1500's are really this useless? - Hit the CAT scale today - Disgusted

[TRCM]

I drove with this a few miles from lowes.. i estimate 2800lbs.. that's what bump stops are for.

View attachment 115804

Nah.....you turned those bumpstops into support spacers.....................

 

[10secBu]

So it looks like 1/2 ton owners aren’t happy due to low payload capacity and 3/4 ton owners are complaining about a harsh ride and want to degrade the tires and springs to make them ride like a half ton.

I’m confused here.

This is based on reading several threads here the past couple days in various forums.

 

[Wahrsuul]

Guess I don't get it - it's a "half ton" truck, with almost 3/4 ton capacity and people aren't happy with it? I bought mine for ride quality and to have the convenience of a truck. I'll probably never load it to capacity, but I have it if I need to. Yes, the "others" might carry more, but they also ride like trucks.

I actually bought the 09/Hemi over the 13/Penta because I thought I "might" need the towing capacity.

 

[Kentucky_Mudder]

Hi Everyone,
As a previous Longhorn 3.0 EcoDiesel owner, i am very familiar with the Ram 1500 payload/tongue weight issues. (Ram should be ashamed of this "complex" marketing tool).

If, like me, you have already purchased a 1500...whats done is done! Now we have to get creative! No matter what you do to your truck, the GVW and GCVW are not going to change...but there is some hope. You cant exactly put your truck on a diet, but you CAN relocate some of that weight. Watch your add-ons like LT tires, aftermarket rims, and bed covers. (these can weight more that stock and add to the actual weight of the truck, therefore decreasing your payload capacity) If you do customize...check tire weights with the manufacturer, buy aluminum wheels vs steel, use a vinyl bedcover vs a hard tonneau, etc.

Now for a little weight savings! Remove the spare tire and carrier from the truck, and relocate it to your camper. Make sure you store it behind the axles in your camper. This will do two things: First it will free up at least 100 LBS of extra payload capacity on your tow rig, and secondly (by placing the spare behind the camper axle) you will decrease the tongue weight of the camper. Just make sure you dont take too much weight off the tongue, or things can get really scary in a heartbeat. I typically try to stay in the 10-12% range.

Hope this helps some for those that are crunching numbers.

 

[spoon059]

Watch your add-ons like LT tires, aftermarket rims, and bed covers. (these can weight more that stock and add to the actual weight of the truck, therefore decreasing your payload capacity)


Just make sure you dont take too much weight off the tongue, or things can get really scary in a heartbeat. I typically try to stay in the 10-12% range.

Hope this helps some for those that are crunching numbers.

I've got to disagree with you on some points. You are far better off with heavier Load range D or E tires than passenger car tires that came on your truck. For one thing, part of the reason you have a low payload is because the stock tires were chosen for comfort, not payload carrying. If you are planning to tow towards the upper range of capabilities, heavier LT tires will make your truck handle better and be safer.

Secondly, for a high front wall travel trailer you want a minimum of 12% tongue weight, preferably 13-15%. More tongue weight reduces the likelihood of sway. I'd rather be 100 lbs over my payload but have sufficient tongue weight, rather than be at or below my payload and fighting trailer sway the entire trip.

 

[smurfs_of_war]

I may get lashed for this but I am of the opinion that if you are at the point where you are worrying about weight so much that you start stripping parts off the truck or buy a certain bed cover, rim or tire for the weight properties then you need to rethink your truck or your thought process. Sometimes these forums get guys worrying about things that are really measly. I was one- it cost me a bundle.

Use common sense. Exceeding axle or tire weights is bad. Payload? Personally I think it's bunk. Others disagree. Just try to shoot for "close enough" and use your grey matter. A '34 trailer just plain doesn't look like it belongs on a 1500. You don't need a calculator to figure that out.

Sent from my mobile

 

[RoadRamblerNJ]

Well after buying a brand new Ram 1500 fully setup for towing and planning to upgrade to a larger travel trailer I finally had reality set in (well "legal" reality).

I had been reading threads all over the Interwebs and listened to debates from the "Weight Police" as others call them but still felt fairly comfortable after spreadsheeting my new truck with expected cargo and hitch weights.

