2023 alpine 9 speaker upgrade question

[skates15]

I ended up buying 2 sets for front dash and rear headliner - Kenwood Excelon KFC-X3C 3.5" 2 way. I got these because they were in sale for black Friday at crutchfield. They are drop-in. I wanted to get the audio frog but they have never gone on sale. Maybe another time.

I also got CDT 69S 6x9 2 way slim speakers for the front doors.

And CDT 69SEX 6x9 3 way for the rear doors. They are also slim drop-in.

Bought the Metra cables and NVX BAF69 6x9 baffles for the door speakers. These baffles have open backs and should keep water off the speakers without muddling them.

I also got 42sqft of NVX sound dampers for the doors and a smooth rubber roller (no cleets).

I plan to install over the holidays and will probably throw some fill in the stock sub.

Next year I will add the Pac amp pro module (with TOS) and MatchUp 8 amp/dsp (with USB). In the meantime ill be rocking an iFi hip-dac3 s- balanced 3.5mm to the Alpine Aux with the offset slider up a few notches in the Alpine audio settings.

Rabbit hole got expensive but cheaper than the 5k quoted at the local audio shop. I think this is a decent bang for buck considering the CDT was half off.

 

[Black-Wolf]

Not to put any holes in your theory but, do you have any proof of the stock signal like the graph I show here? This is not the Ram 1500 stock signal. This is from my previous vehicle but you can see how the signal falls off below 200 and above 10k. Many stock systems do the same. I have doubts the Ram is much different. I did not measure the stock signal however, before I replaced all the front speakers and added a sub.
View attachment 533158View attachment 533158

Actually, the graph above shows what I was trying to explain on the high end (4 kHz and above) - though I expect it'll completely drop off after 5 kHz in the RAMs. I only have what I've read - that the Alpine Amp only pushes 5 kHz and below to the front door speakers. I do know from my personal observation, that the front door speakers DO produce quite a bit of bass, but - I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they drop off below 40 or 50 Hz. I'd be willing to take these kinds of measurements and post the results - but I've never done this and don't even know what software/hardware you'd use. If you have suggestions on what I should use, let me know!

 

[platoon2063]

Actually, the graph above shows what I was trying to explain on the high end (4 kHz and above) - though I expect it'll completely drop off after 5 kHz in the RAMs. I only have what I've read - that the Alpine Amp only pushes 5 kHz and below to the front door speakers. I do know from my personal observation, that the front door speakers DO produce quite a bit of bass, but - I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they drop off below 40 or 50 Hz. I'd be willing to take these kinds of measurements and post the results - but I've never done this and don't even know what software/hardware you'd use. If you have suggestions on what I should use, let me know!

I wish I had taken some measurements of the stock system before removing it. For a stock system, it wasn't too shabby. 90% of the average Joe is probably happy with it. Then again "you don't know what you don't know". The stock audio system sounds good until you hear someone's aftermarket system......then it's Wow! I didn't know it could sound better. Just this weekend I listened to a professional audio installer's system. I thought mine sounded dang good but after hearing his......well there's always something better I suppose.
This graph shows what just changing the front speakers, adding 2 subwoofers and properly eq'ing can do. I'm no expert for sure. You can see I have nice bass output, then the middle frequencies are rather smoothed/leveled which is where a lot of the vocals & harmonics of sound are located then the top end fades away (likely because I don't have tweeters to properly replicate the highs in music).

 

[Black-Wolf]

I wish I had taken some measurements of the stock system before removing it. For a stock system, it wasn't too shabby. 90% of the average Joe is probably happy with it. Then again "you don't know what you don't know". The stock audio system sounds good until you hear someone's aftermarket system......then it's Wow! I didn't know it could sound better. Just this weekend I listened to a professional audio installer's system. I thought mine sounded dang good but after hearing his......well there's always something better I suppose.
This graph shows what just changing the front speakers, adding 2 subwoofers and properly eq'ing can do. I'm no expert for sure. You can see I have nice bass output, then the middle frequencies are rather smoothed/leveled which is where a lot of the vocals & harmonics of sound are located then the top end fades away (likely because I don't have tweeters to properly replicate the highs in music).
View attachment 533196

Is that for the entire system, or just one speaker? What I've been given to understand/have been told - is that the front doors don't output above 5 kHz because the Alpine Amp doesn't push those frequencies to the front door speakers. If that's true, then tweeters should be used in the dash corners to fill in those highs. I'd want to test each speaker pair at a minimum (dash corners, front doors, back doors, headliner) to see how they perform, or better yet, each channel off the amp individually. That'd give me the info I need to improve the system, and perhaps help others better.

