Supercharger?

[lonewolf2873]

This thought has spawned from another members thread. I've been here and have read several posts for the last year. With that being said, my questions are this:

After taking care of tranny work, since it's my main fear of damage, how "safe" is supercharging? As in, if I'm not hitting track and not WOT everywhere I go, is the reliability of truck components in question? Keep the "you pay to play" comments to yourself please. There is a more appropriate way to talk to people you are trying to help, thanks.

I'm looking to have power on demand, getting on freeway or any situation I need more "Hemi foot".

I figure I can't afford a twin turbo lambo, which I wouldn't be WOT everywhere I drive to, so why not think within my realm.
As best I can remember, there are still no full tunes for superchargers. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
I'm not leaping into supercharging until full support and tuning is there.
SO, if I don't supercharge due to not fully supported, will I be able to still do tranny without any problems?

 

[Pull Ya]

Some people have problems with the 6 speed with just bolt on mod's and some people have not, kinda the luck of the draw and how you drive it and take care of it. The jury still seems to be out on the 8 speed but initially it seems to be a better and stronger trans. Everyone that I have read about that has supercharged has had trans problems(numerous) and they also complain about tuning. You didn't say if you had a 6 speed or an 8 speed, but at this point I think the 8 speed is a better trans. There are a couple of people that rebuild the 6 speed trans and people have had good luck with the stronger rebuilt trans. Also "Hemiup" has just started to rebuild the 6 speed trans and his reputation is well known in the trans world. Also L&M builds a great trans.
Jay

 

[charonblk07]

As PullYa said, it will depend on what trans you have. I personally have been running my L&M trans for 2 years behind my supercharged engine and I've had no issues. I'm well aware of the limitations of the 545rfe and while I go WOT quite regularly I do make sure I manually shift to 3rd before stomping on the gas. I also made my 545 last behind my '07 with cam/heads/nitrous so there's something to be said about the driving style as well.

As for the supercharger, Procharger has tuning available with their kit. You are stuck with running 6-7psi on their tune but if that's enough go for you then you're set.

 

[CuylerTech]

As PullYa said, it will depend on what trans you have. I personally have been running my L&M trans for 2 years behind my supercharged engine and I've had no issues. I'm well aware of the limitations of the 545rfe and while I go WOT quite regularly I do make sure I manually shift to 3rd before stomping on the gas. I also made my 545 last behind my '07 with cam/heads/nitrous so there's something to be said about the driving style as well.

As for the supercharger, Procharger has tuning available with their kit. You are stuck with running 6-7psi on their tune but if that's enough go for you then you're set.

How many pounds of boost do you think you could safely run on a stockish engine with a procharger if you didnt use their tune? Also if you dont mind, what dyno numbers are you pulling?

 

[jcat]

How many pounds of boost do you think you could safely run on a stockish engine with a procharger if you didnt use their tune? Also if you dont mind, what dyno numbers are you pulling?

In these engines, there are hypereutectic pistons and very tight tolerances. Earlier hemi's suffered from weak ring lands, nobody seems to be able to confirm whether this has been improved or not. Both of those things make it risky at best to boost without doing internals.

Procharger's kit runs 7psi as I recall. 10-12psi is typically the limit of what most factory fuel systems can keep up with. At that point you'll want to upgrade at minimum fuel pump, and introduce a rising rate fuel regulator. You'll also want to datalog the injectors to confirm duty cycle, as you don't want them just wide open pumping fuel at WOT. This of course assuming you're running an intercooled kit.

The engine itself, I wouldn't go over the 7psi. Procharger pays people lots of money to develop and engineer their systems, and if they say 7psi is safe for a bolt-on kit, I wouldn't go past it. You're obviously not going to be putting the thing into boost constantly, but you will see it on occasion since you'll want to use the power from time to time.

 

[CuylerTech]

In these engines, there are hypereutectic pistons and very tight tolerances. Earlier hemi's suffered from weak ring lands, nobody seems to be able to confirm whether this has been improved or not. Both of those things make it risky at best to boost without doing internals.