Still something was bugging me and everyone said just go get the truck weighed then you know for sure. We only have a few CAT scales here in Southern Ontario but I found one not too far away and went and weighed the new truck this morning.

See the CAT ticket below, this is with a 100% full tank of gas (regular tank, not the extended) and zero cargo and passengers, just the truck which is a:

2017 Ram 1500 Big Horn Crewcab 6' 4" box
Hemi with 8 speed 3.92 Axle
Rambox
Bedliner (linex)
Bakflip G2 tonneau cover
No cargo at all, no driver, not even a "jacket" left in the truck when weighed. Full load of fuel.



So as you can see its:

Gross weight: 5880 lbs
Front axle: 3300 lbs
Rear axle: 2580

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Now is where things get interesting...

FCA (RAM) indicates my truck should be capable of the following (based upon features):

Crew Cab - 6' 4" box 4x4
GVWR: 6900
Payload: 1450
Base Weight: 5451.56
Front: 3223.72
Rear: 2227.84
GAWR: 3900 and 3900
Max Trailer Weight (SAE J2807): 9830

Payload is abysmal but I can work with 1450... I thought!

Data taken from Ram Towing Chart, 2017 for my config of truck:

https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ramtrucks.com%2Fassets%2Ftowing_guide%2Fpdf%2F2017_ram_1500_towing_charts.pdf
---

Now take the stickers on my truck, first the door jamb. Same basic numbers as above.



The the nasty tire sticker (because FCA put Passenger tires on a Truck):



Max load: 1116 lbs ... no where near the 1450 they claimed. No big deal, can upgrade tires... but can you get a new sticker for the new tires? Hmmm...

---

So all that being said now comes the worst part, the TRUE math, no marketing crap or lying dealers/FCA:

GVWR: 6900 lbs
Weight of truck empty but with full fuel: 5880 lbs
6900 - 5880 = 1020 lbs

This leaves us with 1020 lbs of "legal" payload. My god my Jeep Rubicon Unlimited has more payload than this (but sure as hell isn't listed as being cable to tow 9000+ pounds, it's rated for 3500).

So with 1020 lbs lets add driver and family:

Driver: 150 lbs (Yes I'm Mr. Joe Average as per SAE J2807)
Wife: 130 lbs (approximation, I'm not dumb enough to post a real womens weight on the net! lol).
Child 1: 120 lbs
Child 2: 70 lbs
Kids Friend: 70 lbs (they always bring one camping)
---
Total Passengers: 550 lbs

Remaining weight for anything else INCLUDING tongue weight:

1020 lbs - 550 lbs = 470 lbs!!!!!!



---

You gotta be kidding me... if I weighted as much as most normal North Americans (see what I did there... lol), our available payload would be more like 300 lbs! My Motorcycle can legally carry more than that with a passenger!!!

---

I can't believe FCA thinks the Ram can tow 9830 lbs, that would be a tongue weight of 983 lbs.

1020 - 983 lbs = 37 lbs of cargo before even the driver is added!


---

Ok lets go by what they said was my original base (before Rambox, tonneau, Linex), they indicated it was 5451.56 lbs.

(as per "2017 RAM 1500 Trailer Towing Chart - SAE J2807 Compliant")

6900 GVWR - 5451.56 base = 1448.44 lbs of cargo

9830 Max Trailer with 10% tongue weight = 983 lbs

1448.44 - 983 = 465.44 lbs

Passenger Weight 300 lbs (SAE J2807)

465.44 - 300 = 165.44 lbs remaining Payload

Hitch 65 lbs (SAE J2807)

165.44 - 65 = 100.44 lbs remaining Payload

Good lord, yes they didn't lie, their chart is accurate but your truck is maxed and cannot have ANY other options and only 100 lbs of cargo... Disgusting.

---

So as you can see, putting a family in a 1500 and expecting to "legally" tow a Travel Trailer is basically impossible. Don't forget this is with NO cargo in the front passthrough storage of the trailer such as oh I don't know, lawn chairs lol. Very disgusted by all this and I hope this thread helps anyone in the future even considering a 1500 for towing... forget it. Get a 2500 or bigger.


My existing travel trailer, a tiny little Jayco 17z hybrid (3500 max GVWR) has a dry (read: WAY underrated in the brochure) weight of 340 lbs. Add battery and two propane tanks:

340 + 50lbs Battery + 37 lbs LP + 37lbs LP = 464 lbs calculated and that is with weight in the front storage.

