Does the powertrain warranty cover the manifold bolts?

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snoty

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My 2016 had 2 exhaust manifold bolts and the gasket replaced on the passenger side under the powertrain warranty at 41k (done in November) as my normal warranty ended at 36k.

Other than the fact of having money burning in you wallet and wanting to upgrade, I don't see a purpose in proactively swapping out just because you think they might fail. Having an exhaust leak isn't going to cause larger issues unless possibly it is ignored.
 

Jason Bidwell

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I've heard lots about the manifold bolts breaking. I have a Certified Pre-Owned 2016 with a 5.7 Hemi. I have the 100,000 mile warranty. Are the manifold bolts covered?
Thanks.

I had a 2014 5.7 and i had 3 of them break within LmO warranty and they fixed them without question. I have a 2019 classic 5.7 currently with 19K miles and haven’t had an issue so far!
 

yourfloormat

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No, it's prone to happen but it does not happen to all trucks.
Its a common problem on the Ram 5.7. Its due to the heat and vibration of the motor. Its more likely to happen than not thou on a HEMI.
 

yourfloormat

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My 2016 had 2 exhaust manifold bolts and the gasket replaced on the passenger side under the powertrain warranty at 41k (done in November) as my normal warranty ended at 36k.

Other than the fact of having money burning in you wallet and wanting to upgrade, I don't see a purpose in proactively swapping out just because you think they might fail. Having an exhaust leak isn't going to cause larger issues unless possibly it is ignored.

More than likely you may have more break down the road thou. Mine is out of warranty by time they broke and the cost to fix the issue was 250$ a side, so 500 altogether. One of my exhaust manifolds was warped and also was going to need replacing. That brough it to about 750$ and I decided to price parts out and ending up doing headers and a new exhaust which all together cost me 900$. 900 for whole new exhaust compared to 750 to just replace stock, I think its worth the money and no more headache from manufacturer bolts.
 

Brandon-w

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I had a 2014 5.7 and i had 3 of them break within LmO warranty and they fixed them without question. I have a 2019 classic 5.7 currently with 19K miles and haven’t had an issue so far!
They usually go at 30k ish
 

tidefan1967

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Is breaking manifold bolts a somewhat common issue on all brand trucks or just ram? Seems like ive read brand X guys complaining about this as well.
Mostly just Rams. I've owned many different vehicles from all different manufacturers and other than a few donut gaskets going bad on older GM 250 straight sixes and an exhaust manifold leak on an 84 VW GTI that's it. Unfortunately it seems to be all to common on the HEMI.
 

Jrod

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Its a common problem on the Ram 5.7. Its due to the heat and vibration of the motor. Its more likely to happen than not thou on a HEMI

By your theory more than half the RAM’s with HEMI’s on the road will have manifold problems... It’s just not the case.
 
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Guess I need to get outside and pop the hood


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Ken226

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Has anyone pulled the studs when new and anti seize the threads(both ends)?
Mike


They are easy to extract. Nothing was seized as they were already treated with anti seize from the factory.

Anti-seize will do nothing to prevent them from breaking.

They break because the inch and a half thick iron manifold they hold down expands/contracts too much for the screws small diameter.

Either the manifold screw flanges need to be thinner, or the screws need to be thicker.
 
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Ken226

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By your theory more than half the RAM’s with HEMI’s on the road will have manifold problems... It’s just not the case.


Not half of them. Its Its probably less than half that have hemis.

But almost all of the ones with Hemis will at some point.

It happens the first time around 60,000-90,000 miles, then about every 60,000-90,000 miles after that.
 

David Baldwin

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Mine had the Hemi-Tick for a while before I knew what it was. About 130,000 miles. Had my guy replace them all broken or not with grade 8 bolts not Mopar. All still good and no problem since.
 

Mossybloak

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2 rear bolts both snapped around 38k. Installed shorties because I don't want to mess with it again in the future and it gave me something to do over a weekend.
 

