Synthetic Oil

[Rod Knock]

Where else did you get your notions about track oil and redline?

Actually, from Savagegeese on YouTube. I was already familiar with motor oil before I stumbled on BITOG due to a Google search. You're just making assumptions about me without knowing all the facts. As I said, I'll keep quiet from now on. Everyone can do their own research and ask and answer the same questions every few pages instead of innovating and coming up with something new. It is what it is. I got other things I need to tend to.

 

[Burla]

Maybe when I get around to it I'll start another hemi tick thread with super class 0w40's if nobody else will. I guess the only reason I hadn't was because 0w40 isn't really palatable with guys and 1500's, other wise I perhaps would have.

 

[Travis8352]

How many have tested for TAN in conjunction with TBN?


Please stop. I'm not the typical BITOGer. I have an account there, just like you do. Weren't you complaining about the ad hominem attack strategy over there and how they attacked your character? By putting me in the same box, you are doing the same thing to me, and that's not very nice of you.


I actually do real-world testing. I actually noticed the difference between 0W-40 and 5W-20. I tried different filters, I replaced the thermostat, and I did a grille shutter delete. And I can see results. The ECM in 5.7 is coded to look for 5W-20. And 5W-20 combined with cooler running temperatures makes the truck run like a bat out of hell on 87 octane gas. That makes it in turn more efficient.


Yes, and I have asked the right questions without getting much in the way of answers. But, at the end of the day, I can rebuild my HEMI if it ***** the bed. That's fine. I want to prevent it and to prevent it. I need to know why it fails. On the flip side, arguing instead of having a civilized discussion is counterproductive. I don't just post stuff randomly. I research it, just like when I figured out the two types of fluids that go into the BW44-44 transfer case for pre-2016 models (TES-389) and post-2016 models (Mobilfluid LT). Because of me, when you go to RedLine.com and put in the truck info for a RAM 1500 that's 2016 or newer, there is actually a fluid recommendation for the BW44-44 transfer case in the form of RedLine MT-LV. Before that, they only had a recommendation for the NV transfer cases in the form of RedLine C+. So it takes time and effort to find information and post it. And maybe I am putting too much time into this without even getting the satisfaction of a productive dialogue. So I will keep quiet from now on.

I for one have learned a ton from your posts and hope you dont keep quiet

 

[Rod Knock]

Maybe when I get around to it I'll start another hemi tick thread with super class 0w40's if nobody else will. I guess the only reason I hadn't was because 0w40 isn't really palatable with guys and 1500's, other wise I perhaps would have.

I've just been playing with an operating viscosity calculator, and it seems that you're better off with 0W-40 than even with 5W-30 ILSAC oil in cold climates. For example, at -35C, you're better off with 0W-40 than even with 5W-20. I wish I had the time to do more testing, but I don't have two little kids and a ton of problems.

I was shocked at how well the engine performs with 5W-20 if it can run cool enough. I would have never known had I not replaced the thermostat and removed the grille shutters. I think that it also reduces the sparkplug ignition timing when it's running cooler temperatures. A 4 MPG difference and more power on 87 octane gas is nothing to sneeze at, and this is just due to stupid ECM programming. I guess a good compromise for me would be to go to Red Line 5W-20. I actually tried to get a hold of Elite Race Fab on Friday, but no one picked up. They are about 30 miles from me and have it for $38 a gallon. I just wanted to make sure they had it in stock. I have to go that way anyway. I also considered Schaeffers since they have an awesome additive package that's proprietary to them. I want to keep my new awesome MPG and still get good protection, so I am not in a rush to fill it back up with 0W-40.

I for one have learned a ton from your posts and hope you dont keep quiet

And I learned a lot from you and a lot of other people here. @Burla was the one who inspired me to look deeper into these issues, plus it's fun. I just got momentarily upset because I don't like to be made part of or compared to a bunch of lemmings who like to regurgitate the same thing over and over again. And @Burla, I don't care if I or anyone else calls Red Line track oil because if I can keep this engine alive for another 10 years using Red Line, then I'm happy. If I can keep the same MPG with Red Line 5W-20 as I have now with M1 EP 5W-20, then the money in gas savings more than make up for the expense in oil.