So my truck with family in it (and no jackets, food, video games, iPhones lol) has just 470 lbs of payload left.

470 - 464 lbs = 6 lbs of Cargo left!!!!

So my brand new killer pickup CANNOT legally tow my little tiny 17z trailer that my Jeep unlimited could (legally). And this is without a real hitch weight... I have a sherline scale so I'm going to go out and weight the 17z in a few minutes just to see what the REAL tongue weight is.

EDIT: Just weighed the Jayco 17z with unknown qty of propane but most other junk in trailer.... 550 lbs on Sherline scale. I can't legall toy this tiny trailer lol!

Insanity.

---

Now yes, I see Ram Hemi's every day (Laramies with full air suspension) pulling 37 foot Starcraft monsters loaded to the gills... The truck "can" do it, just not legally. Going to open a beer tonight and throw darts at random objects lol...

---

Please someone tell me where my math went wrong lol!

Cheers
Tim

My friend, you do the math like I do. Only difference is I don't expect other people to read it. 'Bout half way thru, I went cross eyed. Near the end my brain hurt. I did read it all and I guess thats why when I bought my truck I said "F**k it, I think I'll get a 2500 this time". I hate math. Lol

Not 1st, 2nd or 3rd? No Trophy!

 

[Black W900]

I pull a 27' travel trailer with my 1500 Longhorn all the time, The trailer weighs 4500 pounds unladen.
I use a weight distribution hitch and I don't load a ton of useless crap in my trailer.
Am I overweight with the truck/trailer combination? Maybe.
I don't worry about it much, the truck pulls the trailer like a champ and it's very stable running down the road.

I'm not hitting a CAT Scale to check axle weights and gross weights, because frankly....I don't care as long as the truck pulls it alright and doesn't squat or sway.

 

[Cosmos]

I went down this road in 2012 when I purchased my Longhorn. I figured out 1500's are for light towing. I have towed 7500lbs often but worry about wearing the truck out. I look forward to the 2500 Gen5.

 

[BruceMorgan]

I went down this road recently after buying a 21', 3900 lbs dry weight travel trailer at the Seattle RV show. I was hoping to tow it with my 2007 Nissan Frontier King Cab Nismo edition. The trailer has a GVWR of 5300, and I didn't expect too much payload - it's just me, my wife, and our Corgi for 3-5 day camping trips. The math worked out because the truck has a door sticker payload of 1156 lbs, adequate GVWR, GCWR, front and rear axle weights, etc. And I used a well-adjusted Equalizer WHD, Sherline tongue weight scale, hit the CAT scales to verify, etc. But it wasn't a fun tow experience at all. The rear axle isn't geared for towing at 80% max GCWR, so the 4.0L V6 and six-speed automatic were clearly straining. I worried about the transmission. The trailer "pushed" too much braking downhill, and there was a lot of porpoise-ing due to 90%+ payload. Not white-knuckle towing, but not cruise-down-the-road at all.

So I went shopping for a new truck, very specifically looking at buying a truck that could tow the trailer comfortably and be well within capabilities, but not going overboard. I very quickly found what the OP discovered, but it's not just Ram trucks - most of the "half ton" trucks have already used up most of their "book" payload for options! This is something that seems to be "hidden in plain sight" - you can easily crunch the numbers, the door payload sticker is right there!

It's clear from the tow guides that the most capable version of any tow vehicle is the base model with minimal options because it's the lightest. If you want the highest tow out of a Frontier, or a Silverado, or a Ram, or an F150 it's the regular cab 2x4 "work truck" version. The bigger cabs weight more and eat up the payload capacity. The longer boxes weigh more too, and so do power seats, leather, storage boxes, hard tonneau covers, bed mats, so on and so forth.

I looked at an F150 with door sticker payload of 950 lbs - less than my Frontier - because it was the crew cab 4x4 with a long box and a ton of options. Nice truck, but it couldn't tow my 21' trailer much better than my Nissan. Maybe a bit better, due to wheelbase and weight, but not enough better.

I looked at an extended cab Colorado with a door sticker payload of 1250 lbs - a little bit more than the Frontier - which was nice but had a tiny interior.

