Took a look inside my hemi

[Wild one]

This Piston scuffing caused the scratched cylinder wall and the cross hatching is miminal.

I only like short skirts on the Ladies!!!



View attachment 543424

That depends on the lady,i've seen a few gals in Wally World that'd look better in a Hazmat suit then they do in short skirts

 

[Xsen]

Are you sure your cylinder measurements are metric or standard. .01 mm out of round or tapered would be considered OK.

FWIW, here's the factory manual for 2014 MY Ram 1500:


The 0.0076 mm does convert to 0.0003 in, so unless they missed the decimal in both, that's the requirement.

The taper specs are much more lenient, and I've heard the same from the engine builders. All things considered if the 0.02-0.03 mm was the taper - they would advise against boring the block. But for the out-of-round - No, can't do.

 

[Wild one]

FWIW, here's the factory manual for 2014 MY Ram 1500:
View attachment 543430

The 0.0076 mm does convert to 0.0003 in, so unless they missed the decimal in both, that's the requirement.

The taper specs are much more lenient, and I've heard the same from the engine builders. All things considered if the 0.02-0.03 mm was the taper - they would advise against boring the block. But for the out-of-round - No, can't do.

Aw hell you can compensate the out of round,by squeezing the pistons in a vise till they don't rock anymore,lol Hokay i'll admit as broke ass kids we did some wild $h!t and got away with it,lol. In high school we ball honed a few engines,and squeezed the pistons till they were semi tight in the bore,and then beat the hell out the engine.Some had a heathly appetite for oil,but they usually ran for quite awhile afterwards

 

[crackerjack1957]

Seems they have tightened the tolerances since I have been out of the game.....LoL
I do know they have a production tolerance & a wear tolerance.
Also you cannot get that round without torque plates.

 

[Kootbiker]

FWIW, here's the factory manual for 2014 MY Ram 1500:
View attachment 543430

The 0.0076 mm does convert to 0.0003 in, so unless they missed the decimal in both, that's the requirement.

The taper specs are much more lenient, and I've heard the same from the engine builders. All things considered if the 0.02-0.03 mm was the taper - they would advise against boring the block. But for the out-of-round - No, can't do.

That must be quite the boring bar used to get a cylinder that round.

 

[Xsen]

Can't say I've built a hundred engines, but to me that 0.0076 sounds weird too. We'll see, once the pistons get here.

BTW, I haven't seen a DIY instruction on taking out the engine here. Should I do a write-up?

 

[Burla]

Can't say I've built a hundred engines, but to me that 0.0076 sounds weird too. We'll see, once the pistons get here.

BTW, I haven't seen a DIY instruction on taking out the engine here. Should I do a write-up?

hells yeah

 

[Dodge 1500 4X4]

Ordered the +0.25 mm pistons set yesterday, will start working with the block once they arrive.

Thats a good oversize number, a light bore on the cylinder walls, and you should be good to go, make sure you replace all bearings, mains, rods, cam, and check the lifter bores.

 

[djhartm]

Seriously doubt the damage was the result of lightweight oil.

Most likely the previous owner neglected it and/or didn't maintain the oil level.

Even with that, 200k miles ain't bad.

Very cool tear down & write up!

 

[DC Tradesman]

The oil’s these days are excellent in many respects BUT the EPA standards removed friction inhibitors. Use Arch Oil additives or something like Amsoil.

 

[Hagar1]

That piston has the hallmarks of poor or negligent maintenance. I have a engine in my garage with a lot of miles but was serviced decently. The patch is still on the pistons.
In the case of my engine, the cam died from plugged oil galleries. Some oils are just better than others.

 

[rosco11]

Hey everyone,

Thought I'd share some thoughts and experience that I have recently gained. After all, I still love the forum format.

So in the beginning of April one of my two Rams has very suddenly developed a strong ticking noise. The noise was very clearly audible, metallic and generally had a valvetrain frequency. Looking at the engine, it did sound like coming from the even side. So I thought the obvious thought and went to order a set of lifters, a new cam and a gasket set. I ceased driving the truck on the very same day.

Before actually taking the engine apart, I went and took off the valve cover on the even side, and there it was - intake rocker of the 6th cylinder and it's rod had huge play. So I deduced that the roller on this lifter has broken, hence the sudden noise development, and the lifter is sliding on the cam lobe, destroying it.

Now, the choice was whether to fix everything without taking the engine out of the truck, or take the engine out and enjoy the luxury of easy access to every bolt and nut. I remebered someone posting here that even with all the effort required to take the engine out - it was well worth it, so I thought this was the right way to go. Besides the obvious lifter/cam job, the plan was to have both heads re-conditioned at the machine shop. Plus, as this engine already had at least 200k miles on it - I figured it could not hurt to measure the cylinders. I was wrong, it could hurt.

