Synthetic Oil

Wild one said:

Common sense doesn't seem to be in your corner does it,lol. Lets flip your question,prove they aren't closed at highway speeds at 230.You seem to want to contradict what alot of guys are finding while towing.

Click to expand...

Lets look at this logically. Ram does all this work to build a truck that can tow. It introduces a shutter system designed to keep the truck as much as possible between two temps. It wants the shutters closed when the truck is cold so that it builds heat as quickly as possible. But it also comes with a fan and thermostat to prevent it from overheating. Do you think it's at all logical that when the truck is approaching 230+ degrees, that Ram wouldn't account for that? They just blindly keep the shutters closed as the truck is overheating because hey we're on the highway and the shutters got to stay closed while the rad fan is spinning away trying to shed heat?

Think about it my friend, and then see who is the one not using common sense.

I've never said that what I'm posting is the undisputed truth. It's my opinion and understanding that that is how the system works. You're saying I'm wrong, so prove it. And I need more than "there are some guys on a facebook group".

ramffml said:

It introduces a shutter system designed to keep the truck as much as possible between two temps.

Click to expand...

When the grille shutters were introduced they said it was for "improved aerodynamics." Of course, that's a falacy, as the shutters are a good distance behind the grille, and as such they will not have any impact on the aerodynamics of the vehicle.

The video bellow shows how wishful thinking and deceptive marketing work at RAM:

ramffml said:

Do you think it's at all logical that when the truck is approaching 230+ degrees, that Ram wouldn't account for that? They just blindly keep the shutters closed as the truck is overheating because hey we're on the highway and the shutters got to stay closed while the rad fan is spinning away trying to shed heat?

Click to expand...

That's exactly what they do on 4th gen RAMs. I have experienced it. @Wild one already told you to install a camera and check out the behavior of your own truck. Maybe the 5th gen is different. I don't have a 5th gen, and at $60K+ for a Big Horn with a V8 and 4x4 I took a hard pass. And I can still borrow my old RAM from my dad when I need it. Point being that I will never get a chance to find out how the 5th gen shutters are programmed. The 4th gen were a disaster.

FalconHemi said:

When the grille shutters were introduced they said it was for "improved aerodynamics." Of course, that's a falacy, as the shutters are a good distance behind the grille, and as such they will not have any impact on the aerodynamics of the vehicle.

The video bellow shows how wishful thinking and deceptive marketing work at RAM:

Video: 2013 Ram 1500 Pickup Active Grille Shutters

The 2013 Ram 1500 is the first pickup truck with active grille shutters, which automatically close the huge grille when cooling is least needed

youtu.be

That's exactly what they do on 4th gen RAMs. I have experienced it. @Wild one already told you to install a camera and check out the behavior of your own truck. Maybe the 5th gen is different. I don't have a 5th gen, and at $60K+ for a Big Horn with a V8 and 4x4 I took a hard pass. And I can still borrow my old RAM from my dad when I need it. Point being that I will never get a chance to find out how the 5th gen shutters are programmed. The 4th gen were a disaster.

Click to expand...

A 30 second animation of air flowing over the shutters isn't proof of anything. The question isn't "how do closed shutters affect air flow", the question is: "are the shutters still closed at 230 degrees on the highway"?

ramffml said:

are the shutters still closed at 230 degrees on the highway

Click to expand...

Yes, they are on 4th gen RAM trucks.

I have 5th Gen, and have absolutely no clue. My truck is running hot, had it in to "Dealer", they said all sensors normal, so a New 850W FAN is ordered, unknown which slow boat from where ever the part is. I have to turn on MAX AC when I hit driveway to let system cool down a bit before turn off, just is what it is.

FalconHemi said:

Yes, they are on 4th gen RAM trucks.

Click to expand...

Again, how are you determining this?

turkeybird56 said:

I have 5th Gen, and have absolutely no clue. My truck is running hot, had it in to "Dealer", they said all sensors normal, so a New 850W FAN is ordered, unknown which slow boat from where ever the part is. I have to turn on MAX AC when I hit driveway to let system cool down a bit before turn off, just is what it is.

Click to expand...

Running a HEMI cool is extremely important, especially for its longevity. Had I bought a 5th gen RAM, the thermostat would have been the first thing that I would have replaced. If codes popped up, I would have tried a 190F instead of a 180F. RAM implemented a bunch of safeguards on the 5th gen I believe to keep temperatures slightly up. Still, most, if not all, can be defeated. I know that folks who are fortunate enough to own TRX install a 180F thermostat as one of the very first mods. You would think that a 700 HP motor would ship with a decent thermostat from the factory, but no, it's the same 203F junk you get on every other RAM 1500.

turkeybird56 said:

I have 5th Gen, and have absolutely no clue. My truck is running hot, had it in to "Dealer", they said all sensors normal, so a New 850W FAN is ordered, unknown which slow boat from where ever the part is. I have to turn on MAX AC when I hit driveway to let system cool down a bit before turn off, just is what it is.

