To clean or not clean the oil pan, that is the question

[Zoltar4]

2011 Ram 5.7 Hemi 4x4 , 194K Mi. in shop to fix timing issue. Mechanic said chain guide bolt sheared off allowing chain slip and timing problem. Fine, 6 hours labor, chain kit, oil pump gaskets, etc ~ $1,200 which is quite good imo.
But now mechanic says the bolt head is sitting in the oil pan (he used x ray specs....NOT) and that if I don't clean out the pan, bolt head will get sucked up by oil pump and then seize engine. He wants 5 hours labor to drop pan and clean it out.
Is that worth it or take chances not knowing where the heck that bolt head has been or is now? The oil filter cannot trap a chunk of metal??

 

[crash68]

There's a screen at the bottom of the oil pump pick up tube, it's not going to suck a bolt head up.
If there's metal shavings in the bottom of the pan, that would be the reason to pull the pan to clean it. Even if it's $600 to clean the pan it's cheaper than an engine.

 

[Wild one]

He should be able to fish it out with a flexible magnet,if not,stick a good sized neodinium magnet to the bottom of the pan,and it'll keep it from rattling around in the pan.If the timing chain went,how are the valves,the hemi is an interferance engine,and quite often if the chain jumps a tooth or 2,the valves will hit the pistons and bend,so did he pull the heads to check the valves

 

[Zoltar4]

Thanks wild one, very helpful. is it in any way possible to flush the oil pan through the drain plug hole? Some fluid that might rinse shavings out?

 

[Zoltar4]

Thanks Crash68....so mechanic says the bolt is aluminum and magnet cannot grab it. I keep asking mechanic about camshaft. He claims he can scope it and says it is fine. Valve covers not off Have to believe that is another 3 hrs labor?

 

[GTyankee]

Every engine that i have had the pan off of had a screen on the Oil Pump Pick Up Tube.
Also the screen does not sit directly on the pan, it is elevated.

I am trying to picture how the bolt would fall into pan from the timing chain cover, i am not going to Google it.

This is an illustration of many different engines

 

[Wild one]

Thanks Crash68....so mechanic says the bolt is aluminum and magnet cannot grab it. I keep asking mechanic about camshaft. He claims he can scope it and says it is fine. Valve covers not off Have to believe that is another 3 hrs labor?

There's no bolts in the engine that are aluminium,he's BS'ing you for more money.That mechanic sounds a bit shady,as the only way he can really scope the cam is if the heads are off,and he's removed the lifters.A good wash gun and some solvent will clean out the pan pretty easy,if he's outside,he can even use gas or diesal and a wash gun to hose out the pan.

 

[Zoltar4]

I agree with you wild one....so I think I will ask him to just install new timing kit (chain, phaser, guide, tensioner, gasket) and new oil pump (it got some scuffing from chain), set timing and get it running. Will it even run after that if the valves are bent? Why do I get the feeling if I tell him to fix timing and button it all up that he will call me and say engine wont run because valves bent / cam scored, etc? I DID drive it there....no metal or chain noise whatsoever.

 

[kirk35]

Like Wild One said the aluminum bolt story is complete BS, and the pickup tube screen will prevent the bolt from getting to the pump. I wouldn’t worry about it myself.

 

[Wild one]

I agree with you wild one....so I think I will ask him to just install new timing kit (chain, phaser, guide, tensioner, gasket) and new oil pump (it got some scuffing from chain), set timing and get it running. Will it even run after that if the valves are bent? Why do I get the feeling if I tell him to fix timing and button it all up that he will call me and say engine wont run because valves bent / cam scored, etc? I DID drive it there....no metal or chain noise whatsoever.

If it ran there with-out popping and back firing through the intake or exhaust,you might have got lucky and not bent any valves

 

[Zoltar4]

update: I saw the truck up on the rack today with the timing cover and chain / gears off. The issue is the chain ground off a good bit of aluminum oil pump housing which dropped into the oil pan which to my surprise is partly exposed (front end is open from top) . Shining a flashlight into the pan, you can see little flakes of aluminum. There is enough aluminum missing from the oil pump that I was convinced the oil pan should be cleaned out. It's another $600 but necessary now that I see the situation

 

[indept]

Tell him to save the aluminum bolt head that he claims fell in the pan for you.

