Blackstone - used oil analysis

[HEMIMANN]

Beyond my paygrade! I've always read (multiple different posts on BITOG) that P+ and SuperCar are the same oils except different adpacks, and that doesn't sound like what David Stoiber is suggesting above. But it does appear he is saying SC has Esters, how much...

Maybe another email could help clear it up.

(Edit: or @Travis8352 I think you know these oils inside out?)

Both P+ and SC have esters - the difference is P+ has % of Group III, SC does not.

For our purposes (Hemi lubrication with short OCI of 5k miles), P+ is sufficient IF it has enough moly and IF it kills ticks, which is unknown at this point.
Then there is the issue of viscosity for wear. SC 0W-30 is a more viscous oil with 100C vis of 10.7 cSt, the others are around 10.2 or 10.3 cSt.

This matters for wear at operating temp in summer heat and tow loads.

 

[HEMIMANN]

ALL oils contain SOME ester - that's not the point.

The point is what % is ester?
Ester is used to carry additives in solution/suspension. More ester % is needed the more saturated pure the base oil is, moving from group II to group IV, sometimes 10% or so in a Group IV all PAO.

Ester can be added IN EXCESS of the minimum require to carry additives. This is done in more expensive oils for racing where operating temperature and load is very high. This is what Red Line is about.

Ester is not as good at low temperature or in shear (long term low wear) as PAO.

Ester oil is a specialty fix it oil, used in jet engines (they don't have shear elements like cylinders and piston rings), and run very hot.
Race engines don't last long so they don't care about long life from low wear.

 

[ramffml]

Both P+ and SC have esters - the difference is P+ has % of Group III, SC does not.

For our purposes (Hemi lubrication with short OCI of 5k miles), P+ is sufficient IF it has enough moly and IF it kills ticks, which is unknown at this point.
Then there is the issue of viscosity for wear. SC 0W-30 is a more viscous oil with 100C vis of 10.7 cSt, the others are around 10.2 or 10.3 cSt.

This matters for wear at operating temp in summer heat and tow loads.

Not trying to argue, just trying to get it straight in my soggy brain on a Friday afternoon.

So my understanding after further digging on bitog, P+ = 100% SC, except for the adpack. So P+ has no group 3 but is PAO. This is also evident in the PDS which has the similar cold crank values and pour point as super car, much lower degrees vs the group 3 PCMO.


Here is another thought: if what we identify as a "tick sound" goes away on RL and LG (as per this forum, though higher success rate with RL), would that not mean that this is due to the moly content and not the ester content. LG is pure moly, just a lower dose vs a full sump of RL in the 400+ PPM range (or am I wrong there).

 

[ramffml]

Another post from David saying same thing:

So our PCMO oil has AN, Ester and Moly just like the premium plus. The premium plus is PAO with a Star VII. Both of those are most beneficial when you are in a colder climate. If you are in North Carolina you would honestly be throwing money away by using the premium plus series over the PCMO. And as always the BITOG15 discount code is important to remember for 15% off.

Only reason I'm mentioning it is because I don't think P+ gets a fair shake vs SuperCar which gets all the love. P+ is a great choice for those who want to stick with an oil that meets or exceeds "MS 6395" for our 5.7s while still having incredible base stock and amazing cold start performance with no shear down for towing.

 

[Burla]

edit - HPL doesn't have a high ester oil - they're all PAO (Group IV), only ester for additive carrier oil.

do you know the difference

Not trying to argue, just trying to get it straight in my soggy brain on a Friday afternoon.

So my understanding after further digging on bitog, P+ = 100% SC, except for the adpack. So P+ has no group 3 but is PAO. This is also evident in the PDS which has the similar cold crank values and pour point as super car, much lower degrees vs the group 3 PCMO.


Here is another thought: if what we identify as a "tick sound" goes away on RL and LG (as per this forum, though higher success rate with RL), would that not mean that this is due to the moly content and not the ester content. LG is pure moly, just a lower dose vs a full sump of RL in the 400+ PPM range (or am I wrong there).

LG is an ester and moly treat and through in some phos and other goodies. The issue with my idea on moly is super high moly Toyota oil is not good at addressing tick at all. What we don't know is the synergy that seams to be in these two products that separate them from most others. Hemi tick is much more then a sound, the sound is just the canary in the coalmine which is letting you know your cam is about to die. When they install a cam, they do pack with with moly, so I am guessing there is a reason for this, after all they don't pack it with other aw additives, so the industry must know something?

We know what seams to work, but we haven't pulled apart the minutia. If we are to find real answers, it would take someone like Corey to try many things and isolate additives. Since you seam to have similar luck with all products, you have the will but not the truck for results.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Not trying to argue, just trying to get it straight in my soggy brain on a Friday afternoon.

So my understanding after further digging on bitog, P+ = 100% SC, except for the adpack. So P+ has no group 3 but is PAO. This is also evident in the PDS which has the similar cold crank values and pour point as super car, much lower degrees vs the group 3 PCMO.