Jrod

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Not half of them. Its Its probably less than half that have hemis.

But almost all of the ones with Hemis will at some point. It happens the first time around 60,000-90,000 miles, then about every 60,000-90,000 miles after that.

I only focused on Hemi’s not all RAM’s..

And again, to say it happens to almost all of them every 60-90k miles is a blanket statement.. It’s simply not true.. Given the tens of thousands of RAM’s on the face of the planet, the concentration is small with an even smaller fraction voicing their issue on a public forum... It’s not a pandemic..
 

18ram18

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The sad thing about the failures is that it could be fixed using simple engineering techniques. For example belleville washers (google search if needed) can overcome thermal expansion and retain clamping torque. Cheap and simple fix.
 

Ken226

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I only focused on Hemi’s not all RAM’s..

And again, to say it happens to almost all of them every 60-90k miles is a blanket statement.. It’s simply not true.. Given the tens of thousands of RAM’s on the face of the planet, the concentration is small with an even smaller fraction voicing their issue on a public forum... It’s not a pandemic..


Lets try a roll call....

Anyone who has a 4th get (2009-2018) WITH over 90,000 miles, and has not experienced broken manifold bolts, respond..

There are plenty who bought a used truck with no tick. Im sure the dealers repair the issue before they resell the truck. So, im interested in hearing from anyone who bought a new truck, is up to 90,000 or more miles, and has never had a broken manifold screw.

Anyone who bought a used truck, isn't likely to know if the screws were ever replaced in the past.

Im guessing the number of people who meet the above qualification and respond here will be pretty close to zero.


How bout i go back through this thread and tally the numbers?

For the purposes of this discussion, shall we consider 75% or more to qualify as "almost all"? That sound fair? Its certainly alot more than half.

I doubt the ratio of those who have vs have not experienced this is much different on this forum as in the general public. For this forum to represent a disproportionate number of people who have had this issue makes no sense.

I agree however that its not a pandemic. They run fine with broken studs. I run across ticking ram trucks all the time, whose owners believe its a normal noise.
 
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Ken226

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Why not just replace bolts with grade 12 stainless?


There are a few things commonly done that help. That is one of them. The biggest concern with trying to use stronger fasteners, is that your just moving the extra stress from a consumable part (screws) to an expensive part (head).

When the thick manifold iron heats up and expands, it stretches the screws. If the screws are stronger, then more force is put on the aluminum threads in the cylinder head.

Shorty headers replace the thick manifold flange with a thin steel flange. Theres much less expansion so less stress.

On the last few screw replacements i did, i torqued the screws to 15 ft lbs to reduce the tensile stress on the screws. Time will tell if it helps

It only takes an hour or two to extract and replace the broken screws. Its not much harder than changing the brake pads and only has to be done a couple times during the life of the truck.

Its only a big deal to guys that have to pay someone to do it.
 

jasonw

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There are a few things commonly done that help. That is one of them. The biggest concern with trying to use stronger fasteners, is that your just moving the extra stress from a consumable part (screws) to an expensive part (head).

When the thick manifold iron heats up and expands, it stretches the screws. If the screws are stronger, then more force is put on the aluminum threads in the cylinder head.

Shorty headers replace the thick manifold flange with a thin steel flange. Theres much less expansion so less stress.

On the last few screw replacements i did, i torqued the screws to 15 ft lbs to reduce the tensile stress on the screws. Time will tell if it helps

It only takes an hour or two to extract and replace the broken screws. Its not much harder than changing the brake pads and only has to be done a couple times during the life of the truck.

Its only a big deal to guys that have to pay someone to do it.

There is this theory, which is the most often repeated/used (and entirely plausible as far as I know), and also the theory that the bolts are slightly too long. I also know there are a few others out there that I am forgetting at the moment. Regardless, some experience these broken bolts every 30k, others never.

I only focused on Hemi’s not all RAM’s..