Long story short, it took me about 26 hours to take the engine out in a small DIY shop. This was my first experience of this kind, so maybe things can be done quicker, but I played safe.

View attachment 543302

Then the heads and the oil pan were removed and it was time for the pistons. And the pain.

View attachment 543303

All eight are more or less like this.

200k miles or not, this much damage was definitely unexpected. The block looked a bit better.

View attachment 543304

View attachment 543305

These scratches on the cylinder walls are very shallow and could be easily cured, but actually measuring the cylinders destroyed all hope - 5 out of 8 cylinders are about 0.02 - 0.03 mm out-of-round. Factory manual states that the max out-of-round is 0.0076 mm.

The bright side - all bearings, including the cam, are in great shape, no signs of wear. The engine was showing good oil pressure too.

A few thoughts on what could cause the damage. I bought this truck used, so I assume it had been using the factory recommended low viscosity oil. Maybe it was overheated or close to overheating at some point in its life, maybe it was using low-octane fuel, that creates higher temperature during combustion and the pistons were locally overheated. In any case, I really believe that this was the very moment when the oil should have been there to protect the components, but the eco-ish W20 oil was not designed for that. All the more reason for the 6.4 engines (which are likely to see more stress and load) to have strict 0W40 only recommendation.

This engine block will be repaired, and the new oversize pistons will go in, along with the new cam and lifters, reconditioned heads and new exhaust studs. All in all I plan to keep this truck for long time.

Now here are my questions:

1) While looking for similar cases I found that it's not that common in the hemi world. Maybe it's just my bad luck. If anyone here has opened their high mileage 5.7 - what were your pistons like?
2) What are your thoughts on what could have caused this damage?

Funny thing, if not for the lifter and the tick - I won't have ever thought of looking into the cylinders. There was no smoke, no noticeable oil level changes, maybe a bit too noisу on a cold start (but hey, it's a pushrod V8), and when the exhaust stud broke off - it could be heard under load. Other than this - the engine was just what you'd expect it to be.

Oh and yeah, the cam:
View attachment 543306

I would bet good money the truck overheated, big time, at some point before you owned it. That said, i would hve done it the easy way and it would probably have cost less. I would have bought a longblock and swapped it out. But i am lazy like that.

 

[Xsen]

Here comes another long-read for y'all.

Soooooo.

It sure took a while to get the truck together. The engine was ready around the beginning of August, but then life happened and I had no chance of installing the engine into the poor thing. This weekend I've finally managed to get everything ready.

The engine rebuild included:
- new oversize pistons (Mahle +0.25) with pins & rings
- boring and honing the block per new pistons specs
- reconditioning for both cylinder heads: valves, oil seals, mating surfaces, etc.
- reconditioning for both exhaust manifolds, and stud replacement
- new Mopar lifters with MDS
- a new Melling cam with OE specs
- a full gasket set, incl. front and rear oil seals

All crank bearings were good, and I kept the stock rods.

It took me about 2.5 days from putting the engine on a crane, to starting it, but I was in no rush, just assembled everything step by step, making sure I didn't skip or forget anything.

All in all putting the engine back can be done solo, but two is better, as aligning the block with the transmission might be tricky if you're on your own. Also, I took some time to wash the engine compartment beforehand, so it's mostly working with clean parts.

And I definitely vote for disassembling the front end completely before starting any sort of an engine job beyond intake manifold removal. It sure takes a few hours to get things off and then put them back together, but it would save you tons of time and effort while actually working on the engine, even if you're not taking it out of the truck.

Here's where we started:


And this is where we stopped before reassembling the front end:


Onward to the next chapter.

I initially thought that I'd pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine till I see some oil pressure. So I hooked up a second battery and started cranking. After four attempts, the needle on the dash never moved, so I also connected my scanner to see whether the pressure was changing, and did two more cranking sessions (making pauses to cool down the starter motor, of course). No pressure yet. Then again this engine is cranking at about 130-140 rpm, maybe it's just not enough for the oil pump. Well then, the fuse was back in, and the scanner set to recording the log.

This is what it looked like:

5.7 Hemi startup after rebuild

Engine seized after a few seconds.

youtu.be

Here's what the log has recorded during these few seconds:
- short cranking and then ignition, the RPM goes up to 1450, then drops to about 700 and goes up to about 1100 again. No oil pressure yet.
- RPM gradually dropping lower and lower, oil pressure goes up.
- engine gradually stops (it was fast but not instant), oil pressure was at 35 kPa (5 psi) when it died. Funny thing, that's the minimal oil pressure according to factory specs.

