Howy - Looking for 2025 Ramcharger Info, Stopping by...

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StMapleBury

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I read everthing Ram produced so far. It is NOT like a Prius. A Prius has a motor generator and gas engine joined via a planetary gear set. I owned one. Great car IF you understand the limitations.

The Ram Charger looks like it takes the planned fully electric truck and marries a generator to it. Drive is fully electric.

Benefits I see is running a flat torque electric drive. Imagine having full torque at launch even at creeper speeds. Now add a generator that is only ever running at near best performance.

There is an outfit in Canada building and testing vocational trucks (think lumber and raw materials hauler in the middle of no where). Theses guys scaled up to big tractor rigs. Same concept as the Ram Charger but bigger, way bigger. Look up Edison Motors: https://www.edisonmotors.ca In their test pull they out pulled the Tesla tractor. Take everything with a grain of salt, but a fun watch regardless. These guys suggest a 25% gain in fuel economy. We will see.
 

NCRaineman

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GM tried something similar with the Volt a decade or so ago. Note that vehicle is not in production anymore.

What you end up with is either a short-ranged EV that's saddled with the weight of having to carry around a gas engine and all the associated bits, cooling system, fuel system, etc. Or it's a gas truck that's saddled with the extra weight of batteries and electric motors.

Weight is your enemy when it comes to performance and economy. The less of it you have the better off you are. This thing has TWO powertrains. Sure they've saved a little by not having a traditional transmission or driveshaft and letting the gas engine be purely a generator, but guarantee you it will be significantly heavier than a gas only truck.

In either case it is trying to be two things and, ultimately, will succeed at being neither. Let's face it, current battery tech just isn't up to the task of moving weight over long distances at high speeds.
 

bballr4567

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In either case it is trying to be two things and, ultimately, will succeed at being neither. Let's face it, current battery tech just isn't up to the task of moving weight over long distances at high speeds.
Why do you think the battery tech won't be up to it? This has a generator that will recharge the batteries up to 3 times the original full charge on a tank of gas. I don't understand why you think it won't work. It has power and range. Most half ton trucks have to stop every 300 miles when towing anyways and the RamCharger will be in that exact same ballpark.

I truly think you need to research a little bit more into how Ram has engineered the software to help with towing as well. TFL Truck did a great interview with the lead engineer that revealed quite a bit of how they specifically designed this truck to be great a towing.



Again, in short, the ICE will never drive the wheels. Ever. It's not even physically possible.
 
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bluebeast1562

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Oh hell no, do not insult the OG Ramcharger with some POS EV pickup. I owned and loved a 1984 Ramcharger, AKA Bluebeast, this upcoming monstrosity is nothing close to the Ramcharger just like the new "Bronco" is nothing like the OG Bronco.
 

crash68

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According to a Ram official the Rancharger setup will be something akin to a Toyota Prius. Though electric motors can be powerful the gas engine portion is reported to be a V6.

It may not be an optimal package for towing 5000 pound boats, much less the far heavier rvs.

For towing, with the imminent demise of the hemi, you might be stuck with the Hurricane V6 and twin turbos.
Not even the Hurricane HO could keep up with the torque curve of the Ramcharger electric motors. EV motors have almost full torque from 0 rpms where as the Hurricane needs to go north of 3K rpms to get to it's torque peek and even then will still be over 100 ft/lbs shy of the Ramcharger.
Couple the gobs torque at any rpm, regenerative braking and the range only limited by the gas generator fuel tank will make the Ramcharger an immensely better truck for towing than anything other than the Cummins.
 

Docwagon1776

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I was addressing the towing a 5000 Lb boat on 400 mi round trip. In those type of "truck" scenarios the drivetrain will be under considerably more load. In the ICE drive train energy conversion happens twice from liquid fuel to mechanical rotation. The hybrid drive train adds 2 more conversions. It will be interesting to see how these vehicles perform in those scenarios.

I bet you a shiny nickel that traditional ICE has more energy loss.

Zero idling needed, regenerative braking, and efficiencies from engineering for a specific rpm vs the need for a wide powerband, and no traditional transmission.
 

chri5k

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I bet you a shiny nickel that traditional ICE has more energy loss.