And again, to say it happens to almost all of them every 60-90k miles is a blanket statement.. It’s simply not true.. Given the tens of thousands of RAM’s on the face of the planet, the concentration is small with an even smaller fraction voicing their issue on a public forum... It’s not a pandemic..

Actually, its quite literally millions of RAMs since 2009. After 2019 Classic sales are added in, 4th Gen RAM sales are probably going to be over 5 million. Granted, not all are Hemis, but I bet 4 million (ish) of them are.

I wonder if they did anything to remedy it for the 5th gen Hemis, or if they're using a similar/same manifold/bolt design.
 

Ken226

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Twice ive typed out a long explanation, only to have it disappear. This time, im going to post, then edit, many times, so i dont lose everything again. Be patient, as i work through this.

Quote "There is this theory, which is the most often repeated/used (and entirely plausible as far as I know)"

The reason i have this theory isn't because im repeating what i read elsewhere. I have a degree in mechanical engineering. Im borrowing from my engineering mechanics, thermodynamics, and materials properties background for the following explanations.

So, you can see the flange on the manifold is about an inch thick. I didnt measure, but im going to guess, about an inch.

download.png

Now, some materials properties: the coefficient of cubic expansion for cast iron is .0000060 inches, per inch, per degree F.

On a normal 70° day, during normal driving, you exhaust manifold will be about 1200° . Higher if towing up a grade, lower if idling, etc.

So, if the manifold regularly changes from 70° to 1200°, thats a change of 1130°

So, a little math: .0000060 x 1130 = .00678

That means the manifold flange thickness changes from 1.000 inches thick to 1.00678 inches thick, every time you drive. It then shrinks back from 1.00678 to 1.000 every time it cools down.

So, lets work out the numbers for a guy who lives somewhere cold, and tows his trailer up a mountain. Lets Let its 0° outside, and his manifolds heat to 1800° while towing up Donner Pass:

.0000060 x 1800 = .0108 so, in this case the thickness changes from 1" to 1.0108", the back, every time the guy tows up Donner Pass.

So, if the thickness off the flange changes, that obviously means the bolt stretches by the same amount.

Now, we will do some stress analysis on the bolts/screws.

Im going to calculate the tensile stress on the screws based on their normal torque values, them im going to add the additional stress caused by the thermal expansion of the manifold flanges.

First, the bolt tensile stress from normal torque alone using the equation T=cDF

The screws are m8x1.25mm and have a nominal minor diameter of 6.68mm

So, using the above equation i find 3461 lbs of force spread over .0531 square inches of section area (R^2π of the bolts minor diameter). It tensile stress, this = 65,301 psi of tensile stress.

A286 steel is used to make exhaust manifold screws due to its ability to maintain its tensile strength at high temperatures. Other grades of steel soften when heated to 1300° and above. So, Ram uses A286, which has a tensile strength of 90,000 psi.

So, when torqued to 16ft lbs, the screws are under 65,301 psi of tensile stress. They will yeild and permanently deform at 90,000 psi of tensile stress.

Now, the question is, how much more stress does it add when stretched .00678" more?

And, when towing up Mt Motherhumper, and they are stretched .0108" more, how much additional stress is added?

Lets work that out...

For the tensile stress calculations, im going to use Hookes law and associated equations. dl =FL/EA

Forgive all the typos. The fuking autocorrect and autoformat on my phone must have been programmed by an idiot.




Actually, nevermind. I dont have a pen and paper handy, and trying to do these calculations on my phones word processor is maddening!!

Suffice it to say, the reason not everyone experiences the same breakage frequency is pretty obvious. We dont all drive the same way.

I live in WA state and i tow over mountain passes. In winter, my manifolds heat from 0° up to 1800°ish.

If i lived in Phoenix, and used my truck to take the kids to the mall, then my manifolds would regularly experience going from 115° up to 1200°, and might last a couple thousand years.

This could be fixed with thinner flanges, larger diameter screws or some combination of the two.
 
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18ram18

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You know thats really not much thermal growth. .006-.010. A piece of paper is .004.
 
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