Here is another thought: if what we identify as a "tick sound" goes away on RL and LG (as per this forum, though higher success rate with RL), would that not mean that this is due to the moly content and not the ester content. LG is pure moly, just a lower dose vs a full sump of RL in the 400+ PPM range (or am I wrong there).

lol no.

P+ = SC - Group III base oil

SC has no Group III base oil. It has some combination of PAO (Group IV), ester, and AN (which sort of acts like an ester) base oil. P+ has Group III base oil. The higher up the performance ladder you go, the more premium the ingredients are.

Group III is not a premium base oil, GTL (PUP) is a super-saturated Group III, kind of a Group III+. But Group III is good enough for 5k OCI's on non-drama-queen engines. It's what I use in wife's Mazda.

The difference between Group III and IV besides price is purity of molecule, Group IV resists oxidation, heat, wear, and low temp pumping better than Group III.

I don't know anything about the add pack except for the vii, which is all star polymer for both of them. Travis knows so much he mentioned there is a latest star polymer that is better than the original oil company consortium (Infineum) star polymer, I don't know which HPL uses, they're both better than traditional coil vii polymers for resisting shear down.

 

[ramffml]

lol no.

P+ = SC - Group III base oil

SC has no Group III base oil. It has some combination of PAO (Group IV), ester, and AN (which sort of acts like an ester) base oil. P+ has Group III base oil. The higher up the performance ladder you go, the more premium the ingredients are.

You should know that you're directly contradicting David himself, who with multiple posts says P+ has no Group 3 and is instead PAO.

I'm also basing my opinion heavily on the PDS which shows cold crank and pour point values which are not typically found in G3 oils, but are almost identical to those in SuperCar. If you care to compare them, you'll see how similar P+ looks on the specs vs SC.

Add to that, the fact that David says "you're wasting your money on P+ vs standard PCMO if you don't have very cold winters", well, add it all up.

Think of it this way:
PCMO < Premium < Premium +
Euro < Super Car

P+ and SC are BOTH at the top of their respective lines. They are both the premium entries, just using the API/Euro ad packs.

I'm not going to argue about it further because I understand how you got to your position, but I believe it to be wrong until further comments from HPL if they ever shed light on this.

 

[JHoward]

I'm about a thousand miles(month or so)out from doing an oci. (Red Line 5w/30 @54,000 miles).

I'll post the results from Blackstone Labs for viewing ...it'll be an interesting report, I think and hope.

 

[Burla]

You should know that you're directly contradicting David himself, who with multiple posts says P+ has no Group 3 and is instead PAO.

I'm also basing my opinion heavily on the PDS which shows cold crank and pour point values which are not typically found in G3 oils, but are almost identical to those in SuperCar. If you care to compare them, you'll see how similar P+ looks on the specs vs SC.

Add to that, the fact that David says "you're wasting your money on P+ vs standard PCMO if you don't have very cold winters", well, add it all up.

Think of it this way:
PCMO < Premium < Premium +
Euro < Super Car

P+ and SC are BOTH at the top of their respective lines. They are both the premium entries, just using the API/Euro ad packs.

I'm not going to argue about it further because I understand how you got to your position, but I believe it to be wrong until further comments from HPL if they ever shed light on this.

Does HPL SC have esters? They mostly use AN instead of Easters in their other formulas?

 

[ramffml]

Does HPL SC have esters? They mostly use AN instead of Easters in their other formulas?

Yes it does, according to this post from David who was answering a question comparing P+ vs SC. I've never seen mention about ratios or quantities, just that it contains it.

The premium plus passenger car oil uses an ad pack that is based on D1G2. It also uses the same PAO/AN/Ester base stocks.

The Supercar oil is made with a 502.00 ad pack as a starting point.

They will have comparable moly in the 750ppm area.

In this case, the additive package used in the Supercar oil lineup meets API SL.

 

[HEMIMANN]

You should know that you're directly contradicting David himself, who with multiple posts says P+ has no Group 3 and is instead PAO.

I'm also basing my opinion heavily on the PDS which shows cold crank and pour point values which are not typically found in G3 oils, but are almost identical to those in SuperCar. If you care to compare them, you'll see how similar P+ looks on the specs vs SC.

Add to that, the fact that David says "you're wasting your money on P+ vs standard PCMO if you don't have very cold winters", well, add it all up.

Think of it this way:
PCMO < Premium < Premium +
Euro < Super Car

P+ and SC are BOTH at the top of their respective lines. They are both the premium entries, just using the API/Euro ad packs.

I'm not going to argue about it further because I understand how you got to your position, but I believe it to be wrong until further comments from HPL if they ever shed light on this.

I quoted his email to me.

Read it again.

 

[ramffml]

I quoted his email to me.

Read it again.

We're going in circles here. You said P+ contains group3, both the Davids say it uses the same PAO/AN/Ester base stocks as SuperCar.

Doesn't really matter to me, as I'm using no-vii right now and plan to switch to the basic PCMO anyway.

It's all good stuff and I appreciate the discussion and learning.