Zero idling needed, regenerative braking, and efficiencies from engineering for a specific rpm vs the need for a wide powerband, and no traditional transmission.
Idk. An ICE engine at 40% efficiency driving a generator at 90% efficiency driving an electric motor at 80% efficiency. Seems like a number of losses between the liquid fuel and the rubber meeting the road.
 

Dodge 1500 4X4

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I was addressing the towing a 5000 Lb boat on 400 mi round trip. In those type of "truck" scenarios the drivetrain will be under considerably more load. In the ICE drive train energy conversion happens twice from liquid fuel to mechanical rotation. The hybrid drive train adds 2 more conversions. It will be interesting to see how these vehicles perform in those scenarios.
One thing makes me wonder, when towing your boat for X number of miles when you launch the boat in the water can the drive motors and battery pack be submerged in water and is everything waterproof, I still can't get this out of my mind is people in flood conditions such as Florida, Salt water is not their friend in shorting everything out and rendering the battery pack destroyed.
 

Docwagon1776

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Idk. An ICE engine at 40% efficiency driving a generator at 90% efficiency driving an electric motor at 80% efficiency. Seems like a number of losses between the liquid fuel and the rubber meeting the road.

Can't really argue numbers since they are just made up, but the ICE motor should be more efficient than a direct drive for reasons already stated. Then figure it doesn't have to run full time. Idling, downhill, deceleration, regenerative braking, etc.

Lack of a traditional transmission and it's power suck will be the biggest driver, IMO. Example:


So, again, flat lands of KS, steady speed, low traffic density you probably won't see much difference between this and a V6 truck as far as fuel economy, though power delivery will certainly feel different. Urban driving, hilly areas, stop and go, likely to see much bigger difference.

Still not a truck I'm interested in, but I think it's unfair to assume worse efficiency given EV drive train efficiencies. This, in all ways, will fall between the two. You'll have more parasitic loss than a full EV since you'll still need a traditional cooling system and the pumping losses that go with that, but less than a full ICE losing power running full time and transmitting power through a traditional automatic transmission and pumpkin.
 

chri5k

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Can't really argue numbers since they are just made up, but the ICE motor should be more efficient than a direct drive for reasons already stated. Then figure it doesn't have to run full time. Idling, downhill, deceleration, regenerative braking, etc.

Lack of a traditional transmission and it's power suck will be the biggest driver, IMO. Example:


So, again, flat lands of KS, steady speed, low traffic density you probably won't see much difference between this and a V6 truck as far as fuel economy, though power delivery will certainly feel different. Urban driving, hilly areas, stop and go, likely to see much bigger difference.

Still not a truck I'm interested in, but I think it's unfair to assume worse efficiency given EV drive train efficiencies. This, in all ways, will fall between the two. You'll have more parasitic loss than a full EV since you'll still need a traditional cooling system and the pumping losses that go with that, but less than a full ICE losing power running full time and transmitting power through a traditional automatic transmission and pumpkin.
I guess Toyota is making up their 38% efficiency number. https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ine-achieves-thermal-efficiency-of-38-percent
I guess Southern Illinois University is making up teaching DC machines. https://www.engr.siu.edu/staff/spezia/Web332A/Lecture Notes/Lesson 9 332ac.pdf
I guess Tesla was making it up when they told C&D Mag they went from 80% to 90% efficient. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...ial-media&utm_source=twitter&src=socialflowTW
 

Docwagon1776

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I guess Toyota is making up their 38% efficiency number. https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ine-achieves-thermal-efficiency-of-38-percent
I guess Southern Illinois University is making up teaching DC machines. https://www.engr.siu.edu/staff/spezia/Web332A/Lecture Notes/Lesson 9 332ac.pdf
I guess Tesla was making it up when they told C&D Mag they went from 80% to 90% efficient. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...ial-media&utm_source=twitter&src=socialflowTW

I doubt they are lying, but I assume we both understand difference between general and specific. Do you think Toyota's 1.3L is the equivalent for every gasoline motor? Obviously not, and I assume you don't think it does. So while we can guess what the numbers *could* be based on general ranges, the numbers here are simply made up in regards to this specific vehicle. Correct? Or do you believe your numbers are accurate and not just a guess based on what you assume?

