2017 6.4 G56 swap

[Kuhndog970]

Will the BGE stock auto crank accept a pilot bushing/bearing from the factory?

I will find out this weekend. Sure looks like it will from looking at it. This weekend is the install phase. Test fitting a bunch and all that. First I will change out my rear main for cheap insurance, then throw the flywheel up there. I'll toss the g56 up there and see what it tells me. Measurement wise, the bellhousing is the same. Should honestly bolt in no problem. Then the cutting the floor part. That is going to be a slow process. Don't want to mess that up. I will post updates here as I get going.

 

[Kuhndog970]

I don't have any experience working with transmissions, and I don't have access to a lift. It wasn't easy to find a mechanic that will take on the job. If you want to do a swap like this and cannot do it yourself, your best bet is indie Mexican mechanics! So far, only the Mexican mechanics I talked to would say it's doable. These shops are one man, cash only, and they do not show up as auto repair shops on GMaps. They don't even have names. The first guy that gave me the sky high quote was the brother of the (also Mexican) mechanic I usually work with - and that shop is also a shady cash-only garage, but he does some amazing jobs. The second shop - the one I have decided to work with for this swap, I met the guy at an auto parts shop.

My mechanic appears very confident about the programming part. I have absolutely no clue how that thing works. Please share any information you guys might have on that!

I'll be honest. 2k for this job is wildly low. The 16 to 18 is right where I have figured it would price it if doing it for other people. I would be very cautious on letting that guy tear into your truck. You get what you pay for as they say. As far as the tuning goes, engine side seems straight forward. Disable auto trans and disable mds. The bcm and rf hub tuning is where the magic comes into play and I'm not messing with that. Best of luck.

 

[catscape]

I'll be honest. 2k for this job is wildly low. The 16 to 18 is right where I have figured it would price it if doing it for other people. I would be very cautious on letting that guy tear into your truck. You get what you pay for as they say. As far as the tuning goes, engine side seems straight forward. Disable auto trans and disable mds. The bcm and rf hub tuning is where the magic comes into play and I'm not messing with that. Best of luck.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll try to stop by very often and keep an eye on it while my truck is in the shop. That 16k quote included parts and he claimed he'd be using a brand new G56 which I have no clue where to find, but rebuilt G56's usually cost 7k+ by itself with core charges included. So I assume a major part of that 16k comes from the transmission and other parts. That said I can agree that 2k would be an underestimate of the efforts needed.

Any ideas what BCM and RF hub tuning might be needed? I thought it would just be an ECM flash, just not sure if the Hemi ECM has that option.

 

[Kuhndog970]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll try to stop by very often and keep an eye on it while my truck is in the shop. That 16k quote included parts and he claimed he'd be using a brand new G56 which I have no clue where to find, but rebuilt G56's usually cost 7k+ by itself with core charges included. So I assume a major part of that 16k comes from the transmission and other parts. That said I can agree that 2k would be an underestimate of the efforts needed.

Any ideas what BCM and RF hub tuning might be needed? I thought it would just be an ECM flash, just not sure if the Hemi ECM has that option.

For tuning, all I care to know, is that AJ said he knows all the buttons are there he just has to push them.
I'm not sure where that guy found a new hemi g56. But parts and labor, that's not a bad price in my eyes as it is a complete shot in the dark at this point.

 

[04fxdwgi]

Right off the bat, I see at least 6 items that may need to be changed going from an 8 speed to a manual



I am not familiar with the programming, but my '16 8 speed shows this

 

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Right off the bat, I see at least 6 items that may need to be changed going from an 8 speed to a manual

View attachment 586982

I am not familiar with the programming, but my '16 8 speed shows this

View attachment 586983

I took a look at a sample tuning file from a '15 2500 with the 6.4. Available options for "trans type" are: 40TE/41TE/41TEA, 42RLE, 545RFE/65RFE, 62TE and 66RFE. This is not looking good - I don't see a manual option here. I assume they stopped using the "manual transmission" vs "8-speed transmission" to differentiate between models and switched to the more specific "trans type".

I have not yet bought the tuning tools and software so can't test this out. Maybe OP can confirm if the '17 6.4 uses the same format, and if toggling "manual transmission" here can fix engine error codes when the 66RFE sensors are gone?

Under Engine > Fuel > Lean / Fuel-Saving there is the option to disable MDS so that should not be an issue. Everything else seems doable with AlfaOBD. The "trans type" issue looks like the last missing piece to me.

PS. Among all the different GPEC2A operating systems, only the Ram with 6.4L seems to use "trans type" rather than the toggles below it.

 

[Wild one]

I took a look at a sample tuning file from a '15 2500 with the 6.4. Available options for "trans type" are: 40TE/41TE/41TEA, 42RLE, 545RFE/65RFE, 62TE and 66RFE. This is not looking good - I don't see a manual option here. I assume they stopped using the "manual transmission" vs "8-speed transmission" to differentiate between models and switched to the more specific "trans type".

I have not yet bought the tuning tools and software so can't test this out. Maybe OP can confirm if the '17 6.4 uses the same format, and if toggling "manual transmission" here can fix engine error codes when the 66RFE sensors are gone?

Under Engine > Fuel > Lean / Fuel-Saving there is the option to disable MDS so that should not be an issue. Everything else seems doable with AlfaOBD. The "trans type" issue looks like the last missing piece to me.

PS. Among all the different GPEC2A operating systems, only the Ram with 6.4L seems to use "trans type" rather than the toggles below it.

