exception rather than the rule. Most people are doing some serious mental gymnastics to justify the very high cost.

Agreed. Companies and fleets don't generally make emotional or "nice to have" purchases, whatever costs less (in the short and/or long term) is whatever matters.

I'd love to tow with a diesel, no question it's a nicer experience if that matters to you. However I'd rather own a gas, as ownership goes beyond the towing experience and accounts for the whole deal; repairs being the big one, I can drop in another hemi and keep going for less than it costs to do emissions/turbos/injectors etc.

I love my truck with the lowly 5.7, but yeah I still have a wandering eye for that cummins. I totally get why so many are drawn to them, while I can believe it's the nicer towing option, I just don't believe for a second it's the cheaper option all said and done.

 

[Choupique]

while I can believe it's the nicer towing option

It's vastly better. The gas isn't really in a bind doing it, but it just sounds sooooo much worse to listen to that thing roar under the hood at 4500 rpm. The cummins just grabs one lower gear and purrs on up. Get to the other side, and it chugs on down completely under control and sounding like a monster doing it.

Towing with a cummins is downright fun. You can tell the engine is doing what it was made to do. Getting the "200miles until 5mph max" message is NOT fun.

Don't get me wrong, the diesel is better in almost every way except cost. I have one and its spectacular Unfortunately, money is the biggest issue for most of us.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Agreed. Companies and fleets don't generally make emotional or "nice to have" purchases, whatever costs less (in the short and/or long term) is whatever matters.

I'd love to tow with a diesel, no question it's a nicer experience if that matters to you. However I'd rather own a gas, as ownership goes beyond the towing experience and accounts for the whole deal; repairs being the big one, I can drop in another hemi and keep going for less than it costs to do emissions/turbos/injectors etc.

I love my truck with the lowly 5.7, but yeah I still have a wandering eye for that cummins. I totally get why so many are drawn to them, while I can believe it's the nicer towing option, I just don't believe for a second it's the cheaper option all said and done.

If you can afford one and you want one, what the hell? Get one. But it's not like the original 6B5.9T diesel. No piezo injectors, no ECM, no high pressure pump, no variable vane turbo, no exhaust emissions science factory, no hundreds of sensors, etc.

Diesel fuel was cheaper, it had higher sulfur which helped pump lubricity (didn't need lubricity additives) and high energy density (didn't strip out heavy fuel fractions with the sulfur).

In essence, modern diesels provide lower mileage for much more cost, and less reliability than diesels of decades past. Sure they have more torque - for thousands of more dollars. Got to be really smart about needs if you have a tight budget.

 

[OC455]

6.4L Hemi will pull 7500lbs., easy enough.

 

[nlambert182]

What I put up was the opinion of a guy who manages a fleet of hundreds of ram trucks from 1500s to 5500s. If you come out ahead on the balance sheet with a diesel, it's the exception rather than the rule. Most people are doing some serious mental gymnastics to justify the very high cost.

That's likely true in a fleet situation... multiple drivers and in a lot of cases they drive these trucks like they stole them. I mean... it's not really their money to worry about. Most of the 2500-5500 trucks that we saw at the dealership were fleet trucks. We didn't see a lot of private trucks. Most of the fleet trucks were ran pretty hard.

Except most of us here don't manage or operate a fleet. We're usually talking single drivers with a single truck. It doesn't require any sort of special skill to justify the cost. All it takes is keeping up with expenses.

I'll admit that my situation is not always going to be what everyone gets.. but where I get heartburn is when someone says that they're always more expensive. Not always.. and it's not necessarily the exception. It depends on how you use it. I've seen too many say that diesels are more expensive because they read it on a forum. No real world ownership experience yet they can make the claim. I am simply trying to balance that with some data. That said.... obviously from my sig you can tell that I no longer own a diesel. I don't have a trailer to tow anymore and at that point I couldn't justify keeping one around to sit in the driveway. My goal is just to arm a potential buyer with as much information as I can so that they can decide for themselves whether a diesel or gas burner is right for them. I have no interest in swaying them one way or another. In the case of the OP... a gas burner is probably a wiser option.

The only diesel I've ever owned that put me in the red was a 2008 F250 with a 6.4 Powerstroke. That one almost made me swear off diesels completely. In the case of that truck I could've replaced 3 Hemis for what I sunk into that flaming pile.

 

[2003F350]

That's likely true in a fleet situation... multiple drivers and in a lot of cases they drive these trucks like they stole them. I mean... it's not really their money to worry about. Most of the 2500-5500 trucks that we saw at the dealership were fleet trucks. We didn't see a lot of private trucks. Most of the fleet trucks were ran pretty hard.

