What is the best DEF/EGR delete kit?

[Choupique]

The tuners I use are professionals

No they aren't. The people who write the software for Ram are professionals. The people who write delete tunes don't have anywhere near the resources needed to test and validate their work. They have a sample size of a handful of trucks with maybe a few hundred thousand miles total of testing. When you read about hot shot trucks with 500,000 miles on them, they are never deleted. When you hear of blown up transmissions and blown headgaskets, they are always deleted.

Que the guys with a sample size of one and maybe 100,000 miles raining the anecdotes.

You guys are taking an absurdly expensive vehicle and trusting its driveline to a guy who isn't even reading parameters that aren't on the can network. You're helping incite the federal government to do something about it. It's a terrible idea in 2024. If yall think the EPA is never going to come down on the individual owners, you're nuts.

There is no tune "maintenance" required what so ever, Load it and drive.

You trust that tune, that tuner, and the associated hardware to never give you any trouble for the life of the truck? Never going to fail an ECM? Never going to have an issue with the programmer 20 years down the road? Its a dumb risk to take.

20 years from now your gas truck will be in the junk yard so what's your point?

No it won't. It still has the full support of the OEM, is not in the EPA's crosshairs, and does not have hack modifications done to it.

 

[mtnrider]

No they aren't. The people who write the software for Ram are professionals. The people who write delete tunes don't have anywhere near the resources needed to test and validate their work. They have a sample size of a handful of trucks with maybe a few hundred thousand miles total of testing. When you read about hot shot trucks with 500,000 miles on them, they are never deleted. When you hear of blown up transmissions and blown headgaskets, they are always deleted.

Que the guys with a sample size of one and maybe 100,000 miles raining the anecdotes.

You guys are taking an absurdly expensive vehicle and trusting its driveline to a guy who isn't even reading parameters that aren't on the can network. You're helping incite the federal government to do something about it. It's a terrible idea in 2024. If yall think the EPA is never going to come down on the individual owners, you're nuts.



You trust that tune, that tuner, and the associated hardware to never give you any trouble for the life of the truck? Never going to fail an ECM? Never going to have an issue with the programmer 20 years down the road? Its a dumb risk to take.



No it won't. It still has the full support of the OEM, is not in the EPA's crosshairs, and does not have hack modifications done to it.

You are just grasping at straws now and have NO idea how any of this works...

Nice try but I think everyone sees through your paranoia postings but feel free to continue to deep a deeper hole if you like.

.

 

[2003F350]

I mean he's not wrong about the amount of testing a factory stock truck has. He's also not wrong about how the sheer amount of deleted/tuned trucks that are out there, and how they've found their way into the crosshairs of the EPA (it's been going on for a long time now, they've been cracking down on vehicle modifications for a LONG time).

I'm not arguing that prices on these components are fair, because in my opinion they're not. It sucks that they're so incredibly expensive...however, for every truck you hear about having issues, there are hundreds, if not thousands, that will never experience the issues. It's a symptom of mass production.

That said the risk is completely on the owner, because as we all know and have experienced in the past, aftermarket companies come and go. Many of the companies I used to work with for my old 3800 cars have moved on and aren't building much, if anything for them anymore, IF they're still in business. If I wanted parts for them, it's junkyards, Jegs, or Summit to get any kind of support today. Several of the companies who supported mods for 6.0 PSDs quit making parts even while I still had a couple 6.0's. Shortly before I got rid of them there were only a handful of companies building aftermarket FICMs and such for them.

The risk is on the owner, and how much support you want down the road. Dealers are going to shy away from deleted trucks - it's getting to be not worth their hassle, even if the issue you need their help with is unrelated to deleting/tuning the truck. Independent shops are hit or miss, and quality diesel shops are spread out - the best two in my state are about 300 miles apart by road. If you're okay with that kind of support, then by all means go for it. If you want to be able to pull into any Ram dealer and get your truck serviced, it's likely better to leave it stock.

 

[Choupique]

have NO idea how any of this works.

I know exactly how it works, and I know every time I pipe up about deletes being a bad idea the deletebros come raining out of the rafters defending their bad decisions, with their sample size of 1 truck and a handful of months on the road.

How exactly does somebody research a tuner? Do they show you their testing and validation work or do you get to talk to maybe a couple of customers with a few thousand miles who's trucks run so much better now? Do they run test cycles in a test cell? Do they even bother to monitor anything going on in there other than A/F ratios and what it sounds like? Do you get to talk to the guy who has a mystery check engine light he can't get rid of because the guy who wrote the tune got fined into oblivion? Do you think the EPA isn't sitting on his customer roll for whenever they get the resources to go after them?

It's a downright stupid thing to do these days and I'm on a mission to get people to realize it.

 

[nlambert182]

I've bought kits from Diesel OPS and Tuner Depot. The most recent was TD. I've typically ran an H&S Minimaxx on all of my previous Rams and have never had an issue with it over tens of thousands of miles on each truck. The key thing that is more important than anything is not to turn it up as tempting as it seems. When I delete, it's out of necessity. Stock HP tune and no trans tune. No smoke, minimal increase in sound (I install an AeroXL muffler to keep the noise down), and if I didn't just tell you it was deleted, you really wouldn't know it.