View attachment 586990

I think a good tuner with HP can change the transmission to where you shouldn't have any codes or drivability issues.There's guys running around with 727 and turbo 400 automatics with no codes,but it's been done through HP not AlphaOBD.
As a last resort hunt up Russell at Sound German Automotive and see what he reconmends

 

[catscape]

I think a good tuner with HP can change the transmission to where you shouldn't have any codes or drivability issues.There's guys running around with 727 and turbo 400 automatics with no codes,but it's been done through HP not AlphaOBD.
As a last resort hunt up Russell at Sound German Automotive and see what he reconmends

Thank you for the pointer - I took note of that and will reach out if things don't work well.

This screenshot is from HP tuner loaded with a 6.4 Ram's hpt file. I doubt if the ECU in these trucks supports manual transmissions at all. I checked all GPEC2A hpt files I can find. The Challengers do not have the "trans type" switch regardless. On stock manual Challengers "manual transmission" is enabled and everything else disabled. On stock automatic Challengers one of the "x-speed transmission" is enabled and "manual transmission" is disabled. The same goes for 1500's with the 5.7. That is why I am concerned now about whether it's possible to tune a 6.4 Ram ECU to remove trans-related codes.

That said, I may buy a used ECU from a 1500 to play around with. I think that should support manual transmissions and I can tune the parameters for the 6.4 otherwise. Anyone with related experience can let me know if it sounds like a dumb idea to throw in a 1500 5.7 ECU? The hardware model is exactly the same and should plug right in.

One potential problem with this is the VIN number in an ECU must match the operating system. At least that's what HP tuner says. So I might be stuck with a 1500 VIN in my ECU and I'll need to re-program my BCM and RFH to match it. There may even be more parts with VIN validation that I need to take care of. AlfaOBD has the procedure to change VIN in BCM, and there's another procedure to "reset" the RFH after replacing it which I assume updates the VIN in it.

I'll call my local tuner and AJ next week to see what they think.

 

[04fxdwgi]

Thank you for the pointer - I took note of that and will reach out if things don't work well.

This screenshot is from HP tuner loaded with a 6.4 Ram's hpt file. I doubt if the ECU in these trucks supports manual transmissions at all. I checked all GPEC2A hpt files I can find. The Challengers do not have the "trans type" switch regardless. On stock manual Challengers "manual transmission" is enabled and everything else disabled. On stock automatic Challengers one of the "x-speed transmission" is enabled and "manual transmission" is disabled. The same goes for 1500's with the 5.7. That is why I am concerned now about whether it's possible to tune a 6.4 Ram ECU to remove trans-related codes.

That said, I may buy a used ECU from a 1500 to play around with. I think that should support manual transmissions and I can tune the parameters for the 6.4 otherwise. Anyone with related experience can let me know if it sounds like a dumb idea to throw in a 1500 5.7 ECU? The hardware model is exactly the same and should plug right in.

One potential problem with this is the VIN number in an ECU must match the operating system. At least that's what HP tuner says. So I might be stuck with a 1500 VIN in my ECU and I'll need to re-program my BCM and RFH to match it. There may even be more parts with VIN validation that I need to take care of. AlfaOBD has the procedure to change VIN in BCM, and there's another procedure to "reset" the RFH after replacing it which I assume updates the VIN in it.

I'll call my local tuner and AJ next week to see what they think.

your truck, being a 15, will have a locked ECM / PCM. When you send in your PCM for the unlock, they can change the VIN in it for you.

You can also do it with AlfaOBD.

Almost every module in the truck, including the TCM, and dash are VIN matched.

Pretty sure these trucks support a manual xmission, perhaps just not the specific one that someone may choose.
Screenshot of AlfaOBD for a '17 2500 transmission selection.

Also believe that to get things to work correctly, there will need to be manipulation with both HP and AlfaOBD. HP for the ECM / PCM /TCM and AlfaOBD for the BCM. Other wise, you'd be chasing ghosts and gremlins for ever because there will be incompatibilities.

Have also heard of some that selected a different year vehicle that had a specific feature and loaded it with no ill effects.
Best of luck to them, as I don't believe that sounds like a good idea.

 

[Kuhndog970]

We are about to find out some things.

 

[Kuhndog970]

Ok so after throwing it up there I have found the the fuel lines might be an issue. I might be able to make up a bracket but that's for later. The pilot bearing is too large diameter that comes in the south bend clutch kit. Looks like the factory one is different. I will pick up one and see what I see. I don't think anything so far has jumped out at me like it will not work. I think this is more than doable.

 

[catscape]

Ok so after throwing it up there I have found the the fuel lines might be an issue. I might be able to make up a bracket but that's for later. The pilot bearing is too large diameter that comes in the south bend clutch kit. Looks like the factory one is different. I will pick up one and see what I see. I don't think anything so far has jumped out at me like it will not work. I think this is more than doable.

From what I learned none of SBC or Valair stuff will work. You specifically need the Sachs K70351-01 or LuK 05-116 clutch. The correct clutch has 1-1/8 input shaft size and SBC has 1-3/8. Disc size is also different. More details in my previous post. Do let me know if you manage to put that SBC clutch in though.

 

[catscape]

Do you have any clue if you will need to do something to the RF Hub? I looked into it more today. One guy on Youtube mentioned swapping in the 68234885AB. These are from 2015 G56 Laramies with push button start, and allows you to keep the push button functionality. He had to wire pin 15 on that module to the ECM or the truck wouldn't start, but his ECM was for the Cummins so I don't think it works the same way for us. From the comments it seems like the truck starts just fine without any RF Hub work until you put in the manual ECM tuning, so what exactly needs to be done may depend on what we do to the ECM, which I'm still unsure about.

I purchased HP tuners for myself yesterday so I have more freedom to dig around and experiment with possible ways to go. It's pretty nice that they offer a free ECM unlock if you buy 6 credits along with the OBD dongle (that's $300 extra while the unlock service is $250 by itself and you need 2 credits to license a truck anyways).