 

[06 Dodge]

Depending on how much aluminum is thought to be ground up an in the oil pan and if I understand it you drove it to the shop correct, I would say use a gallon of diesel in a sprayer to wash the oil pan out let, then it drain for a few hours, then wash it down with a gallon of cheap 5w oil as any chance of sparkles that were in the pan that you see and you are your worried about that may get picked up by the oil pump are already in the oil gallies from you driving it to the shop, but then its not my call to make...

 

[tron67j]

So, in the original problem, if a bolt sheared either the whole gear falls off or it doesn't, but it can't slip because there is a keyed slot with the key keeping it from slipping. Am I missing something here? So a timing issue, to me, is not the same as a gear falling off or chain breaking, that means engine isn't running. With the story that a aluminum bolt sheared (try torquing an aluminum bolt) I would be suspect that the timing issue wasn't fixed cheaper and parts and labor inflated. Not saying replacement of the chain isn't a good thing for maintenance, and it may just be my lack of exposure to engine internals for many years, but I don't think the parts replaced were the cause for a timing issue.

 

[Zoltar4]

Update: I went to look at my truck up on the mechanic's rack. The lower timing chain guide bolt broke off as did the lower piece of plastic and sleeve the bolt goes through on the guide. The crank pulley teeth are chewed moderately, phaser gears fine. He had the pieces of the bolt and acknowledged they are steel and cannot pass the uptake screen (thanks for arming me with that knowledge!!). His main issue was all the aluminum ground off of the oil pump case by the loose timing chain (see arrow in photo). I put a magnet on the case....it's not magnetic (the plate that faces the chain is). I did not know that you can see into the front part of the open oil pan with the timing cover and all off the truck). Shining the flashlight into the pan, you can see the glittery metal in there. I'm not saying the mechanic doesn't have a salt shaker full of aluminum dust but given that I see metal WOULD seem to be able to just drop into the pan from that housing, I decided to bite the bullet on the incremental $600 to have him remove and clean out the pan. Thank you all for the helpful information

 

[Wild one]

Update: I went to look at my truck up on the mechanic's rack. The lower timing chain guide bolt broke off as did the lower piece of plastic and sleeve the bolt goes through on the guide. The crank pulley teeth are chewed moderately, phaser gears fine. He had the pieces of the bolt and acknowledged they are steel and cannot pass the uptake screen (thanks for arming me with that knowledge!!). His main issue was all the aluminum ground off of the oil pump case by the loose timing chain (see arrow in photo). I put a magnet on the case....it's not magnetic (the plate that faces the chain is). I did not know that you can see into the front part of the open oil pan with the timing cover and all off the truck). Shining the flashlight into the pan, you can see the glittery metal in there. I'm not saying the mechanic doesn't have a salt shaker full of aluminum dust but given that I see metal WOULD seem to be able to just drop into the pan from that housing, I decided to bite the bullet on the incremental $600 to have him remove and clean out the pan. Thank you all for the helpful information

Now that we know the issue,you're mechanic is probably right and the pan should come off for cleaning.I'd even ask him about washing out the inside of the crankcase/engine as much as possible to,when he has the pan off.When it's back together use some cheap oil,and change it in about 75 miles and cut open the filter at the same time,if the engine still has aluminium floating around in it,you should be able to see it in the oil and filter pleats if you cut the filter open.
If you're not sure how to cut a filter open,google it on you tube,there's a bunch of video's explaining how to do it.

 

[EdGs]

^^^^this^^^^

Most definately a couple short interval oil and filter changes with cheap oil, that should catch the residual excess crud in there.

 

[dpinvidic]

Do you really want to trust this mechanic when he claims a bolt is aluminum???

 

[Neomoritate]

If a mechanic lied to me about an aluminum bolt, I'd have my truck towed to another shop immediately, call my bank to dispute any charges, and make an official complaint to the state licensing agency. Advising a customer that they need a service that MAY not be necessary is pretty standard (though still shady). Blatantly lying to coerce one to pay for unnecessary service is fraud.

 

[Marshall]

There are two sided to every story, Did he really say aluminum bolt head or a bolt head and aluminum parts in the pan?
Then you got the 2 parts of the story mixed up?
Cheeping out on a fix will usually mean you do it over again and in this case take the motor out, if that crud gets mixed in the oil and end up in the bearings.