@Burla shake hands and pinky swear, I don't want or like to argue with you.

 

[Travis8352]

@phoenixgenesys
I have a questioj for you. When i first researched the transfer case fluid for these trucks everyone said atf so i bought a gallon of delvac 1 atf. Then reading your posts i found that 2016 and newer had mobilfluid lt. Mine is a 44-45 case and i cant find much info about it compared to the 44-44. Since the 44-45 has "4wd lock" instead of "4wd auto" like the 44-44 im wondering if the delvac 1 atf would still be okay for my transfer case? I hope so as im sitting on a gallon of it

 

[Rod Knock]

@phoenixgenesys
I have a questioj for you. When i first researched the transfer case fluid for these trucks everyone said atf so i bought a gallon of delvac 1 atf. Then reading your posts i found that 2016 and newer had mobilfluid lt. Mine is a 44-45 case and i cant find much info about it compared to the 44-44. Since the 44-45 has "4wd lock" instead of "4wd auto" like the 44-44 im wondering if the delvac 1 atf would still be okay for my transfer case? I hope so as im sitting on a gallon of it

Mine had Mobilfluid LT in it when I drained it (I could tell by the color and lack of any predominant ATF smell) and I replaced it with AMSOIL ATF (per my signature).

Yes, Delvac 1 ATF is a TES-295 approved fluid and it would be a nice upgrade over the Dexron III class TES-389 fluid that ships from the factory (made by Shell). Delvac 1 ATF is mostly PAO. IIRC, the engineer who wrote TES-295 said that it lasts at least twice as long as TES-389 in an Allison transmission. In a transfer case, it would perform even better since it's not really as stressed as in an automatic transmission.

 

[Travis8352]

Mine had Mobilfluid LT in it when I drained it (I could tell by the color and lack of any predominant ATF smell) and I replaced it with AMSOIL ATF (per my signature).

Yes, Delvac 1 ATF is a TES-295 approved fluid and it would be a nice upgrade over the Dexron III class TES-389 fluid that ships from the factory (made by Shell). Delvac 1 ATF is mostly PAO. IIRC, the engineer who wrote TES-295 said that it lasts at least twice as long as TES-389 in an Allison transmission. In a transfer case, it would perform even better since it's not really as stressed as in an automatic transmission.

Perfect i will use it. Thank you. I panicked after hearing i have mobilfluid lt and i confirmed that and i also discovered its low from the factory. Ill change it asap. Im curious what mobil will do to delvac 1 atf to meet the new tes668 spec

 

[ramffml]

@phoenixgenesys for what it's worth, I've noticed no difference in fuel economy between Redline 5w-20 and 5w-30. In fact my most impressive runs to date are 25 MPG with RL 5w-30. That's 3 hours at about 63 mph average, driving like a granny which I do regardless of oil. I haven't tried the same trip yet with RL 5w-20 simply because I used that oil over the winter and didn't make that trip last winter, but clearly the 5w-30 isn't harming my MPG with that kind of number

It could be confirmation bias, but I do believe the MDS (when I forget to turn it off) seems to be slightly more smooth and fluid with 5w-20 though. Seems to me over the winter it ran a little better there but that's a small price to pay since I always disable it anyway.

 

[Rod Knock]

So far I've found this old UOA of Castrol EDGE 0W-40 in a 6.4 HEMI. This looks like the mid-SAPS version of EDGE 0W-40, which is Dexos 2 approved.

Here is the PDS: https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/...721F7238025842B0020C2A1/$File/BPXE-BDPVTQ.pdf

Here is the Dexos 2 website: https://www.gmdexos.com/brands/dexos2/index.html

This would be analogous to PUP 0W-40 and Mobil 1 ESP 0W-40.

While you can't see any metallic additives on the UOA, this oil is loaded with organic additives and friction modifiers, and the VII content is low. You can infer that from the low flashpoint.