Click to expand...

that sux tb... guess as long as stelantis is paying just let them find out what is up??

ramffml said:

Again, how are you determining this?

Click to expand...

I explained in these previous posts:

FalconHemi said:

I explained in these previous posts:

Synthetic Oil

@FalconHemi Are there any issues with running the cooler thermostat but keeping the grill shutters?

www.ramforum.com

Synthetic Oil

@FalconHemi Are there any issues with running the cooler thermostat but keeping the grill shutters?

www.ramforum.com

Click to expand...

That's not proof of anything. I can pull my trailer on the same roads on different days and get different measurements.

Again, proof (to me anyway) is video/sensor evidence of the shutters staying closed with your oil temp gauge pegged at or beyond 230.

ramffml said:

That's not proof of anything. I can pull my trailer on the same roads on different days and get different measurements.

Again, proof (to me anyway) is video/sensor evidence of the shutters staying closed with your oil temp gauge pegged at or beyond 230.

Click to expand...

You're more than welcome to follow @Wild one's advice and install a Go-Pro on your grill and obtain your proof as far as your truck is concerned. I know how mine worked, and as @Wild one pointed out, you seem to want to contradict everyone else who already figured out the issue with the grille shutters: https://www.ramforum.com/threads/synthetic-oil.27664/post-2657104

As for proof, I talked about this ad nauseam when I did the delete, and I explained it briefly in previous posts that I also linked in a previous post. Under 30~35 MPH, they are open. You can tell by the lower coolant and oil temperatures. Once you get up to highway speeds, they are closed no matter if you're towing or not. When you're towing any significant amount, your temperatures will quickly rise to 245F~250F, even above that if you're driving on mountainous roads. This is the case for 4th gen RAMs with a ZF8 speed automatic and the HEMI V8 or 3.0 EcoDiesel engine. It's called deductive reasoning. I'm sure you know how it works. You're an adult, after all.

FalconHemi said:

You're more than welcome to follow @Wild one's advice and install a Go-Pro on your grill and obtain your proof as far as your truck is concerned. I know how mine worked, and as @Wild one pointed out, you seem to want to contradict everyone else who already figured out the issue with the grille shutters: https://www.ramforum.com/threads/synthetic-oil.27664/post-2657104

As for proof, I talked about this ad nauseam when I did the delete, and I explained it briefly in previous posts that I also linked in a previous post. Under 30~35 MPH, they are open. You can tell by the lower coolant and oil temperatures. Once you get up to highway speeds, they are closed no matter if you're towing or not. When you're towing any significant amount, your temperatures will quickly rise to 245F~250F, even above that if you're driving on mountainous roads. This is the case for 4th gen RAMs with a ZF8 speed automatic and the HEMI V8 or 3.0 EcoDiesel engine. It's called deductive reasoning. I'm sure you know how it works. You're an adult, after all.

Click to expand...

When you're driving/towing in the city, there is far less sustained demand on the engine. No doubt you see lower temps towing that way than sustained RPMs at 3500 - 5000+ up a steep grade. None of that proves the shutters are open/closed when you say they are. You cannot use your reported temps as proof. I need to see video/sensor data showing the shutters closed while oil temps are > 230.

If I had a nickel for every time I read a report where users/members think they see improvements in whatever they're doing, I wouldn't need to work. Just think of all the guys claiming mpg/hp gains by swapping out the airbox.

I'm not saying you guys are wrong: I'm saying, I personally will not accept anything as proof that you're right, other than video/sensor data. "Confirmation bias" is a real thing.

And no, I'm not going to spend money on a go pro. Why would I? I'm not the one claiming that I'm improving over the factory setup by hacking my truck, and surely one of you guys in this (apparently) large group of testers has done this and verified it already. Right?

(And that's not how it works. You make a claim, you provide the proof. Telling the sceptic to spend his own money to prove you right/wrong is not going to happen anytime soon, at least not with my money.)

ramffml said:

Just think of all the guys claiming mpg/hp gains by swapping out the airbox.

Click to expand...

Last week, I swapped out the airbox, and I saw an uptick in low-end torque. The engine noise changed as well. It's more subdued. I wasn't expecting anything. I just "upgraded" to the box with the bigger opening because the old one had some minor damage, and my OCD couldn't live with it. It took me a few days of driving it to notice the difference, as I wasn't expecting anything. My dad noticed it as well without me telling him what I did. He asked me what I did to it because it drives better. Again, that falls under deductive reasoning, not "confirmation bias." Easier to breathe for the motor, more low-end torque. It's as simple as that.

ramffml said:

I'm not saying you guys are wrong: I'm saying, I personally will not accept anything as proof that you're right

Click to expand...