 

[TunaFresh]

"So our PCMO oil has AN, Ester and Moly just like the premium plus. The premium plus is PAO with a Star VII. Both of those are most beneficial when you are in a colder climate. If you are in North Carolina you would honestly be throwing money away by using the premium plus series over the PCMO. And as always the BITOG15 discount code is important to remember for 15% off.

David"

 

[JHoward]

We're going in circles here. You said P+ contains group3, both the Davids say it uses the same PAO/AN/Ester base stocks as SuperCar.

Doesn't really matter to me, as I'm using no-vii right now and plan to switch to the basic PCMO anyway.

It's all good stuff and I appreciate the discussion and learning.

Yep, absolutely.

But, it's all over my head ... and I'm further from from knowing all of the oil stuff than you, so I'll go sit back in the corner and ... just read.

 

[clay282]

I have been on BITOG for over 20+ years and have observed that trends ebb and flow of what the favorite juice is. I do not buy into the notion that they will promote sponsors over other oil, just that the newness of a sponsor coming on increases the visibility and discussion of said sponsor and their product. A couple of years ago, Pennzoil was the big sponsor and the herd shifted towards Pennzoil Ultra and then backed off to something else. HPL and now Valvoline Restore and Protect are what the cool kids are talking about.

One thing I have notice is a shift in moderation. 4-5 years ago, it was not heavily moderated. Then of late, quite a few seasoned members have been brought on staff as mods and few of them have gotten a god complex and will moderate with a heavy hand if you are not tracking to what they think it should track to and sway perception.

Just like this forum and most others, BITOG has a small core group of frequent posters of maybe 20-30 members that do the lionshare of daily posting. Good or bad, they set the tone and are very cliquish to give a perception of how the overall trends when it really is never in a state on consensus. It is not a place to join and not be somewhat versed in Tribology science already.

TRUTH! I had a 4th Gen I sold and was gone for a couple years and got this 5th gen and came back. The vibe is high school clique. The vibe is also not helpful in some things. I thought I would check this Blackstone thread to see results. I'm scrolling and just seeing grown men stomp their feet over oil. THREAD - Blackstone use oil analysis. Maybe we could see some ANALYSIS instead of trying to force others to believe in YOUR favorite oil. Post your results and let them speak for themselves.

 

[JHoward]

TRUTH! I had a 4th Gen I sold and was gone for a couple years and got this 5th gen and came back. The vibe is high school clique. The vibe is also not helpful in some things. I thought I would check this Blackstone thread to see results. I'm scrolling and just seeing grown men stomp their feet over oil. THREAD - Blackstone use oil analysis. Maybe we could see some ANALYSIS instead of trying to force others to believe in YOUR favorite oil. Post your results and let them speak for themselves.

Well, dang ... ok, lol.

 

[ramffml]

TRUTH! I had a 4th Gen I sold and was gone for a couple years and got this 5th gen and came back. The vibe is high school clique. The vibe is also not helpful in some things. I thought I would check this Blackstone thread to see results. I'm scrolling and just seeing grown men stomp their feet over oil. THREAD - Blackstone use oil analysis. Maybe we could see some ANALYSIS instead of trying to force others to believe in YOUR favorite oil. Post your results and let them speak for themselves.

The discussion in this thread has all been technical, is the oil X or Y. Exactly the type of analysis you asked for. Nobody is forcing anyone to change their opinion on preferred oil choice.

Besides, lets be honest, if you're partaking in this thread and loving the analysis then admit your just as ... special, as us lowly foot stompers, eh?

 

[ramffml]

Yep, absolutely.

But, it's all over my head ... and I'm further from from knowing all of the oil stuff than you, so I'll go sit back in the corner and ... just read.

I'm an amateur as well, never claimed otherwise.

But I'll take the hints and move on for a while. I'd hate to be upgraded from "foot stomper" to "feather ruffler"

 

[dieseldave]

It depends on the oil you're using. Oils with high Ester content (Redline, HPL) tend to show high amounts of copper in UOA's and the theory there is that the Ester is leaching the copper from the coolers in our trucks and other parts of the engine that contain copper. It was explained this way on a post from user RDY4WAR on BITOG



However, copper should trend down over time after the first time you use a high Ester content oil.

If you're not using RL/HPL etc, and you see high copper, most likely that's a sign of wear.

I am using pup ultra 5w20 with 15 oz of lubeguard. 32000 miles . My Blackstone report has a copper reading of 72. Should I be concerned

 

[ramffml]

I am using pup ultra 5w20 with 15 oz of lubeguard. 32000 miles . My Blackstone report has a copper reading of 72. Should I be concerned

Your engine is quite young yet, do you have any other UOA's and how many miles was that OCI? Personally I'd run 5w-30, but even with 5w-20 ideally that number trends down over the next few UOAs. One UOA with a young engine is hard to draw conclusions, the trends over time are quite a bit more useful.

As a point of reference, my truck was at 62 PPM with that mileage, but my oil was different, my interval length was different, my driving style is different and my truck usage is different, so again hard to draw conclusions. By the next UOA it had dropped nicely into a more healthy number.