My interest in full-SAPS (if you can even call full SAPA because it's 1.1%, so 0.2% away from mid-SAPS), Castrol EDGE 0W-40 is that it's closely related to its Dexos 2 variant. In other words, it's high-tech motor oil. Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 is not going to be improved anymore, as Mobil just wants to manufacture it as cheaply as possible and keep it available on the shelves at Walmart for as long as it sells. It's damn good oil.

@Burla, if you could fish a few more UOAs with Castrol EDGE 0W-40 and post them, that would be great. You know this forum like the back of your hand so you know where to find them. Comparing some UOAs with PUP and Mobil 1 would be great.

 

[Rod Knock]

@phoenixgenesys for what it's worth, I've noticed no difference in fuel economy between Redline 5w-20 and 5w-30. In fact my most impressive runs to date are 25 MPG with RL 5w-30. That's 3 hours at about 63 mph average, driving like a granny which I do regardless of oil. I haven't tried the same trip yet with RL 5w-20 simply because I used that oil over the winter and didn't make that trip last winter, but clearly the 5w-30 isn't harming my MPG with that kind of number

It could be confirmation bias, but I do believe the MDS (when I forget to turn it off) seems to be slightly more smooth and fluid with 5w-20 though. Seems to me over the winter it ran a little better there but that's a small price to pay since I always disable it anyway.

I do get great fuel mileage on 0W-40 if I baby the truck and drive it like a granny. I get amazing engine response, more power, and impressive fuel mileage on 5W-20, with the big oil filter, 180F thermostat, and grille shutter delete. I can hammer it and get 19 mpg. It's a breeze to get over 20mpg. I didn't even try to drive it like a granny yet.

It's not the MDS, but the cam phaser. My local engine builder that runs his own machine shop told me to be careful about the cam phaser when I bragged about running 0W-40 because it might be slower to react. When I told him that I also run a 180F thermostat and that the grille shutters are gone, he was like: "Okay..." And I was like "pfft, I got forum knowledge behind me." Maybe the man had a point, as he built a few HEMIs in his lifetime and maybe he knows what he's talking about.

I have not seen such fuel mileage in any other vehicle where I went from thick to thin oil or the other way around. Usually, it's barely detectable. I know it's hard to believe, and had I not messed with the engine's thermal performance, I would have never found out.

 

[Travis8352]

I do get great fuel mileage on 0W-40 if I baby the truck and drive it like a granny. I get amazing engine response, more power, and impressive fuel mileage on 5W-20, with the big oil filter, 180F thermostat, and grille shutter delete. I can hammer it and get 19 mpg. It's a breeze to get over 20mpg. I didn't even try to drive it like a granny yet.

It's not the MDS, but the cam phaser. My local engine builder that runs his own machine shop told me to be careful about the cam phaser when I bragged about running 0W-40 because it might be slower to react. When I told him that I also run a 180F thermostat and that the grille shutters are gone, he was like: "Okay..." And I was like "pfft, I got forum knowledge behind me." Maybe the man had a point, as he built a few HEMIs in his lifetime and maybe he knows what he's talking about.

I have not seen such fuel mileage in any other vehicle where I went from thick to thin oil or the other way around. Usually, it's barely detectable. I know it's hard to believe, and had I not messed with the engine's thermal performance, I would have never found out.

What was your fuel mileage like on 0w40 bedore you did the 180 stat?

 

[Rod Knock]

What was your fuel mileage like on 0w40 bedore you did the 180 stat?

It was slightly better than after I did the thermostat. Towing 2000~3000 lbs was around 14 to 15 mpg. After the thermostat and grille shutter delete it dropped to 12 mpg. You can't tell the difference unless you put the engine under a bigger load because that's where the cam phaser needs to do its job. Before the thermostat job, I saw temperatures of 240F or higher for oil and coolant while towing. After that, they never went past 220F, and even when they got there they came back down quickly. Either the cam phaser is very sensitive to operating viscosity or the ECM is programmed to work the cam phaser at peak performance only when it detects the viscosity that it likes. When you have an operating viscosity of 16 to 18 CST, that's about twice what it expects to find. And what you effectively get most of the time with 0W-40, a 180F t-stat, and no grille shutters. Do you see the corelation?