Conclusively the point of this exchange is moot, and we have nothing further to discuss.

ramffml said:

other than video/sensor data.

Click to expand...

The EVIC provided sensor data, and I listed it in my previous posts in the form of temperature read-outs for coolant/oil temperatures. When I did the delete, I posted pictures. Please look them up.

When I performed the delete, I left the plastic grille and headlights off and had my brother drive the truck in our neighborhood while observing what was happening. On start-up, the computer performed a self-check by closing and opening the shutters, and then they stayed open at low speed while he was driving around.

If you require additional proof, you're more than welcome to participate and do some work of your own by following @Wild one's suggestions.

ramffml said:

And no, I'm not going to spend money on a go pro. Why would I? I'm not the one claiming that I'm improving over the factory setup by hacking my truck, and surely one of you guys in this (apparently) large group of testers has done this and verified it already. Right?

(And that's not how it works. You make a claim, you provide the proof. Telling the sceptic to spend his own money to prove you right/wrong is not going to happen anytime soon, at least not with my money.)

Click to expand...

Then why do you care to get involved in the discussion? I would understand if you had a legitimate need to lower your temperatures. However, all you seem to want is to generate conflict where it doesn't belong while I, @Wild one, and others are trying to help those forum members who want to lower the engine temperatures.

Following your logic or the lack thereof, the next thing we should all question is Red Line's ability to eliminate HEMI ticks. I mean, without video evidence and a decent number of teardowns, how do we know that it works? Because all we have are anecdotes and UOAs that can't really be used to determine engine wear, because that's not what they are meant for. Yet somehow, it is universally accepted that Red Line can improve and lengthen the life of the HEMI and keep the owner out of the shop.

FalconHemi said:

Last week, I swapped out the airbox, and I saw an uptick in low-end torque. The engine noise changed as well. It's more subdued. I wasn't expecting anything. I just "upgraded" to the box with the bigger opening because the old one had some minor damage, and my OCD couldn't live with it. It took me a few days of driving it to notice the difference, as I wasn't expecting anything. My dad noticed it as well without me telling him what I did. He asked me what I did to it because it drives better. Again, that falls under deductive reasoning, not "confirmation bias." Easier to breathe for the motor, more low-end torque. It's as simple as that.


Conclusively the point of this exchange is moot, and we have nothing further to discuss.


The EVIC provided sensor data, and I listed it in my previous posts in the form of temperature read-outs for coolant/oil temperatures. When I did the delete, I posted pictures. Please look them up.

When I performed the delete, I left the plastic grille and headlights off and had my brother drive the truck in our neighborhood while observing what was happening. On start-up, the computer performed a self-check by closing and opening the shutters, and then they stayed open at low speed while he was driving around.

If you require additional proof, you're more than welcome to participate and do some work of your own by following @Wild one's suggestions.


Then why do you care to get involved in the discussion? I would understand if you had a legitimate need to lower your temperatures. However, all you seem to want is to generate conflict where it doesn't belong while I, @Wild one, and others are trying to help those forum members who want to lower the engine temperatures.

Following your logic or the lack thereof, the next thing we should all question is Red Line's ability to eliminate HEMI ticks. I mean, without video evidence and a decent number of teardowns, how do we know that it works? Because all we have are anecdotes and UOAs that can't really be used to determine engine wear, because that's not what they are meant for. Yet somehow, it is universally accepted that Red Line can improve and lengthen the life of the HEMI and keep the owner out of the shop.

Click to expand...

You're getting a lot wrong here. I'm involved in this discussion because I see temps > 250 while towing. That doesn't mean I accept your theory that removing the shutters solves my problem. And what makes you think I'm not here additionally trying to help other members who might be leery of hacking their truck and buying into an unsubstantiated theory?

Speaking of Redline; I literally have whip lash trying to remember your current position on Redline, as it swings violently around from day to day. However, for myself, I do accept Redline as a benefit. The theory was proposed by many, I was intrigued enough to try it, and A) I can hear/verify to my own satisfaction that Redline quiets my engine, and B) scientific testing (which I pay to get done via blackstone labs) shows it works very well when compared to other oils (wear numbers).

How did you verify the "uptick in torque". Seat of the pants or did you do before and after dyno runs? Because at best you get a few hp increase and there is no way you notice that without repeated instrumental testing. I'm spotting a pattern here my friend, it's called "confirmation bias", google it.

As Rick said, purpose of AGS was better aerodynamics for better fuel mileage with the added benefit of quicker warm ups.
Nothing else beneficial about it........especially towing.

Burla said:

that sux tb... guess as long as stelantis is paying just let them find out what is up??