 

[Rayzaa]

I ended up putting Infinity REF 9633 6x9 in my front doors an Infinty 6.5 Ref 6532 in the rear doors. It was between them and Rockford Fosgates. Just think the Infinitys sounded a little better. At the time i got all four in a package deal for $186 after taxes which also included the speaker harnesses from Metra.

Great thing is if nobody has thought of doing this, i didnt need to grills that came with the speakers and i ended up selling all four of them on eBay at different times. The 6x9's went fast. 6.5's took a little time but i recovered $15 for the rears and $20 for the fronts. Not that i needed it. I just didnt want them laying around making clutter and taking up space.

 

[skates15]

Is that for the entire system, or just one speaker? What I've been given to understand/have been told - is that the front doors don't output above 5 kHz because the Alpine Amp doesn't push those frequencies to the front door speakers. If that's true, then tweeters should be used in the dash corners to fill in those highs. I'd want to test each speaker pair at a minimum (dash corners, front doors, back doors, headliner) to see how they perform, or better yet, each channel off the amp individually. That'd give me the info I need to improve the system, and perhaps help others better.

There is a graph floating around which shows the stock frequency response. the rear doors are the fullest spectrum and then the 3.5 dash and rear headliner and then the front doors are essentially mid-bass. A popular setup is wide band in the dash, mid bass in the front doors and either stock in the rear and headliner disabled or 3 way rear doors and stock headliners. I plan to go wideband dash and headliners when I can afford it. For now its the Kenwood for dash and rear headliner. Some folks disable the center dash, or leave as-is with wideband corner dash.

Depends on the soundstage you are going for. I like rear fill with presence, hence the CDT 3 way for the rear and Kenwood for rear headliners. I'm going for drop in no modifications. Probably will go with Audiofrog to replace the Kenwood later next year when I finish the rest of the upgrade with amp/dsp/Pac ampro.

 

[platoon2063]

Is that for the entire system, or just one speaker? What I've been given to understand/have been told - is that the front doors don't output above 5 kHz because the Alpine Amp doesn't push those frequencies to the front door speakers. If that's true, then tweeters should be used in the dash corners to fill in those highs. I'd want to test each speaker pair at a minimum (dash corners, front doors, back doors, headliner) to see how they perform, or better yet, each channel off the amp individually. That'd give me the info I need to improve the system, and perhaps help others better.

It's the 4 front and 2 subs. Yes, I believe you are correct. The Alpine front door speakers are lower frequencies only. Probably in the range of 50hz - 2000hz maybe. I would advise against tweeters in the dash corners. They cannot get low enough in frequency to mate well with the lower front doors. Best to probably use a wideband speaker for the dash corners.

 

[skates15]

It's the 4 front and 2 subs. Yes, I believe you are correct. The Alpine front door speakers are lower frequencies only. Probably in the range of 50hz - 2000hz maybe. I would advise against tweeters in the dash corners. They cannot get low enough in frequency to mate well with the lower front doors. Best to probably use a wideband speaker for the dash corners.

Ill be upgrading to wideband when I can afford it. I was hoping the audio frogs would have gone on sale over black Friday but no. For now I just installed Kenwood KFC-X3C because they were half off over black friday.

 

[platoon2063]

Ill be upgrading to wideband when I can afford it. I was hoping the audio frogs would have gone on sale over black Friday but no. For now I just installed Kenwood KFC-X3C because they were half off over black friday.

