Blackstone - used oil analysis

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fijicorey

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@fijicorey, how much mileage on your Ram?

You could also cut a filter open and see what is inside.

Wish you the best.
93k miles, about 3800 hours with about 500 being idle. I did cut open the filter and it was clean.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I think the plan is to pull a sample sometime between 1-2k miles and see what it says. I may also just change the oil to something else and then re sample again at the same interval. At the rate I drive it, that should take about 8 months
 

TC

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I found some fine metallics on magnetic drain plug, a couple flakes in the FE oil filter but UOA looks great...go figure. This UOA is first run of HPL PCMO 5W30 in a well seasoned motor. Two previous runs were on Valvoline RP 5W30. Filled with HPL PCMO again, going to go 7500 on next OCI. Any reason for concern on small amount of ferrous material on drain plug? Don't like seeing metal in the oil...I wiped the metallic gel off on the paper towel, but the magnet is strong enough that removing the fines was difficult due to magnetic bond. There is zero tick on this engine and it runs excellent.
161k mile oil plug.jpg
Blackstone 2016 RAM UOA.pdf.gif
 

Burla

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I like the paper on that oil and it's cheaper then SC that we spend so much time praising. Why not save 30 bucks and most likely group 3 is having incredible low wear. I wouldnt worry metal on drain plug but I would open filter to make sure. If I was to hand build a formula I kid you not that would be it.
 

HEMIMANN

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Shows very low wear metals, despite the very thin 30 weight viscosity: nearly a 20 weight viscosity.

The difference here is that HPL PCMO 5W-30 is chock full of moly additive, and also has some AN additive (acts like an ester), according to HPL. Is that all that's needed to save lifter rollers and cams?

I mean, guys are using PUP + LubeGard, haven't heard of wiped lifters and cams with this combo? And PUP is a Group III+ (GTL) base oil, so.....???
 

Burla

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The only downside is that visc, not really why HPL does that in their oils in general when they really go overboard to perfection on additives, they stay on thin side. despite redline not as good as that on the sheet, that hths and cSt on 5w30 redline makes it stand out. Too bad we don't have it all in one oil, you need to chose, redline perfect on visc or HPL perfect on additives. Redline in my uoa's full 3 points higher.
 

HEMIMANN

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The only downside is that visc, not really why HPL does that in their oils in general when they really go overboard to perfection on additives, they stay on thin side. despite redline not as good as that on the sheet, that hths and cSt on 5w30 redline makes it stand out. Too bad we don't have it all in one oil, you need to chose, redline perfect on visc or HPL perfect on additives. Redline in my uoa's full 3 points higher.

fyi - back when I did the spec compares between RL & HPL, I noted the only HPL oil that hung with RL high up in viscosity grade was their SuperCar 0W-30, for unknown reason. This oil's viscosity is around 12 cSt @ 100C just like Red Line. All the rest of their 30 grade vis are in the low 10's or high 9's.

Not good enough for me, pulling trailers in 90 degrees.
 

Motoman501

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Not good enough for me, pulling trailers in 90 degrees.

That's why I'm going to try SC 0W-30 at my next oil change. Although my BS report showed the PCMO 5W-30 sheared very little, a little more protection will be comforting when towing my 5'ver in 95-100 degree heat......
 

Yardbird

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I found some fine metallics on magnetic drain plug, a couple flakes in the FE oil filter but UOA looks great...go figure. This UOA is first run of HPL PCMO 5W30 in a well seasoned motor. Two previous runs were on Valvoline RP 5W30. Filled with HPL PCMO again, going to go 7500 on next OCI. Any reason for concern on small amount of ferrous material on drain plug? Don't like seeing metal in the oil...I wiped the metallic gel off on the paper towel, but the magnet is strong enough that removing the fines was difficult due to magnetic bond. There is zero tick on this engine and it runs excellent.
View attachment 573761
View attachment 573765


According to Lake Speed, if metal particles are big enough to see, they will not be picked up by the oil analysis equipment. The sump could be full of seeable metal, but the report would show no abnormal metals if none are really fine particles.
 

Curmudgeon

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According to Lake Speed, if metal particles are big enough to see, they will not be picked up by the oil analysis equipment. The sump could be full of seeable metal, but the report would show no abnormal metals if none are really fine particles.

I wonder what the odds are that a UOA would show low or zero (or normal) wear metals but metal would be visible, on the magnet, in the filter, etc?
So I'm wondering what the context was for Lake Speed to make that statement?
Sounds more like he might have been addressing testing method(s).

