Cummins $1.6 billion dollar fine!!!

[Timsdually]

The old saying..."Never say 'never'"

 

[Sherman Bird]

I wonder what they'd do if a truck comes in for this "recall" fully deleted? If/when my emissions equipment goes that's the route I'll take. The dealer has never cared in the past since my trucks have all been out of warranty and we don't have emissions testing in Alabama. As an aside, I won't be getting this recall done anyhow.

I saw that all the time back in my GM Tech days. The first year of the LS powered Trans Ams were hitting the market. (1998)

I was a transmission specialist and had to run software diags as part of my initial assessment of the problem. The Factory program file codes would frequently be replaced by aftermarket tuners.

Although technically a reason to disqualify the vehicle from ALL warranty because of this infraction, the orders came from on high (ivory towers!) to retro the ECM back to factory defaults and fix the problem. I left GM at the end of 1999 and went back to FORD, so I wasn't around to witness any backlash to that scenario.

 

[nlambert182]

In my specific scenario, I don't own any vehicles in warranty. I assumed that they wouldn't be able to reprogram my ECM anyhow since it would not have the stock programming on it but I don't want to risk them trying to overwrite the tune on it.

 

[Sherman Bird]

In my specific scenario, I don't own any vehicles in warranty. I assumed that they wouldn't be able to reprogram my ECM anyhow since it would not have the stock programming on it but I don't want to risk them trying to overwrite the tune on it.

Overwriting an aftermarket tune is as easy as replacing a defective factory tune with a new factory program.
That's all I had to do on those Trans Ams.

 

[18CrewDually]

Overwriting an aftermarket tune is as easy as replacing a defective factory tune with a new factory program.
That's all I had to do on those Trans Ams.

Yup and once they overwrite it, it is gone! It is cleared and written over with the new. So if a dealer does the update, you have no way of retrieving the tune. It leaves you begging the tuner to get another copy and that usually involves exchange of monies.

 

[mtnrider]

Yup and once they overwrite it, it is gone! It is cleared and written over with the new. So if a dealer does the update, you have no way of retrieving the tune. It leaves you begging the tuner to get another copy and that usually involves exchange of monies.

Um, I have access to my current tune (and dozens of others from my tuner) at my fingertips. The dealer can over write it, I can re-load my tune a few minutes later in their parking lot and drive away, it's as easy as that.

 

[18CrewDually]

Um, I have access to my current tune (and dozens of others from my tuner) at my fingertips. The dealer can over write it, I can re-load my tune a few minutes later in their parking lot and drive away, it's as easy as that.

I'm referring to VIN locked tunes. For example some tuning hardware "Marries" to the VIN stored in the PCM. If you have an agreement with your tuner or your own laptop with software you may like in your case.

 

[mtnrider]

I'm referring to VIN locked tunes. For example some tuning hardware "Marries" to the VIN stored in the PCM. If you have an agreement with your tuner or your own laptop with software you may like in your case.

My tunes are VIN locked....

You clearly don't understand how modern tuners work. I can reload them from my phone all day long.

.

 

[18CrewDually]

My tunes are VIN locked....

You clearly don't understand how modern tuners work. I can reload them from my phone all day long.

.

HP?

 

[mtnrider]

HP?

HP tuner are a little dated (but they are working on catching up)

I use EzLynk, but EFI live can do the same thing, it loads from a device vs the phone though. Those are the 2 most popular tuning platforms (and have been for several years).

 

[HEMIMANN]

Man, you guys passed me 20 years back when they promoted me from engineer to management.

I was pretty proud of myself figuring out how to download a pre-can tunes myself, though.

 

[18CrewDually]

HP tuner are a little dated (but they are working on catching up)

I use EzLynk, but EFI live can do the same thing, it loads from a device vs the phone though. Those are the 2 most popular tuning platforms (and have been for several years).

My tunes are VIN locked....

You clearly don't understand how modern tuners work. I can reload them from my phone all day long.

.

In fairness, my comment that I quoted was in regards to Trans Ams which was last produced in 2002. So yes, it would be older tuning abilities.

 

[Bighorn18]

Got the 67A recall letter couple days ago. Here's my concern. Cummins 1.6 billion fine alleges Cummins installed "types of devices to cheat federal environmental laws". Defeat devices are designed to "bypass, defeat, or render inoperative emissions controls such as emission sensors and onboard computers. So what does the 67A emission recall have to do with the alleged types of installation of defeat devices? It may just be the timing of the 67A emissions "PCM" update that people are thinking it's related to the Cummins 1.6 billion fine. If not, then the next question is what is coming later as far as mandates to removing said defeat devices? I saw on YouTube video of the guy that test drove and pulling his tractor on trailer after he had the 67A emissions recall done which only updated the PCM software and he had no change in truck performance of any kind. California residence must comply or will not be able to re-register their trucks. It's the only state so far I am aware of that has implemented such mandate. I suspect in order keep any vehicle warrantee good, one must comply with the 67A recall for emission update in order to show proper maintenance. My warrantee is over anyways so right now I'm on the fence about doing it, especially if there seems to be no change or effect on performance, until I hear more on how it affects others and what other mandates and or recalls may be coming. Besides, DEQ testing for registration in my town is exempt for all Heavy Duty Diesel trucks or GVWR > 8,500, so there is really no need for me to comply with the 67A emissions recall.