The Ram dealer serviced two of my deleted trucks with no questions asked, so not all will shy away from them. It largely depends on your state. Alabama has no emissions testing requirements so most ignore it.

All that said, there's always a risk so do your homework first and plan accordingly. In a lot of the southeast it's a non-issue. Dealers here still readily buy and sell deleted trucks (I've shown this in another thread on the forum). When the emissions equipment fails on this 2500, it will go under the knife as well but not until.

 

[jabisout]

DEF does nothing for the evironment. It only controls how and when the diesel black smoke comes out. It is nothing more than a BS thing that hides the black smoke. My sensor for DEF acted up and I got notified 60 miles till 5 MPH speed limit, okay a quick check for the part and NO one has it. 60-90 days out before I could get a new one, I got lucky and cleaned it and it started working again. I will tell you this if a lady or a 16 year old is driving a truck someday and gets kidnapped or run over because the EPA decided they didn't like black smoke, the EPA should be put in jail. I appreciate a clear sky but all this stuff is designed to control the people, we the people are supposed to be in control not them.

 

[tron67j]

DEF does nothing for the evironment. It only controls how and when the diesel black smoke comes out. It is nothing more than a BS thing that hides the black smoke. My sensor for DEF acted up and I got notified 60 miles till 5 MPH speed limit, okay a quick check for the part and NO one has it. 60-90 days out before I could get a new one, I got lucky and cleaned it and it started working again. I will tell you this if a lady or a 16 year old is driving a truck someday and gets kidnapped or run over because the EPA decided they didn't like black smoke, the EPA should be put in jail. I appreciate a clear sky but all this stuff is designed to control the people, we the people are supposed to be in control not them.

And the ignorance of how the system works continues. You obviously haven't researched this; if you had you would understand how the components of the fluid are administered into the exhaust to separate the NOx into harmless nitrogen and H²0. This isn't a deep state conspiracy, although the diatribe against is baseless rhetoric. I am not at all arguing why people do it nor that it is the best technology to solve the problem, but to randomly blurt out that this does nothing for the environment just takes any credibility right out of the equation.

 

[jabisout]

And the ignorance of how the system works continues. You obviously haven't researched this; if you had you would understand how the components of the fluid are administered into the exhaust to separate the NOx into harmless nitrogen and H²0. This isn't a deep state conspiracy, although the diatribe against is baseless rhetoric. I am not at all arguing why people do it nor that it is the best technology to solve the problem, but to randomly blurt out that this does nothing for the environment just takes any credibility right out of the equation.

Please if you know so much about it explain in details how it improves the environment, as it decreases the fuel economy and causes everyone to burn more fuel. My original 98 - 5.9 cummins got 21-25 miles per gallon and at best I get 18 mpg on this wonderful new 6.7 diesel I currently have. If you do the math that is a decrease in efficiency of over 30% more fuel, makes sense burn more fuel which goes into the air. But, please explain how it is okay to leave someone stranded on the road without any parts available to fix it?

 

[nlambert182]

DEF does nothing for the evironment. It only controls how and when the diesel black smoke comes out. It is nothing more than a BS thing that hides the black smoke. My sensor for DEF acted up and I got notified 60 miles till 5 MPH speed limit, okay a quick check for the part and NO one has it. 60-90 days out before I could get a new one, I got lucky and cleaned it and it started working again. I will tell you this if a lady or a 16 year old is driving a truck someday and gets kidnapped or run over because the EPA decided they didn't like black smoke, the EPA should be put in jail. I appreciate a clear sky but all this stuff is designed to control the people, we the people are supposed to be in control not them.

Obviously I have no issue with whether or not someone wants to delete their trucks but this is nonsense. DEF coupled with the emission system does provide cleaner emissions. It doesn't hide black smoke. However, it comes at a cost. Reduced reliability due to more complex systems, potential for a vehicle to be down for long periods of time waiting on parts, etc... Some people can afford that and some cannot afford to be down for long periods of time. My personal opinion is to allow people to choose for themselves. Not everyone is going to choose an emissions free truck, but some will.

The US Gov purchases emissions exempt trucks that are void of the EGR/DEF/DPF systems from the factory, so I question why they don't follow their own requirements.

 

[nlambert182]

Please if you know so much about it explain in details how it improves the environment, as it decreases the fuel economy and causes everyone to burn more fuel. My original 98 - 5.9 cummins got 21-25 miles per gallon and at best I get 18 mpg on this wonderful new 6.7 diesel I currently have. If you do the math that is a decrease in efficiency of over 30% more fuel, makes sense burn more fuel which goes into the air. But, please explain how it is okay to leave someone stranded on the road without any parts available to fix it?

He just explained how it helps the environment. There is no argument to be made that it doesn't produce a cleaner exhaust. It absolutely does. For my personal use case, I cannot confidently determine that the cost of the added maintenance is worth the fractional improvement that my truck's emissions system has on the world as a whole.