I responded a little late. I recently removed my AF gs25's and went with a traditional mid and tweeter. If you get some Christmas cash you want to burn let me know. The Audiofrog's are just sitting in a closet.

 

[skates15]

I responded a little late. I recently removed my AF gs25's and went with a traditional mid and tweeter. If you get some Christmas cash you want to burn let me know. The Audiofrog's are just sitting in a closet.

Awesome. 1 or 2 pairs?

 

[platoon2063]

Awesome. 1 or 2 pairs?

1 pair.
I had gs25's in the dash corners and Stereo Integrity TM65's in the lower doors. I just added tweeter pods with Focal tweets and Focal 3" mids in the corner dash. I don't use the center speaker nor the rears.

 

[skates15]

1 pair.
I had gs25's in the dash corners and Stereo Integrity TM65's in the lower doors. I just added tweeter pods with Focal tweets and Focal 3" mids in the corner dash. I don't use the center speaker nor the rears.

I just installed the other Kenwoods in the rear headliner. Sounds better, I checked one Kenwood vs stock and the kenwoods had better range but not fantastic. That said, I'm sure an amp and DSP would brighten things up.

When I was testing I was thinking that I'd want to try the wide bands as a next step ie the AF. I can't afford them right now but feel free to PM me in a few months if you still have them and ill take em off your hands.

 

[skates15]

Let's start with your questions in order:

1) The rear headliner speakers are 3-1/2" (Correction: 2-1/2"), but you can mount anything that size 3-1/2" or under with the aftermarket adapter kits and universal backstraps. Any 3.5" speaker should work depending on your preference.

2) I do not like any JBL speakers - the highs are too shrill IMHO. Infinity, Rockford Fosgate, or Pioneer are the way I go. Use 4-ohm speakers across the board or you'll have speakers that are drawing more power on their channels (the 3-ohms) and others that draw less (the 4-ohms) which could cause an imbalance in the "sound stage". You do not need bass blockers unless you really hate bass. I like to feel mine kick when that kick drum hits.

3) The stock bass sucks, but if you're good with it, and want to deepen it just a little (or if you notice it sounds "hollow"), pull the sub out and add a little fiber-fill or shredded-foam fill - make sure it's loosely packed - and put the sub back in. To improve the mids/highs, go with tweeters in the corners. Make sure you use high-pass crossovers for them. Personally I'd use 3-ways in the doors.

4) You can go with 2-way or 3-ways in the dash, front door, and rear doors. Personally, you get more dynamic sound if you use 3-ways. Below is how I set up mine: Note, I'd ditch the Infinity Reference REF-375TXs in the dash corners and go with the same Rockford's I've got in the Headliner. (See below image for notes)

Lastly, your setup looks fine overall. I just really hated the two different types of JBLs I tried because they were SHRILL - like piercing shrill IMHO. Both the Infinity and RF tweeters are awesome. I like the RF because if they're too loud, you can decrease the sensitivity by 2dB or 4dB just by moving your (+) input line to the next port over on the crossover. They also have on and off-axis attenuation (you'd want to use the off-axis in all cases unless you're going to mount them within 6" of your door speakers.)

View attachment 533031

Notes:
1) Get the Metra adapters for everything.
2) Use tweeters in the corners and headliner - you'll get better/crisper highs. The tweeters in the dash corners need to be aimed either a little forward, or straight up, at the windshield - this is because the audio sound stage in the vehicle is designed to reflect the sound off the windshield.
3) 3-ways in the rear doors will play full range - but unless Alpine changed the AMP processing, the front doors will only have a frequency range of 20 Hz - 5000 Hz (meaning, no treble in the 5 kHz to 20 kHz range. This is fine, but tweeters in the front doors will be under-utilized, regardless of whether you're using 2-way or 3-way speakers. I mainly went with the same 3-ways in the doors so everything matches. Tweeters in the dash corners will provide the highs missing from the front doors.
4) If you go with the infinity 2-way in the center dash, keep in mind that it has an external power capacitor that you should wire in to the (+) wire. Other speakers may or may not have this.
5) Your hand's free audio only comes from the center dash speaker. You'll need either a 3.5" 2-way or 3-way speaker there. Do NOT put a tweeter there.
6) The Rockfords and Infinity tweets have adapters for mounting in the dash corners. To mount in the headliner, you'll need to purchase a universal backstrap for each position, and then bend it to fit, mount the speaker/tweeter to it, and then mount it to the speaker mount in the headliner. If you purchase 3.5" speakers for the headliner, as long as Crutchfield says they'll fit, they will. I have also attached the wiring diagram for the Premium system - but this is for a 4th Gen. IDK if it is 100% accurate for your 2023.