Perhaps of interest to the specific discussion, the article you linked to about *how* Toyota got a more efficient ICE: "Used on the 1.3-liter unit, Atkinson-cycle engines typically feature variable valve timing, allowing inlet valves to remain open as the compression stroke begins. The lower air density leads to a more efficient fuel burn and higher thermal efficiency. Typically, the engines lack power compared to conventional Otto-cycle engines--offset in hybrids by additional power from the electric motor."

So isn't the article proving *my* point that ICE working in conjunction with an EV power source can be made more efficient?

You're assuming spherical cows, meaning your oversimplifying via removing multiple variables. Gas motors lose most of their potential via heat, common knowledge, no argument...but that's not the point. We're comparing an ICE running constantly vs an ICE running *intermittently*. We're comparing an ICE that must have a wide powerband to drive a vehicle acceptably from off idle to top end rpm vs a narrow powerband that has to only be optimized for a very specific rpm range (like the Toyota engine you yourself linked to. Do you not think that will lead to a gain in efficiencies for the ICE or do you disagree with your own source now?

What parasitic loss do you assign to a traditional transmission and pumpkin set up?

What gains do you then add back in to the system for regenerative braking?

Do you see how those answers are variables that modify the numbers taken in a vacuum that you posted above?
 

bballr4567

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Oh hell no, do not insult the OG Ramcharger with some POS EV pickup. I owned and loved a 1984 Ramcharger, AKA Bluebeast, this upcoming monstrosity is nothing close to the Ramcharger just like the new "Bronco" is nothing like the OG Bronco.
It's not an EV. You have to be more specific. It's a PHEV.
 

Atticus

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A few responses here where maybe the new Ramcharger wouldn't be a good fit.... but I believe there is a BIG segment of potential buyers that Ram is targeting and this will be a big hit.

These attributes reflect the sweet spot of prospective buyers;

1. "Everyday" driving needs are most commonly < 150 miles so the vast majority of day to day driving can be accomplished in 100% EV mode.
2. Owners have a convenient means to charge the Ram each night
3. Owners have favorable electricity costs
4. Owners have an occasional need to have a driving/towing distance well beyond the ~150mi EV range (maybe 70 miles when towing)

These attributes fit my needs pretty well. Over a period of 4-5 years, likely 70-80% of my usage could be in pure EV mode. On those occasions where I need to drive or tow longer distances.... I CAN, and at not too much of a penalty. Because of the size of my solar system, my electricity costs are literally $0 which means that "fuel" costs are only incurred in the minority part of my usage scenarios.
 

NCRaineman

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These attributes fit my needs pretty well. Over a period of 4-5 years, likely 70-80% of my usage could be in pure EV mode. On those occasions where I need to drive or tow longer distances.... I CAN, and at not too much of a penalty. Because of the size of my solar system, my electricity costs are literally $0 which means that "fuel" costs are only incurred in the minority part of my usage scenarios.
You are in the minority of people who would benefit from a vehicle like this. But even with solar your electricity isn't "free"... that solar equipment cost money and has to be maintained. You can't just ignore those costs and say "I charge for $0."
 

rzr6-4

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You are in the minority of people who would benefit from a vehicle like this. But even with solar your electricity isn't "free"... that solar equipment cost money and has to be maintained. You can't just ignore those costs and say "I charge for $0."

You mean green energy isn't totally free OR clean?? WWWHHHHAAAATTTTT. Greta lied to me.
 

Atticus

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I'm in the minority? How so?

1. The vast majority of folks are going to have every (normal) day driving distances < 150 miles.... so they will be able to be in 100% EV mode.
2. Means to charge overnight: Again, I think most people will have this. If not, I think the value/convenience proposition of an EV is much less favorable.
3. Yes, my electricity costs are extremely low but the RamCharger (like all other EVs) will let you select the charging times so that you have the most favorable rates for your area - typically after 9PM and before 8am.
4. "Occasional" need to drive >150 miles (or tow longer than ~75 miles).... this is really related to 1) above. If you are doing this a lot, maybe the Ramcharger isn't right for you. But, many, many people are buying trucks for their flexibility (safety, comfort, etc) but don't necessarily do towing tasks all that frequently.