I might expect visible metal to be the case with a new engine and not show on UOA, but there comes a point that metal should be both visible and present at UOA.
I think. :shrug:
 
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Yardbird

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AI Overview

Most standard oil analysis tests cannot detect large metal particles because
they are designed to measure only very small, sub-visible wear metals. The primary techniques, such as Inductively Coupled Plasma (ICP) or Rotating Disc Electrode (RDE) spectroscopy, have specific particle size limitations that larger debris exceeds.
Here is a breakdown of the reasons why standard oil analysis tests miss large metal particles:
1. Spectroscopic limitations
The elemental analysis performed via spectrometry, a core part of oil analysis, functions by vaporizing the oil sample to identify the atomic elements present.
  • Insufficient energy: Large metal particles cannot be fully vaporized in the short time they are exposed to the spectrometer's plasma, meaning the test only registers a portion of the particle's material.
  • Particle size limits:
    • ICP spectrometers can typically only measure particles up to 3 to 5 microns in size.
    • RDE spectrometers have a slightly higher limit of around 8 to 10 microns.
  • Missed critical wear: Severe wear events like fatigue, adhesion, and abrasion generate particles much larger than these limits, which the spectrometer completely misses.
2. Sample preparation issues
For spectroscopic analysis, the oil sample must be diluted and converted into a fine aerosol mist.
  • Settling: Diluting the oil significantly lowers its viscosity, causing larger, heavier particles to settle to the bottom of the sample tube. This means the large particles are never drawn up into the instrument for analysis.
  • Tubing blockages: The transport systems (tubing) that move the sample to the instrument are very narrow. Large particles can block this tubing entirely, preventing the sample from being analyzed at all.
3. Focus on early, microscopic wear
Standard elemental analysis is highly effective at tracking the gradual, microscopic wear that occurs during normal operation.
  • It is designed to detect a gradual, non-catastrophic increase in the concentration of fine wear metals.
  • The appearance of large particles, however, often signifies a more severe or imminent failure, which requires different, more intensive tests to detect.
Alternative tests for large particles
To detect larger metal particles and catch potentially catastrophic failures, specialized tests are required:
  • Analytical Ferrography: This process involves a magnetic separation to extract and arrange ferrous (magnetic) particles on a slide, which are then analyzed under a microscope. The analyst examines the size, shape, and composition of the particles to determine the source and severity of the wear.
  • Particle Quantifier (PQ) Index: This test measures the total amount of ferrous material in an oil sample, regardless of particle size, by exposing it to a magnetic field. A high PQ reading combined with low spectroscopic readings is a clear indication that large ferrous particles are present.
  • Microscopic Filter Analysis: A technician can cut open the oil filter and visually inspect the debris trapped in the filter media. This provides a direct look at the large metal shavings and other contaminants that the filter successfully removed.
  • Direct-Reading Ferrography: This technique also magnetically separates ferrous particles and measures the quantity of large and small particles. A high ratio of large to small particles indicates severe, active wear.
 

ramffml

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I wonder what the odds are that a UOA would show low or zero (or normal) wear metals but metal would be visible, on the magnet, in the filter, etc?

It's possible, one of the bitog mods runs a 3.6 pentastar that chewed a lifter and no warnings in the UOAs. He did extremely long OCI's, like 23k+ miles and just swapping out the filter. Last time he did that he found chunks in the filter so ended up putting in new lifters, managed to save the cam in time.
 

HEMIMANN

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Mobil Industrial Lube Engineers always ran UOA and in-service oil samples through progressive filter patches to look for visible contaminants, in addition to spectral lab analysis.

Jus' saying. And that was 40 years ago. :oops:
 

TC

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Lots of great information. how much work is involved in pulling intake manifold to inspect things, or is it even worth it w/o hearing ticking noise or having codes which I do not. I have seen small flakes of metal in the oil filter, only half dozen maybe at most last two oil changes. Drain plug similar both times with small bits of metal.
 

Yardbird

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Without knowing exactly where the metal came from, knowing where to start looking is a long shot or a big tear down. But, if you had metal the last three oil changes, something is wrong.

I wonder if there is somewhere you could send it to see exact what metal it is? A magnet could at least tell if it's bearings or steel.
 

TC

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I may have piston slap on rare occasions, when it's cold after cranking and idle down, I hear a slight knocking sound, very faint, with a cadence somewhere between 150-160 "knocks" per minute. It is very faint and more prominent when standing outside beside drivers door, sound coming from lower end of motor. Dont notice it at operating temps.
 

Travis8352

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Taken from bobs... 22.3k mile OCI on HPL SC 0w-30

Viscosity ended at 13.9 cst and an OG fram ultra was used. 1 quart makeup oil added at 10k miles. I believe it was a 16-17 month OCI.
 

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Burla

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6 copper 10 iron 3 aluminum and nada, beautiful report on the mos2 pup combo there. Perfect for a hemi, and the only year for the 6 speed, that truck is a keeper. You got 3.92's too? Maybe best truck made imo.
 
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