 

[HEMIMANN]

It's the software.

 

[crash68]

So what does the 67A emission recall have to do with the alleged types of installation of defeat devices? It may just be the timing of the 67A emissions "PCM" update that people are thinking it's related to the Cummins 1.6 billion fine.

I'm sure they word it as "defeat devices" is make it sound more dramatic. As mentioned it's not a physical part it's software that running the engine/emissions.

 

[Bighorn18]

Here some more info I found from another forums posting( cummins-67a-recall.121021 ) that makes some sense around the 1.6 billion fine and perhaps to the 67A emissions recall.

Speculation, but some possible industry insight about the 'defeat device' relating to the Cummins EPA settlement.

"The term "defeat device" has evolved into a blanket categorization including software and hardware that illegally increases vehicle emissions for the sake of performance, efficiency, or both. It's become common parlance in the automotive industry, especially as companies including Volkswagen have been caught using said devices to skirt emissions regulations on a massive scale. From there, it spread to the vehicle aftermarket and, particularly, the diesel tuning industry.

That's where Kory Willis, founder of PPEI Tuning, fits into this. I spoke with Willis for a story I wrote in 2020 about the Environmental Protection Agency's war on modified diesel trucks, which he's especially qualified to talk about. That's because the EPA hammered him and his company with $3.1 million in criminal fines as well as civil penalties for violating the Clean Air Act. He then signed a consent decree which allows PPEI to continue selling performance upgrades so long as they're approved by the California Air Resources Board, or CARB.

Willis went on The Truck Show Podcast recently to talk about Cummins' massive settlement, and he put it plainly: "I don't think Cummins did anything wrong." He emphasized his personal experience with the 6.7-liter engine in question, saying he deals with them "20+ times a day" as PPEI provides owners with tuning adjustments and the like.

"What strikes me more than anything is, if there was a defeat device—or unless it was from day one, which I don't think is necessarily possible because I've passed CARB emissions with this stuff as well—I haven't seen any change," Willis explained. "That's where I'm very curious of what they're calling a defeat device."

The most plausible explanation is a software change within the engine's computer system, though exactly what alteration allegedly violated the Clean Air Act remains unclear. Willis mentioned this during his interview, as well as a particulate matter sensor that may have been absent or changed without approval. It's impossible to say for sure since Cummins and the DOJ have yet to disclose it officially.

While genuine insight is hard to come by in this case, there is at least one more source with relevant information to help make sense of Cummins' emissions testing debacle. That's Peter Treydte, the compliance center manager at SEMA Garage who works to help OEMs and aftermarket suppliers alike meet federal regulations. In the same episode of The Truck Show Podcast, Treydte shared some knowledge about the compliance process and what tools manufacturers use to stay within the feds' set parameters.

A crucial component is a vehicle's auxiliary emissions control device, more commonly referred to as an AECD in the manufacturing and testing realm. Both software and hardware can be classified as an AECD, and as Treydte puts it, they exist "to protect components under adverse conditions." He used the example of a device that alters the air-fuel ratio of an engine when under heavy load to prevent the catalytic converter from melting down.

"In this case, it appears that there were some AECDs that were being employed that were undisclosed to CARB and EPA," Treydte said. "So the way I interpret that is the Cummins engineers were doing their job. They were putting the effort in to ensure that the DPF and the catalysts were all protected under certain operating conditions, but in doing so, either the paperwork didn't get done or somehow or another, it wasn't disclosed to the agencies, and as a result, they're now suffering the consequences of that."

Again, this is speculation, but it's informed by Treydte's deep knowledge of the automotive emissions test cycles and regulations. It's very well possible that such a seemingly minor change would go unnoticed by tuners like Willis, especially if the AECD was a form of software that operates deep within the truck's engine control unit. These are complex systems."

Original Author CALEB JACOBS: inside-the-epas-messy-war-on-dirty-diesel-trucks

 

[jejb]

It may just be the timing of the 67A emissions "PCM" update that people are thinking it's related to the Cummins 1.6 billion fine.

Could be. It does seem a bit premature, since the final settlement has not been approved yet. And the recall is only for 13-18's, while the 20-23's are mentioned in the press releases also. Time will tell, I guess.

 

[Bighorn18]

I've seen youtube video of guy that had it done and then test drove with pulling trailer with 9,000lb tracker up grades for 150 miles and found no change in power or milage. Some think it's just a software update, but the recall states it's an "upgraded calibration".

 

[HEMIMANN]

I've seen youtube video of guy that had it done and then test drove with pulling trailer with 9,000lb tracker up grades for 150 miles and found no change in power or milage. Some think it's just a software update, but the recall states it's an "upgraded calibration".

If the recal r*e*t*a*r*d*s fuel injection timing to reduce NOx into the SCR exhaust reactor, your fuel mileage will suffer.

 

[Bighorn18]

If the recal r*e*t*a*r*d*s fuel injection timing to reduce NOx into the SCR exhaust reactor, your fuel mileage will suffer.

That's just it, no one will tell you exactly what the upgraded calibration consist of doing.