Procharger's kit runs 7psi as I recall. 10-12psi is typically the limit of what most factory fuel systems can keep up with. At that point you'll want to upgrade at minimum fuel pump, and introduce a rising rate fuel regulator. You'll also want to datalog the injectors to confirm duty cycle, as you don't want them just wide open pumping fuel at WOT. This of course assuming you're running an intercooled kit.

The engine itself, I wouldn't go over the 7psi. Procharger pays people lots of money to develop and engineer their systems, and if they say 7psi is safe for a bolt-on kit, I wouldn't go past it. You're obviously not going to be putting the thing into boost constantly, but you will see it on occasion since you'll want to use the power from time to time.

The engine will probably be built down the road anyways. Dropped $2700 on a new transmission yesterday thats rated for 700+HP so the limiting factor after the SC will be the engine itself. Already going the route with external oil and transmission coolers,Procharger Intercooled kit, bigger injectors and a new fuel system.

 

[VPRPWRD]

I have my Procharger kit on order for my customer. Install is scheduled for 3/28. Once I get it put on I will do a write up on the install and give my initial thoughts on the kit. Hopefully this will help you make a more informed decision on what you'd like to do.

 

[CuylerTech]

I have my Procharger kit on order for my customer. Install is scheduled for 3/28. Once I get it put on I will do a write up on the install and give my initial thoughts on the kit. Hopefully this will help you make a more informed decision on what you'd like to do.

I wont be picking up my kit till may at the earliest, but still contemplating doing TT vs SC. Willing to dump probably $10K into the engine to get it where I want.

 

[MyOhFive]

Can I have directions to your money tree please..?

 

[CuylerTech]

Can I have directions to your money tree please..?

Save a little from each paycheck and tax refund check lol.

 

[charonblk07]

How many pounds of boost do you think you could safely run on a stockish engine with a procharger if you didnt use their tune? Also if you dont mind, what dyno numbers are you pulling?

The engine can handle 9-10psi but you're pushing the pistons at that point unless you run a cooling additive like water/**** injection. A set of drop-in pistons will allow you to run up to 12psi then you'd be looking at needing to change the rods.

If you get a custom tune you can use the SRT4 stage-1 injectors that the Procharger kit comes with up to the 12psi but you'll be at the max of the stock fuel pump. A pulley swap will increase the boost and I've found that a 3.35" is the smallest the system will handle before you start having belt slip issues.

As for my build, I'm putting down 650/630 to the wheels.

In these engines, there are hypereutectic pistons and very tight tolerances. Earlier hemi's suffered from weak ring lands, nobody seems to be able to confirm whether this has been improved or not. Both of those things make it risky at best to boost without doing internals.

Procharger's kit runs 7psi as I recall. 10-12psi is typically the limit of what most factory fuel systems can keep up with. At that point you'll want to upgrade at minimum fuel pump, and introduce a rising rate fuel regulator. You'll also want to datalog the injectors to confirm duty cycle, as you don't want them just wide open pumping fuel at WOT. This of course assuming you're running an intercooled kit.

The engine itself, I wouldn't go over the 7psi. Procharger pays people lots of money to develop and engineer their systems, and if they say 7psi is safe for a bolt-on kit, I wouldn't go past it. You're obviously not going to be putting the thing into boost constantly, but you will see it on occasion since you'll want to use the power from time to time.

Pistons haven't changed, 5.7L cars are still popping ring lands but not as often as before because there are cheap drop-in forged piston options that have become the norm in preparation for bigger builds.

The engine will probably be built down the road anyways. Dropped $2700 on a new transmission yesterday thats rated for 700+HP so the limiting factor after the SC will be the engine itself. Already going the route with external oil and transmission coolers,Procharger Intercooled kit, bigger injectors and a new fuel system.

Procharger sends the SRT4 stage-1 injectors (or equivalent flow rate injectors) with their kit and for reference I'm still running them in my build backed by a Walbro 400 pump and a complete return fuel system. I would not do the external trans cooler unless you're noticing high trans temps. There's no need to change the front trans cooler with the Procharger intercooler, you don't want to run the trans too cold as that is just as bad as running it too hot.