I looked at several more like that. It was clear that most of the trucks used up their payload on the creature comforts (which is fine), but it's a tradeoff. Basically it's how many ANDs can you add together before you're forced to OR instead. 1500 AND crew cab AND long box AND five passenger family AND Rambox AND optioned-up interior forces you to "OR" towing a large trailer. Or like the OP, much of any trailer.

My 2017 Express 5.7 Hemi quad cab with P275/60R20 tires and tow package has a door sticker payload of 1531 lbs. That was 150 lbs higher than the next best, a Tundra, and 375 lbs higher than my Frontier. With my expected payload, I can drive that AND a hard tonneau cover AND (other stuff) AND it certainly tows my trailer much better than the Frontier.
​

 

[GsRAM]

True for the most part. Despite the 1/2 tons low payload rating you looked at they would have pulled your trailer way better than your frontier did because they are twice the truck your frontier was all around. Yes; by the numbers they would have been overweight.

I disagree with the one post last page or so. I (and several other) 3/4 ton owners enjoy our trucks and dont complain a lick about ride quality. I never have at least and I run around 70 psi in my tires. On the contrary, compared to some of the other 2500 and 3500 series trucks I've driven, this one rides quite well actually. Just my opinion, though I am old school and feel a truck should ride like a truck and not a Cadillac like my 2015 1500 Silverado did.

Chevy must have something figured out though because that Silverado rode like a Cadillac, yet still had over 1700lbs of pay and it was a very well optioned 4x4 crew cab z71 to boot. Decent trucks, just too many issues for me to deal with. Again all this is simply my opinion. YMMV

 

[River19]

I love how my 2500 rides. Does it ride like my Tundra or GX? No, but it has 3000lbs of payload and for a rig with that type of capability it rides very well. I always have my tires in the 75-80psi range.

I'm disappointed to read about the 1500 capability as I was thinking that might eventually make a great second tow rig for our TT for horse shows. Horses go with the 2500, RV goes now with the GX, which is capable but I would like to have a "1/2" ton that gets reasonable empty mileage to tow the TT......but by the numbers they really have no more capability than the Lexus GX...... BUT they have the wheelbase which would be better. Our Tundra is a 1GEn with 250K on it set up as a hunting rig primarily.....so no towing

Seems like you have to be very careful buying a "1/2ton" if you plan on towing.....especially if you are thinking of a tongue weight in the 600-900lb range.....and have a family etc. lol

 

[mohemipar]

I also like the ride of the 2500. Is it stiffer than a 1500… sure. But I swear people blow it way out of proportion. It just feels like a modern HD truck. Us Ram guys have nice modern coils that soften the ride but still can handle massive weight. Looking at how people talk on the internet you’d think you were driving down the road in a piece of farming equipment. Overall this truck is like riding in luxury compared to some from not too long ago. And knowing I have over 3,000 pounds of actual stickered payload for loading it up with whatever + people makes it that much more worth a slightly stiffer ride. You don’t even have to think about it. I measured to the center of the wheel arches once before loading around 1300 pounds of wood in it and then again after the weight, and it had no squat. With still a lot to spare. 1300 pounds is actually just under what the stickered payload was on my 1500 and I know she would have been squatting pretty good. Put just myself in to drive and I would have been over the sticker. Not a bad tradeoff for a little stiffness over bumps.

 

[BruceMorgan]

True for the most part. Despite the 1/2 tons low payload rating you looked at they would have pulled your trailer way better than your frontier did because they are twice the truck your frontier was all around. Yes; by the numbers they would have been overweight.

I certainly wasn't going to intentionally buy a truck that was already overweight by the numbers, or had lower door stickers than my current truck.

Modern mid-sized trucks are very capable vehicles; there's no way I'd say my Frontier was "half the truck" of my new Ram for the usual variety of suburban truck owner uses. But the smaller trucks do lack total payload and the grunt for towing larger trailers.

 

[geekything]

Driver: 150 lbs (Yes I'm Mr. Joe Average as per SAE J2807)

For what it's worth, SAE J2807 specifies 300lb of passenger weight. 150lb for the driver and 150 for his or her passenger. Doesn't help you a huge amount, but I think in your situation every little counts.