So, we'll have to disagree. THIS is the "segment/buyer" that Ram is targeting and betting 10's if not 100's of $M to bring this vehicle to market.

Oh, and yes, my electric costs ARE free. This is already a sunk cost for me and production is what production is. I did exaggerate a bit when I said $0 because the reality is that SCE will pay me. Attached is my first full month's energy bill and you can see for yourself.
 

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Atticus

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Also curious why you believe there are "maintenance costs" associated with solar. This is our third house with solar and each time we installed ourselves and all 3 systems were Enphase systems (if your cared), but we've never had to spend any money on maintenance.
 
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dafish

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I'm not going to bother to dig deep into most of the resulting comments from my intro, but I will say these things:

1) It's obvious who has real-life experience w/EV's and PHEV's and who is repeating stuff they heard and/or fear.

2) Doc and Atticus have well responded, and I don't see anything they've said that's incorrect or I'd disagree with. I will add some real data though:

My heating, cooling, lighting, etc bill is retired by solar, and I use about 18MW/annum plus 6MW for the Tesla. Skipping the car: I avoid ~2,400 per annum in electricity costs. You can be darn cetai when I see this house it will be worth considerably more than a similar house that gets to waste that much, or more, per year. So yea, I could argue my ROI was the moment I installed the thing.

Certainly the electric and gas bill I save, close to ~$5k per year, is just fine w/me.

3) Home charging, where the vast majority of charging will be done is, for most of the US, pennies on the dollar relative to gasoline. So while I too own a solar plant with excess capacity (yep, that makes it free), the savings for those charging at home will be significant.

Now is it cheaper enough? Are the environment aspects of value? For many folks yes, but it's too early to predict cost factors for this thing.

4) Some data: My YLR consumes 6MW/annum and we put about 16K miles/year on it. If we assumed an similar sized/performance AWD crossover got 26MPG average (generous) and used $3.69 (national average fuel cost this year) we see an ICE would have consumer ~$2,271 in fuel. Mine was of course free (I apply that to the purchase of the Tesla), but in my area 13C per KW is average to high, so $780 dollars. That's 34.3% (hey, I was close enough). Note I leaned towards generous numbers too!


Two reference links that are reasonably accurate:


 

Atticus

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I really like (and largely agree with) this TED talk. In the least, I think you'll find it interesting if not controversial.

EV TED Talk

Regarding the topic of the cost of driving an EV, I think each prospective owner really needs to do their own calculations. Here in SoCal, our electricity costs are pretty dang high... and the cost per kW is tiered in your monthly consumption calculations. As an example, typically the highest usage costs are in the summer time when many people are using their AC a lot. In these months, many households are delving into the very highest tiers of energy. (This non-linear electric costs is the reason that solar can be attractive. In many cases, people can generate 30% of their energy needs, but reduce their electric bill by 60% because they get themselves out of these stupid-high tier rates.) I digress. Prospective EV buyers should sit down and understand their electric bills and then factor in the additional EV impact and try to get an accurate assessment of the true cost/mile. (Too many people rush to over-simplify their approach thinking that they will eliminate their gasoline bills - true, but then they fail to add in the cost of electricity - or they add it in a a very favorable but unrealistic base cost/kW rate.)
 

star_deceiver

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My yearly average is $0.34/kWh after all the fees and taxes and such. There is only one tier here, expensive. I question the payback time on a $10k-$30k solar system that generates next to nothing in the winter months. Hail insurance…. Let’s not start on higher rates because they feel like charging us more.
IMG_3916.jpeg

The info I have on house solar in my area is a break even period of 10-15 years…. But, this is also coming from people who can spend $30k on a whim and don’t really care what the electrical rates or break even times are.

This is the largest hailstone I found at my house. 3 blocks away they were double in size. I’ve been lucky.
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