 

[Rod Knock]

@Travis8352 I only went to 0W-40 to maintain MOFT at those ridiculous temperatures (the HEMI runs way too hot from the factory), especially while towing. While towing you're looking at 6 CST with 5W-20, and you can drop to as low as 3 CST if you're going up something like Ike's Gauntlet. With 0W-40 you're looking at 9.5 CST, respectively 5 to 6 CST. That's a big difference. Unfortunately, I also found out that once you start heating up Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 like that, it evaporates. That's one of the reasons while I'm not really looking forward to using it again.

 

[Travis8352]

@Travis8352 I only went to 0W-40 to maintain MOFT at those ridiculous temperatures (the HEMI runs way too hot from the factory), especially while towing. While towing you're looking at 6 CST with 5W-20, and you can drop to as low as 3 CST if you're going up something like Ike's Gauntlet. With 0W-40 you're looking at 9.5 CST, respectively 5 to 6 CST. That's a big difference. Unfortunately, I also found out that once you start heating up Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 like that, it evaporates. That's one of the reasons while I'm not really looking forward to using it again.

Did you ever have to add oil with m1 0w40? Any idea what noack is for m1 0w40?

 

[Rod Knock]

Did you ever have to add oil with m1 0w40? Any idea what noack is for m1 0w40?

Last year I did some towing before changing the thermostat. After 5000 miles I noticed that little over half a quart was missing. Then after I did the thermostat mod and grille shutter delete I never needed to add oil again, and I towed even heavier.

The NOACK for M1 FS 0W-40 is probably around 10% to 11%, but in reality it could be slightly higher. I'm not the only person with this kind of experience. If you search YouTube, you will find a lot of people with Euro cars who went to Castrol EDGE or other 0W-40 because their cars were drinking Mobil 1 FS 0W-40. It's a mostly GTL oil, and not Mobil's best. I wonder if Shell sells GTL to anyone else beside ExxonMobil.

 

[HTXRamExp]

Quick circle back to xfer case fluid. I had purchased for 19 Ram 1500 Classic w/ the BW44-45 (no auto 4x4) Red Line Oil 30604 C+ATF. I hadn't got around to actually changing the fluid yet.

Looking now, Red Line recommends MT-LV 70W/75W GL-4.

Would I be better off ordering the new stuff or stick with what I already have?

 

[Rod Knock]

Quick circle back to xfer case fluid. I had purchased for 19 Ram 1500 Classic w/ the BW44-45 (no auto 4x4) Red Line Oil 30604 C+ATF. I hadn't got around to actually changing the fluid yet.

Looking now, Red Line recommends MT-LV 70W/75W GL-4.

Would I be better off ordering the new stuff or stick with what I already have?

RedLine recommends MT-LV for BW transfer cases because of me. But they never bothered to go into depth with it. I asked Dave from RedLine to recommend ATF D4 for BW44-45. I also asked him to recommend ATF D4 for BW44-44 older than 2016. You can use ATF C+ safely in the BW44-45 as it has no clutches. You.

 

[Rod Knock]

Did you ever have to add oil with m1 0w40? Any idea what noack is for m1 0w40?

Look up on YouTube failed 5.7 HEMIs due to spun bearings. That's something that gives me pause and makes me think that it's a bad idea to go back to 5W-20. Those running Red Line 5W-30 don't really have to give a damn. But when pulling a 5000 lbs. trailer all that stands between the bearings and the crank is a tiny oil film.

 

[HTXRamExp]

RedLine recommends MT-LV for BW transfer cases because of me. But they never bothered to go into depth with it. I asked Dave from RedLine to recommend ATF D4 for BW44-45. I also asked him to recommend ATF D4 for BW44-44 older than 2016. You can use ATF C+ safely in the BW44-45 as it has no clutches. You.

Roger that. Thanks for the confirmation. Have a bunch of maintenance lined up for when I get back home after this work hitch; wanted to make sure I'd have what I needed to get at it right away.

 

[Murphy Slaw]

This place looks different.
Can't put my finger on it...