Howy - Looking for 2025 Ramcharger Info, Stopping by...

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Atticus

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Yep, solar is NOT for everyone! A LOT depends on where you live (rates and amount of sunshine) as well as any available subsidies, etc. My first home was opposite of yours. My average electricity cost ~$6500 per year - the summer months running the AC a lot were the biggest contributors. My son and I installed 30 panels at a cost of about $25,000 total. The Federal tax credit was 30% ($7,500) and CA had a rebate of $1500. So, my out of pocket was ~$16,000. With the solar, my annual electricity cost dropped to a little less than $600/year. My payback was less than 3 years. Admittedly, this is almost an ideal scenario - high energy costs, a lot of sunshine, self-installed, etc. In summary, EACH person needs to decide if solar makes sense!

The real objective of my prior post was to encourage folks to understand what their EV "fill-up" costs were. At $0.34/kWh... depending on your EV battery size and consumption would be (ballpark) ~ $15. Inexpensive compared to gas, sure... but not free. Others can chime in with real-world experience but instead of $0.34/kWh, aren't real-world charging stations getting $0.60 - $0.80/kWh?? Charging at home - solar or not is MUCH less expensive as well as more convenient.
 

NCRaineman

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3) Home charging, where the vast majority of charging will be done is, for most of the US, pennies on the dollar relative to gasoline. So while I too own a solar plant with excess capacity (yep, that makes it free), the savings for those charging at home will be significant.

Now is it cheaper enough? Are the environment aspects of value? For many folks yes, but it's too early to predict cost factors for this thing.
What do you think is going to happen to electricity prices the average consumer pays as EVs gain a larger market share? The "savings" vs gasoline will disappear. Five years ago I was averaging $100/mo for electric. This year the bill averages $125/mo.

You'll be paying the equivalent of $5/gal for electricity, but you won't just be fueling your car with it... you'll be running your whole house! How about a $300/mo electric bill? Hmm not so good now, is it? Gas & diesel are advantageous as motor fuels because they DON'T compete with electricity, which powers our homes and businesses. I work from home. I drive maybe 50 miles a week. If I don't use gas I don't pay for it. Why do EV pushers want my power bill to go up?

Also one third of American households RENT. Where do they charge at? Condos and townhomes dont allow home chargers, and you think apartment slumlords are going to spend tens of thousands to add charging stalls to their parking lots? Get outta here!

What environmental aspects? Mining rare earth metals is extremely damaging to the environment, and is mostly being done in deplorable conditions by laborers in Africa and China. For those not among the 1% with home solar setups the electricity to charge EVs comes from the grid and is made by burning coal, oil and natural gas. All the EV does is move the point of pollution from the vehicle tailpipe to the power plant smokestack. "Out of sight, out of mind."
 
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Atticus

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Yes, you are largely correct. Here's an entertaining TED Talk that makes this point well, in my opinion.

TED Talk
 

bballr4567

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All the EV does is move the point of pollution from the vehicle tailpipe to the power plant smokestack. "Out of sight, out of mind."
While this is somewhat correct, the pollution per unit of energy created is smaller at a powerplant versus the tail pipe.
 

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dafish

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Readers:

The nature of human adoption tends to follow something like: Visionaries, then leaders, the thundering masses, and finally the doubters and naysayers. Pick the topic and that process will tend to manifest itself. It what it is. Sometimes we even get posts based on poor data. Lets see if I can clear anything up:

Environment and EV's:
1) If I was a global dictator I would address the worlds pollution by starting w/China and heading next to India in a macro sense, not just auto's. Per dollar, I would deliver (IMO) better results than anything I can do regardless of intent.

2) I quickly think about the old saw about figures lying. I've seen scads of arguments on both sides of EV environmental impact, and generally find the doubters reports (when said reports release their data), tend to be based on:
A. Energy supplied to the EV is assumed to be coal (which today is ~20% and falling)
B. Battery production implications aren't based on present day costs/impacts.
C. Battery production concerns fail to project for evolution. Evolution most certainly happens each and every day (We're right back to visionaries vs naysayers/doubters).
D. Myths are common, and usually hard to ferret out without digging into the flawed "science". Not a lot I can do. Here:
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

Grid cost will go up with EV expansion:
I've never seen support for such a thing. In fact, the vast majority of utility providers have substantial cost breaks in evening hours (off-peak), and many are giving even more price breaks for buying EV's. And of course most EV's are charged at night...

This is close to the claim of "our grid can't support it", which is of course nonsense. An electric clothes dryer or oven (anybody taking about cancelling thanksgiving?) takes more power, as does our nations HVAC plants. Little of said current demand, to say nothing of closed business, are in use while we're charging our EV's at night.

Duck Curve is another discussion of course, but I don't see a lot of renewables fluent posters in auto forums so I don't know that we should dip into V2G, V2H, OCPP/OCHP and etc.. For those so interested I suggest another thread, I'm happy to exchange thoughts there.


Renters are 1/3rd of the nation:
A. A market of 2/3rd of the nation is bad? We're back to the human nature of adoption mentioned above I guess, but a market potential of 66% is pretty darn hard to find.

B. Meanwhile, data can be misleading. Example: 40% of those renting are renting single family homes. Meaning well over 80% of US dwellers are in owned and/or single family unit's.

C. None of that's to say that a percentage of the populace, for a variety of reasons, won't have home charging as an option. Let me be clear: A percentage will not! This however, is key: Change, evolution, only comes when/as market demands. So it will be for charge at work, appt complexes stations, and etc..

D. I grant some will feel EV's are only reasonable to support if it improves their own life immediately. Societal responsibility is again another discussion outside of scope of Ram trucks (and not exactly unique to EV's).