It does decrease fuel economy to a degree, but I wouldn't say 30%. Heck... my 2018 is getting 18.5mpg city and over 22 mpg highway. A lot comes into play when you're talking fuel economy. Quality of fuel, weight of the truck, gearing, tires, etc...

If you want a fair comparison on mpg, you HAVE to compare a 6.7 to a 6.7 with the exact same specs, not a 6.7 to a 5.9. They are not the same thing.

My 2016 3500 got 16 city/18 hwy pre delete. I got 18.5 city and 21.5 hwy post delete. That's a 2.5 mpg increase or about 12%.

 

[2003F350]

He just explained how it helps the environment. There is no argument to be made that it doesn't produce a cleaner exhaust. It absolutely does. For my personal use case, I cannot confidently determine that the cost of the added maintenance is worth the fractional improvement that my truck's emissions system has on the world as a whole.

It does decrease fuel economy to a degree, but I wouldn't say 30%. Heck... my 2018 is getting 18.5mpg city and over 22 mpg highway. A lot comes into play when you're talking fuel economy. Quality of fuel, weight of the truck, gearing, tires, etc...

If you want a fair comparison on mpg, you HAVE to compare a 6.7 to a 6.7 with the exact same specs, not a 6.7 to a 5.9. They are not the same thing.

My 2016 3500 got 16 city/18 hwy pre delete. I got 18.5 city and 21.5 hwy post delete. That's a 2.5 mpg increase or about 12%.

I'm rolling at about 24 average, all rural highway except the few towns I go through, on my '22 full stock. The instantaneous is routinely bouncing off 30 (I am not foolish enough to think I'll ever see that for average). I also usually go 1k+ miles before I need to refill my DEF.

Truly not sure where everyone thinks the 6.7 is getting worse mileage because of the emissions. Sure it isn't reaching its full potential, but it's also a bigger motor than a 5.9 so it is going to take more fuel just to turn it over, not to mention move its extra weight. I'm quite certain the emissions aren't hurting it as much as it just plain being a bigger motor.

 

[Tunaman]

I would never do it. The majority of ones deleted have problems later on.

 

[Choupique]

not sure where everyone thinks the 6.7 is getting worse mileage because of the emissions

To be fair, it is slightly worse than a non-emissions regulated version. The regens hurt the average and the exhaust backpressure from the DPF increases the pumping losses. Otherwise, the fuel economy from the factory trucks post 2017ish is basically as good as it can be. Most people see marginal if any increase on the newest trucks after deleting. It's no longer a valid justification like it was when EGR/DPF only trucks were sold and getting 12mpg.

The SCR system helps fuel economy massively. The engine doesn't have to run a stupid timing scheme with tons of EGR to control NOx. It's only running any EGR at all to control DEF consumption and help with thermal management. The urea and catalyst deal with the NOx all on their own and the engine doesn't have to worry about it at all. Cummins makes some tier 4 engines that don't even have an EGR system on them. If the EPA would chill out with their crazy enforcement requirements for system operation, it'd be even more reliable than it already is. It's a great way to dramatically decrease NOx emissions at no engine performance cost at all.

 

[Choupique]

The US Gov purchases emissions exempt trucks that are void of the EGR/DEF/DPF systems from the factory

That'd be the holy grail. I think those vehicles run versions of industrial tier 3 calibrations, which do have a fair amount of in-cylinder emissions control going on.

 

[nlambert182]

I would never do it. The majority of ones deleted have problems later on.

Says who?

People who crank up the HP have problems later on. I've never met anyone with a deleted truck whose had issues that left them stock, myself included. You're not changing anything on a stock tune other than telling the ECM that the emissions equipment is still there and functioning correctly.

 

[nlambert182]

That'd be the holy grail. I think those vehicles run versions of industrial tier 3 calibrations, which do have a fair amount of in-cylinder emissions control going on.

The ones I'm talking about are 100% zero emissions equipment. This is one example. These are 6.7 Powerstrokes. When they arrived, there is a sticker on the fan shroud that says emissions exempt. They are driven on the street frequently.

 

[Choupique]

You're not changing anything on a stock tune other than telling the ECM that the emissions equipment is still there and functioning correctly.

You have to change the combustion recepie a little bit since it isn't running EGR anymore, and that's where my gripes come in. It isnt as simple as switching stuff off. There isn't sound engine calibration development work happening with delete tunes because nobody with deep enough pockets to do that is going to risk the wrath of the federal government.

 

[Jbinramona]

I am appalled at how rude some “senior member” have been on this thread. I thought there were rules about such thing on this forum. You people should be ashamed of yourselves for you poor behavior toward other members.

 

[davisphase10]

After hearing all the options I'm opting to leave it as us. Thanks for all the knowledge and support!

 

[nlambert182]

I am appalled at how rude some “senior member” have been on this thread. I thought there were rules about such thing on this forum. You people should be ashamed of yourselves for you poor behavior toward other members.

What do you consider rude? Opinions are opinions and it's just text on a screen. There's no way to read inflection, so no need to get upset over text. It could be meant totally differently than how you read it.