After these few seconds the engine is seized. A 3 ft breaker bar won't move it in any direction, neither clockwise, nor counter-clockwise.

Took off the starter motor to see whether it was overheated and shot. Nope, no luck here, it spins just fine.

What I know for sure:
- the engine won't turn
- the starter is okay
- the bolts that hold the flex-plate to the torque converter are okay
- there are no extra holes in the block
- the engine was rotating all right before starting it, both by hand and by the starter motor. Compression was there and it felt like a normal engine in every way.

What I don't know for sure: what the heck happened in there, that killed it in a few seconds? We've been trying to guess and no version sounds plausible enough.

The truck will go assembled to the place and the guys who did the rebuild (at their expense), and I will definitely share the results and the causes, but if you're up for a guessing game - share your thoughts...

Stay tuned.

 

[Wild one]

No O-ring or buggered O-ring on the pick-up tube,or completely missing pick-up tube

 

[Grams]

The cross-hatch in the cyl wall is normal and intentional. It is created at new-engine build for the purpose seating piston rings. The fact they are still visible is evidence of low wear and good lubrication.

The oil pick up tube issue seems likely, however no mention was made of the oil pump re-build. If it had lost it’s prime…and not reassembled with light grease…and the engine not “pre-lubed” (via the oil pressure sense-port) …then it was not properly prepared for start.

I’m very sorry for the disappointment the OP must have.

 

[06 Dodge]

My guess crank shaft seized up, not sure why ya didn't roll in new crank bearing and be sure that all bearings had a good cote of lubriplate or some other type of assembly lube used...

 

[Wild one]

My guess crank shaft seized up, not sure why ya didn't roll in new crank bearing and be sure that all bearings had a good cote of lubriplate or some other type of assembly lube used...

The way it quit i'd guess a bearing locked up to,but if he'd used any pre-assembly lube on the bearings it should have ran a bit longer then it did,so i'm guessing it went together dry with-out anything lubing the crank and bearings.
Hopefully the shop gets it figured out for him,but i wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't need a new crank,or at the very least a reground crank and new under sized bearings now.

 

[skates15]

My guess crank shaft seized up, not sure why ya didn't roll in new crank bearing and be sure that all bearings had a good cote of lubriplate or some other type of assembly lube used...

That was also my first guess as it seized so quick and yes, to new bearings.

 

[Xsen]

No O-ring or buggered O-ring on the pick-up tube,or completely missing pick-up tube

Yeah, but it did pick up the oil pressure at the end, so I think at least the pickup tube should be there. The O-ring was replaced with a new one.

The oil pick up tube issue seems likely, however no mention was made of the oil pump re-build. If it had lost it’s prime…and not reassembled with light grease…and the engine not “pre-lubed” (via the oil pressure sense-port) …then it was not properly prepared for start.

I’m very sorry for the disappointment the OP must have.

Unsure, whether they opened the oil pump, prior to lifter failure the oil pressure was excellent. Point taken with the pre-lube idea, I even have an electric oil pump just for the task. This will definitely be done on the next start. And I appreciate the сompassion, thanks! Not really disappointed here, rather unpleasantly surprised. But oh well, everything has already happened.

My guess crank shaft seized up, not sure why ya didn't roll in new crank bearing and be sure that all bearings had a good cote of lubriplate or some other type of assembly lube used...

Don't want to sound like I'm trying to talk my way out of this , but... All bearings were in perfect shape. The journals were polished. If this gets disassembled again - I'll throw in the new bearings.

Had an idea thrown at me yesterday - there was one truck that stalled on the highway and had to be towed to a shop, where they also couldn't turn the crank. It turned out to be a failed and seized water pump, however rare this may happen. This does explain slow rpm drop... but I took the belt off, and everything besides the crank spins just fine.

What I don't get is - okay, dry bearings or at least bearings with a thin oil film. 5 seconds of full cold runtime, and it was hardly making any torque as the fuel rail still had air in it. I refuse to believe that this is enough to destroy the bearings. To seize, as I understand, it needs to spin the bearing and tear the lock to put one bearing half on top of the other. Not to mention that it needs enough clearance for two full-thick bearing plates to be stuck together. I can't see this happening during 5 seconds @ about 1000 rpm. Scratches on the bearing surface - there's a good chance for those. But seizure...

Think of the scrapyard engines, that may spend months and years sitting. When you buy one they usually won't let you take it apart for inspection, but rather start it up to see if it's running at all. And most of the time it would start and run. Although the oil has not been pumped through it for a long time.

 

[dieselscout80]

I saw an alternator (90s GM 5.7L) locked up tight to the point the engine wouldn’t turn over with a socket and breaker bar on the damper.