"For those not among the 1% with home solar setups the electricity to charge EVs comes from the grid and is made by burning coal, oil and natural gas".

All forums and threads take a certain amount of statements that simply aren't accurate. Nature of the beast, and not a lot to be done about it. However, let me get us at least closer to real data. Just off my head I believe the US grid (and I'm going to be much much closer than above) are:
~20% from renewables (solar, hydo, wind)
~20% from nuclear
~20% from coal
~40~ natural gas

That's from memory so I'll be off a bit, but golly: Ignoring the grid generation of solar, wing, hydro, and nuc isn't insightful or useful. And once again if we look at evolution of the nations grid we see clear downward trends in coal, heightened interest in nuc expansion, and huge growth in solar and wind, etc.. How soon will the future manifest itself? You're a part of that!

Some of us, typically those prone to making longer term investment grade decisions, buy solar, wind generators, etc. 1%? More bad data: I'm seeing ~6% of homes in '23-24 data, and at this date I believe solar alone now makes more power than hydro. More, I know folks living in huge apartment complexes that invest in solar farms, wind farms, and etc and get energy discounts and a marketable asset too!

Let me close with these thoughts:

1) In my time in solar and EV's I've noted those that know the topics well are invariably supporters and those that don't...

2) EV and renewables adoption is well past the visionary, is passing through those with engineering and technology expertise, now is in at least the hands of those willing to lead, and is even moving into the hands of Jane and Joe average. These last steps bring the most challenge. Candidly there are more than a few wrinkles and problems to cover, some untouched in these posts. However:

1) Change, evolution, happens. When you embrace change, warts and all, perhaps even support it, varies from person to person. It comes down to what you see as the future and how soon it makes sense to you to participate in that. Some will demonize change (not new, right?). It's a bit like religion: Spread the light to those seeking it, move past those reacting or rejecting as politely as possible.

In the hopes I've spread a little light on better data....

-d
 

Docwagon1776

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I'm pretty EV agnostic. It's not for me. That said, much of the pushback is because of real and perceived mandates that will force EVs on people. A market of 66% is great. Unless it's mandated with no alternative. Then what do 33% do?

If an early adopter is a visionary or a rube is for history to decide. Not all change is for the better. EVs are likely here to stay, but I don't buy the first generation of anything. I am risk averse in this sense, particularly when there's no benefit for me. I don't spend enough in fuel for it to be a significant portion of my budget, so convenience and freedom matter more to me *by far* than cost of fueling. I don't want to have to plot out my trip, be afraid to deviate, suffer from range anxiety, real or imagined, deal with charging stations, eliminate my ability to tow and refuel without dropping a trailer if I choose, etc. None of it is worth it to me. Others will have different needs and wants, that's fine, but what works for you isn't for everyone.

I'm willing to go hybrid if the performance is better. Something like the Ranger Raptor with an EV component for instant torque, sure. But Ford apparently nixed that. I suspect I'll be in my Power Wagon for at least the next decade, though.
 

crash68

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Grid cost will go up with EV expansion:
I've never seen support for such a thing. In fact, the vast majority of utility providers have substantial cost breaks in evening hours (off-peak), and many are giving even more price breaks for buying EV's. And of course most EV's are charged at night...

This is close to the claim of "our grid can't support it", which is of course nonsense. An electric clothes dryer or oven (anybody taking about cancelling thanksgiving?) takes more power, as does our nations HVAC plants. Little of said current demand, to say nothing of closed business, are in use while we're charging our EV's at night.
You're completely naive on both these talking points, looking at EVs in short term situation not realizing the large term scale that has to happen. Tesla is cranking out shy of 2 million vehicles a year, most of the established ICE manufacturers crank out close to triple that for each one of them ... so Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, VW, KIA...just those make about 40 million more vehicles than Tesla does every year...
As more overall demand of electricity goes up with more people charging vehicles, same concept applies as that hot new product everyone wants...the price goes up with demand. Don't expect the government to step in and regulate the power cost, they can't even get mandating the shift to electric vehicles correctly.
As for the grid not supporting the load, there's this thing called the National Electric Code and they have rules on how the services and wiring within buildings/houses are sized so the structures don't burn down from overloaded systems. Most cities electrical grids never took into consideration of tripling to quadrupling the capacity. That amount of overhead is needed to ensure reliability and there isn't a cascade failure that takes out considerable large portion of states.
BEV will be nice someday, but not for everyone especially not anytime in the next 20 years minimum.
 

Atticus

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I'm pretty EV agnostic. It's not for me. That said, much of the pushback is because of real and perceived mandates that will force EVs on people. A market of 66% is great. Unless it's mandated with no alternative. Then what do 33% do?

If an early adopter is a visionary or a rube is for history to decide. Not all change is for the better. EVs are likely here to stay, but I don't buy the first generation of anything. I am risk averse in this sense, particularly when there's no benefit for me. I don't spend enough in fuel for it to be a significant portion of my budget, so convenience and freedom matter more to me *by far* than cost of fueling. I don't want to have to plot out my trip, be afraid to deviate, suffer from range anxiety, real or imagined, deal with charging stations, eliminate my ability to tow and refuel without dropping a trailer if I choose, etc. None of it is worth it to me. Others will have different needs and wants, that's fine, but what works for you isn't for everyone.
Completely agree. I 100% respect your position. I also don't think that you will get EV's pushed on you anytime soon. Market acceptance/demand will be the prevailing wind for EV adoption... and we are in the midst of a cooling period. The nationwide charging infrastructure needs to mature, higher capacity batteries need to become mainstream and overall EV prices need to come down. I think we'll see progressive trends in each of those area and in the interim, there will be plenty of ICE and hybrid alternatives.
 
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