I wont be picking up my kit till may at the earliest, but still contemplating doing TT vs SC. Willing to dump probably $10K into the engine to get it where I want.

The TT will be harder to tune but if you've got an experienced hemi tuner then you should be good.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

When you say "drop in" pistons, I assume they still require a hone, correct?

 

[jcat]

If you're at the point of doing pistons you may as well do rods, and if you're doing both of those you may as well do the crank while you're in there.

 

[charonblk07]

When you say "drop in" pistons, I assume they still require a hone, correct?

You should get a hone because you have to seat new rings, but you aren't going to bore the cylinder, just put new hatching in and can be done with a drill honing tool.

If you're at the point of doing pistons you may as well do rods, and if you're doing both of those you may as well do the crank while you're in there.

Pistons are $800, full rotating assembly starts at $2500. Pistons will safely take the engine well past his hp goals. With a 10k budget there's no room for a full rotating assembly.


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[RLJ10X]

I don't know anything about anything, but.....

I remember reading magazine article about how they took a 5.7 out of a junkyard, with 80,000ish miles on it, and tried to blow it up by putting some sort of huge turbo on it. These guys said that the reason the Pistons break is because the top ring, especially are so tight. But in the engine with 80,000 miles on it, with a little room for expansion, it held up. I think these engines are just built too tight, to put much boost to them. I think after 100,000 miles, I'd cut loose with some real boost.

$2700 for a 700 hp tranny was quite reasonable, and money well spent.

 

[TriSum]

I remember reading magazine article about how they took a 5.7 out of a junkyard, with 80,000ish miles on it, and tried to blow it up by putting some sort of huge turbo on it. These guys said that the reason the Pistons break is because the top ring, especially are so tight. But in the engine with 80,000 miles on it, with a little room for expansion, it held up. I think these engines are just built too tight, to put much boost to them.

The reason most stock engines break pistons is due to a few reasons:

1: The ring land is too close to the top of the piston and end gap is too tight for the heat produced by the rise in combustion temps from the boost. As the rings get hot the metal expands and the rings will actually touch, end to end. Once they cannot expand anymore from interference they will break, causing piston and bore damage.

2: Detonation; we all know what this is and can take out a piston instantly if bad enough. Detonation can put a hole in a piston, crack the edges, chip the rings, etc. BAD STUFF !!

3: Once you go past the "working" potential of the metal, (too much stress), it will fail. Part's are designed to handle certain amounts of "stress", once this is surpassed time will only tell when that part will fail.

David

 

[RLJ10X]

This is the article I was referring to.

 

[charonblk07]

You can gap the rings aggressively but the downside to that is a large ring gap means a LOT of blowby. My rings are gapped wide to handle my build but I burn quite a bit of oil, have a lot of fuel infiltration into my oil, and I pressurize my crankcase faster than my smog pump can clear it out because of it. Having large ring gap is not the answer to the problem because it introduces different issues. A set of forged pistons will absorb more heat and even if the rings touch you won't pop a piston top.


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[Dubstep Shep]

Two words: gapless rings

 

[TriSum]

You can gap the rings aggressively but the downside to that is a large ring gap means a LOT of blowby.

Having large ring gap is not the answer to the problem because it introduces different issues. A set of forged pistons will absorb more heat and even if the rings touch you won't pop a piston top.

A forged piston will melt while a Hypereutectic piston will normally crack or chip. If the ring ends touch it doesn't matter if they "pop" the piston top or not, the ring will usually break and that can lead to all kinds of problems.

The answer is to build a piston with a thicker top (crown), with the ring land further down so the heat does not get into the ring. This accomplishes two things; it keeps the ring from getting hot and expanding and also getting hot and losing its tension.

Two words: gapless rings

Gapless rings, like Total Seal are great rings and I have had great luck with them, although they are not the answer to all builds. They are more expensive but can work well.

David