Click to expand...

SENT an email to my SA at Dealership. He is a good guy and does take care of me. Truck was in for "oil" change, tire rotation and "running hot" problem on 1 Feb. I did ask hey, where's my FAN? He said, get this, not expected till July now, and was "ordered" 1 February. Good thing I am able to run and drive truck. I just keep the vehicle stats up in evic when driving and if it starts to get hot, KICK in Max Air to Force FAN to run at full speed. Just is what it is. It gets to 224 some times, kick in MAx Air, and be back down to 199, then shut down. Slight PITA but glad I have a work around.

ramffml said:

I see temps > 250 while towing.

Click to expand...

I described the procedure a few posts back. It won't take you more than 30 minutes to swap out the thermostat. It's more work to remove eight out of twelve shutters, so start with the thermostat and see if you notice an improvement. Also, it's a partial shutter delete, not a full shutter delete. Rather than postulating on a public forum, you should put in some elbow grease if you want to see results and lower your engine temperatures while towing.

ramffml said:

That doesn't mean I accept your theory that removing the shutters solves my problem.

Click to expand...

Rest assured that absolutely nothing will change for your truck's engine operating temperatures while you sit here and argue with me, @Wild one, and others. As stated above, you need to work at it.

ramffml said:

And what makes you think I'm not here additionally trying to help other members

Click to expand...

Your passive-aggressive demeanor is a dead giveaway.

ramffml said:

trying to remember your current position on Redline

Click to expand...

I like Red Line. It solved a few problems for me with crapy Hyundai engines. I also use AMSOIL now. I settled on these two brands. I'm sorry you couldn't remember.

ramffml said:

scientific testing (which I pay to get done via blackstone labs) shows it works very well when compared to other oils (wear numbers)

Click to expand...

You can't infer wear from UOAs. That's not what they're designed to do. You're basing your conclusions on faulty information and wishful thinking. Blackstone is the least accurate lab of them all.

ramffml said:

I can hear/verify to my own satisfaction that Redline quiets my engine

Click to expand...

Did you make any objective measurements? The placebo effect is powerful. But hey, at least you're using Red Line. It's good stuff. It just doesn't work like you think it does.

FalconHemi said:

I described the procedure a few posts back. It won't take you more than 30 minutes to swap out the thermostat. It's more work to remove eight out of twelve shutters, so start with the thermostat and see if you notice an improvement. Also, it's a partial shutter delete, not a full shutter delete. Rather than postulating on a public forum, you should put in some elbow grease if you want to see results and lower your engine temperatures while towing.

Click to expand...

I'm not pulling my front end apart with no evidence that your theory works.

FalconHemi said:

Rest assured that absolutely nothing will change for your truck's engine operating temperatures while you sit here and argue with me, @Wild one, and others. As stated above, you need to work at it.

Click to expand...

No, you need to work intelligently. That means, starting with evidence that your shutters are closed at the temps you have a problem with seeing. For me, that is 230. You don't start ripping into your truck until you know with pretty good certainly that your problem is going to be fixed at the end of it, at least, I don't.

I will however, eventually fix this with a secondary oil cooler and a thermostat that activates around 220 to 230.

FalconHemi said:

Your passive-aggressive demeanor is a dead giveaway.

I like Red Line. It solved a few problems for me with crapy Hyundai engines. I also use AMSOIL now. I settled on these two brands. I'm sorry you couldn't remember.


You can't infer wear from UOAs. That's not what they're designed to do. You're basing your conclusions on faulty information and wishful thinking. Blackstone is the least accurate lab of them all.


Did you make any objective measurements? The placebo effect is powerful. But hey, at least you're using Red Line. It's good stuff. It just doesn't work like you think it does.

Click to expand...

The objective measurements come from Redline. I'll settle for their numbers without a concern in the world. Oil changes are much harder to prove objectively that you're fixing an issue. How do you prove that you're NOT getting tick quicker running it than you would have running factory oil? So I make allowances there, and I do not try to "prove" that Redline is helping me out. It's always an opinion of mine, and I make that clear when asked that my opinion on RL is just an opinion. It's offered as a suggestion.

See the difference? You're making a claim that the shutters are closed at 230. This is very easy to check, but instead you are trying to push the narrative that your temp readings are proof enough. They're not.

All you have to say is "I suspect I fixed the problem based on my readings". Instead you claim you have authortaive data that proves you're right; but you don't have the proof to my satisfaction.

ramffml said:

See the difference?

Click to expand...

I'll defer to @Wild one:

Wild one said:

Common sense doesn't seem to be in your corner does it,lol.

Click to expand...

FalconHemi said:

I'll defer to @Wild one:

Click to expand...

That means as much to me now as it did when he wrote it. It just means that you're trying to make this personal instead of factual.