Except most of us here don't manage or operate a fleet. We're usually talking single drivers with a single truck. It doesn't require any sort of special skill to justify the cost. All it takes is keeping up with expenses.

I'll admit that my situation is not always going to be what everyone gets.. but where I get heartburn is when someone says that they're always more expensive. Not always.. and it's not necessarily the exception. It depends on how you use it. I've seen too many say that diesels are more expensive because they read it on a forum. No real world ownership experience yet they can make the claim. I am simply trying to balance that with some data. That said.... obviously from my sig you can tell that I no longer own a diesel. I don't have a trailer to tow anymore and at that point I couldn't justify keeping one around to sit in the driveway. My goal is just to arm a potential buyer with as much information as I can so that they can decide for themselves whether a diesel or gas burner is right for them. I have no interest in swaying them one way or another. In the case of the OP... a gas burner is probably a wiser option.

The only diesel I've ever owned that put me in the red was a 2008 F250 with a 6.4 Powerstroke. That one almost made me swear off diesels completely. In the case of that truck I could've replaced 3 Hemis for what I sunk into that flaming pile.

The 6.4 gave a LOT of people a bad taste for diesels. It's a good thing it was only in Super Duties for 3 years or it likely would have sunk that line.

But you're absolutely correct (as I tried to point out in my earlier post) - diesel isn't ALWAYS going to be more expensive, depending on how it's used and cared for. If you drive it decent and keep up on the maintenance, even with it being more expensive each fill up/oil change/etc, the long term could very well end up being a LOT cheaper.

And again, it's all about making sure people are informed with real-world data, so they can make their own choice. For OP, would a gasser be the better route? Quite probably. Did I really need a diesel when I got mine? Not really, BUT between needing a truck and not having time to wait on the dealer to find me a 6.4, I went the diesel route and I'm quite pleased that I did.

 

[Farmer Fran]

6.4 in a 2500
CTD in a 3500

 

[dhay13]

You will likely get around 9 MPG towing that trailer with a 6.4 and around 13-14 with the diesel. My son averaged 8.5 towing his 8100lb TT with his 6.4 and that same trailer behind his 2500 CTD got 12 MPG. You will be a little lighter so should get slightly better depending on terrain and driving habits

 

[HEMIMANN]

Yep - giving OP all the pros and cons to make his decision is important, not just cherry pick data to justify your own choice. Each has it's place. Diesel has become more difficult to justify financially for consumers, now being more limited to heavy loads and high towing miles.

OP doesn't have a heavy load, but if he tows frequently, esp. cross country over mountain ranges, diesel may be the better fit.

 

[AlexC2350]

I have a 2020 2500 with the 6.4 with 4.10s and tow an Imagine 3000qb that weighs around 8500 to 9k loaded. I’ve dragged that trailer all over the White Mountains, Adirondacks, Birkshires and Maine. Also tow an equipment trailer with varied load sizes. Really impressed with the 6.4 and zf 8spd. It can be thirsty while towing the camper. Last trip into the white mountains got avg of 8 mpg. Around 16 with unladen.

I had an 18 2500 with 6.4 and 3.73s that towed the same trailer very well also. Only traded it in for the 8spd.

I bought the truck in spring of ‘21 with 600 miles on it and just rolled 83k. It’s been a great truck and I pray it stays that way.

This has been beaten to death but if you want a diesel go ahead and buy it. You definitely don’t need it for your use. I wanted a diesel but the cost of the truck and fuel don’t pan out. Also I think the Cummins is great but the 2 trans options are way behind, and the biggest thing is the potential issues with emissions after warranty.

 

[HEMIMANN]

I was thinking of trading my '17 2500 to get the ZF transmission, but at today's pricing, no way. I'll continue to milk the 66RFE trans with TLC.

 

[AlexC2350]

I’m happy I did it when I did. I got a decent trade in for my 18’ and I paid 46 for the 20 with 600 miles and it came with a stainless V plow. My biggest problem is I love hunting for trucks and finding deals. This is the only truck I’ve had in 7 years for more than a year. I’ve woke up to the folly of my ways though. The market has really helped that too.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Yeah, it's too bad. Between new Ram ownerships (twice), the EPA crackdowns, corporate consolidations, and the global pandemic, it's a tough world to be in today - for damn near anything, much less a new truck.

 

[Riccochet]

6.4 in a 2500
CTD in a 3500

This.

 

[jejb]

6.4 in a 2500
CTD in a 3500

This.

I don't agree. It's just not that simple. Sometimes the reverse makes more sense, depending on the use case.