Okay, I'm seeing the wisdom in what you've designed here and after a few days of the Kenwood Excelon KFC-X3C 2 ways in the dash and rear headliner, I think tweeters are the way to go rather than 2 ways. I'm sure a new amp/dsp will help a lot on the 2 ways, but I won't have that for a while so it sounds like tweeters are the way to go with the stock Alpine amp? Your suggestion to use the Rockford tweets still good to go?

 

[skates15]

1 pair.
I had gs25's in the dash corners and Stereo Integrity TM65's in the lower doors. I just added tweeter pods with Focal tweets and Focal 3" mids in the corner dash. I don't use the center speaker nor the rears.

I'm starting to see the need for separate tweets. I don't think I'll be happy with just 3" mids in the corner dash no matter how good they are. I would really like that separation a tweeter can bring. I wish there was a drop-in tweeter for the 5th gen. Crutchfield has options for the tweets but they entail customization, which I'm not familiar with, ie do I modify the dash corner cut out or the tweeter brace?

From Crutchfield when looking at tweeters for the dash corners. "You'll need a hole-saw drill bit for this installation, so you can flush-mount the tweeters into the brackets included with your order. These brackets only work with tweeters that can be flush-mounted."

 

[Black-Wolf]

Okay, I'm seeing the wisdom in what you've designed here and after a few days of the Kenwood Excelon KFC-X3C 2 ways in the dash and rear headliner, I think tweeters are the way to go rather than 2 ways. I'm sure a new amp/dsp will help a lot on the 2 ways, but I won't have that for a while so it sounds like tweeters are the way to go with the stock Alpine amp? Your suggestion to use the Rockford tweets still good to go?

Yeah - I like the RFs a lot! But the Infinitiy REFs are really good too. The problem I have run into, is that my center channel (an Infinity REF 3032cmx) actually sounds louder than the tweeters in the dash corners (Infinity REF 375s), so it tends to sound like my audio is coming from the center dash, rather than surrounded by all sides. The thought process I'm having: replace the 375s in the corners with 3032s and keep the center 3032. That should level out the audio across the front. The Rockfords in the headliner are actually quieter - but - they fill in nicely with any audio coming from the rear. I'm still playing with the 0/-2/-4db levels available - so more to report on those. Overall, the speakes I put in rock, but I'll be changing out the dash tweets for the 2-way 3032's soon I think. The amp does put out mid-range to the corners - but what I'm accomplishing by putting tweets there, is that it balances out the low bass/low-mids of the front door speakers. The only way to really be sure is play and see what you like. If you order from Crutchfield, and use the Metra adapters to connect to your system, and avoid cutting into the wiring on the new speakers, you can always return a set/pair of speakers if they don't work out. The 3032s do have a power capacitor that you have to wire inline with the (+) wire on the factory harness, but, TBH, I'm not sure if you absolutely need it. My thought process is, you probably do because it probably ensures minimum power is available even when pushing full volume. Note: After playing with the Subwoofer, I determined that wiring it @1-ohm in series was just TOO MUCH BASS. I went back to using both channels (7 & 10) - 1x per voice coil in the sub @ 2-ohms. This produces enough heavy bass, but doesn't overwhelm me with too much! This is my current setup - which, other than the center dash being the focus - rocks:

 

[platoon2063]