I have a GVWR 3500# (2500# dry) trailer too. I'm going through a different set of worries -- i have more payload on my V6 than you do, but do I have the engine?

Good luck from a fellow Ontarian.

 

[GsRAM]

I certainly wasn't going to intentionally buy a truck that was already overweight by the numbers, or had lower door stickers than my current truck.

Modern mid-sized trucks are very capable vehicles; there's no way I'd say my Frontier was "half the truck" of my new Ram for the usual variety of suburban truck owner uses. But the smaller trucks do lack total payload and the grunt for towing larger trailers.

. It was a figure of speech, in part. However, I was seriously considering a frontier before I bought my then 2015 Silverado 1500. Did you crawl underneath the frontier versus your ram? The frame, axles suspension components, etc on the half tons are way more substantial than the frontier.

That was the point I was trying to make. Despite the similar payload figures, the 1/2 ton ram, f150, Silverado is a lot more substantial than a frontier. Heck, my 2005 ford escape 4 cylinder has something like 900 lbs of payload but it obviously is nothing
Iike a half ton truck. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[tidefan1967]

Why would anybody buy a half ton for a retirement camping/tow vehicle? Personally if I did any regular towing that came within 3/4 of the weight limit I would never consider a 1500. 1500's nowadays are mostly designed as fancy people haulers with a LITTLE light towing/hauling ability thrown in. Hell the new Honda Ridgeline thingy is rated to tow like 3500lbs but why in the hell would you want too?

 

[River19]

We are members of a few FB groups for various travel trailers in addition to the Winnebago we have, it seems weekly there is a post from someone with a "1/2" ton rig of whatever brand that is coming to the scary conclusion that their "Best in class blah blah blah".....towing/payload/power/cupholder count etc. doesn't mean **** when you do the math. And they go out to buy a trailer thinking as long as they stay under 10K lbs they are perfectly fine, then come to find out their 8000lb trailer with 850lb tongue weight dry is too much and there is no way they can tow that and take the wife, 2 kids, dog and kayaks camping in their new $65K platinum/titanium/king horn luxury cruiser because it has a payload of a single axle utility trailer......

Tough reality slap. I'll stick with overbuying the trucks for plenty of capacity "head room"......that being said I feel their pain a bit as my second tow vehicle is limited to 650lb tongue weight and so I have become a weight wennie while towing with that lighter rig when the 2500 is in use.

 

[GsRAM]

We are members of a few FB groups for various travel trailers in addition to the Winnebago we have, it seems weekly there is a post from someone with a "1/2" ton rig of whatever brand that is coming to the scary conclusion that their "Best in class blah blah blah".....towing/payload/power/cupholder count etc. doesn't mean **** when you do the math. And they go out to buy a trailer thinking as long as they stay under 10K lbs they are perfectly fine, then come to find out their 8000lb trailer with 850lb tongue weight dry is too much and there is no way they can tow that and take the wife, 2 kids, dog and kayaks camping in their new $65K platinum/titanium/king horn luxury cruiser because it has a payload of a single axle utility trailer......

Tough reality slap. I'll stick with overbuying the trucks for plenty of capacity "head room"......that being said I feel their pain a bit as my second tow vehicle is limited to 650lb tongue weight and so I have become a weight wennie while towing with that lighter rig when the 2500 is in use.

Well said. Agreed.

 

[Wahrsuul]

While I agree with many of the points here, I don't see the 1/2 tons as "useless people haulers". I agree that people need to be more diligent about getting the facts and not the marketing hype. I bought a 1500 for a couple for reasons, ride quality being one. Yes a 2500 rides nice, but in the end its not as smooth as the 1500, and I didn't need that capacity. When it comes time to haul, I know what the limits are and I work with them in my chosen vehicle. Blaming the truck for not having the capacity you need/want is like blaming the hammer for hitting your thumb.

I'm looking at TTs now, and I'm looking to stay at or below 4500lbs dry, preferably less. According to the various charts, my 5.7/5sp/3.55/20" is good for around 6600lbs towing. Most of the TTs I've looked at are around 5200 loaded, so with me, SWAMBO, the mutt and enough stuff, I figure we still have room to spare. as a bonus, the weight limit keeps me from looking at TTs that are more than I need, and also more expensive.