The primary issue with using small (3/4") tweeters in the dash corners is that they are not overly capable of playing frequencies lower than say 3khz. That means the speakers in the lower doors must play up to 3khz. Typical and less expensive speakers won't do this very well. yes, they can accomplish it but usually with a ton of distortion when the volume is turned up.
The reason for using widebands in a two way setup (lower door speakers and corner dash speakers) is that the widebands (usually 2.5"-3") can play much lower i.e. around 350hz. This is beneficial in keeping the majority of vocals in music up high on the dash rather than coming from down low in the doors. Widebands can also play a higher frequency range albeit not as high as a traditional tweeter.
I measured the Audiofrog widebands with good frequency response from 325hz to around 12.5 khz. in my 5th gen Ram 1500
BTW, male vocals usually start around 200hz and female vocals usually around 400hz. Personally I like hearing those come from up high rather than from low in the doors. Thus the reason I don't personally want my lower door speakers playing higher frequencies. To each their own.

 

[skates15]

The primary issue with using small (3/4") tweeters in the dash corners is that they are not overly capable of playing frequencies lower than say 3khz. That means the speakers in the lower doors must play up to 3khz. Typical and less expensive speakers won't do this very well. yes, they can accomplish it but usually with a ton of distortion when the volume is turned up.
The reason for using widebands in a two way setup (lower door speakers and corner dash speakers) is that the widebands (usually 2.5"-3") can play much lower i.e. around 350hz. This is beneficial in keeping the majority of vocals in music up high on the dash rather than coming from down low in the doors. Widebands can also play a higher frequency range albeit not as high as a traditional tweeter.
I measured the Audiofrog widebands with good frequency response from 325hz to around 12.5 khz. in my 5th gen Ram 1500
BTW, male vocals usually start around 200hz and female vocals usually around 400hz. Personally I like hearing those come from up high rather than from low in the doors. Thus the reason I don't personally want my lower door speakers playing higher frequencies. To each their own.

That's a great explanation. The center dash speaker seems to dominate the sound scape on the dash. It almost sounds like the corner dash 2 ways can't punch thru the center dash, so some songs are okay while others are not so good. I will disable the center dash to hear if the corner dash work better without it. I think the kenwoods 3.5" go down to 850hz and up to 23khz, so when I bought them I thought they may be close enough to a wideband and were cheaper than Audiofrog.

Would tweeters in the corner dash punch thru the center dash? Or better to go with wideband's in the corner and disable the center speaker. The front doors are the CDT 69S 2 way mids and the rear are CDT 69SEX coaxial full range.

 

[platoon2063]

The frequency response charts that manufacturers publish are NOT what you are going to see when you install the speakers in a car. Most likely not even close. They are measurements that are measured under perfect circumstances in a very controlled environment. Once you install a speaker in your car, everything changes. The Kenwoods for example claim 850hz to 23khz. Once installed they probably will give 1000hz to 12khz. Just a guess without measuring them.

The gs25's for example measure strongly from 300hz to 12khz in the Ram 1500. The Focal 3" mids I just installed measure from 100hz to 11khz. Focal claims 200hz to 9khz so, they actually outperform manufacturer specs which is awesome. The Focal tweeters I installed measure up to 15khz and then fall off the cliff. Focal claims 32khz.

I think in your situation i would probably leave the mids. You won't get upper highs but should get quality sound from approx. 12khz down when the mids mate with your CDT's in the doors. I think if you switch to tweeters then you'll end up with a gap between the tweeters and the door speakers. You'll possibly miss out on music info because the tweeters most likely can't go very low and the door speakers are unable to go high enough to reach the tweeters response.

Leave your center speaker disconnected for 3-4 days and see how you like it. My last 3 vehicles; the center was disconnected.

 

[skates15]

Once you install a speaker in your car, everything changes. The Kenwoods for example claim 850hz to 23khz. Once installed they probably will give 1000hz to 12khz. Just a guess without measuring them.

That sounds about right. I don't think they are going above 12khz.

 

[skates15]

I think in your situation i would probably leave the mids. You won't get upper highs but should get quality sound from approx. 12khz down when the mids mate with your CDT's in the doors.

I was also looking at the CDT Unity 8 wide bands which are on sale for the dash corners. Wouldn't they provide higher frequency than the Kenwoods?