Unhappy with 1500 towing. Need Help

[ramffml]

So then tell us…. If what you say is so true

It's not "if", it's not my opinion, it's a mathematical certainty.

The two trucks have a different tow rating on paper, due to the 3.92 being able to accelerate faster from a dead stop. Two of the J2807 tow rating tests deal specifically with 0 to 30 and 0 to 60.

So yes if your complaint is that you can't accelerate fast enough from a dead stop then I would say the 3.92 is the better option vs the 3.21

But that's not the complaint, read the first post, he's talking about RPMs at 62 mph and how trucks are passing him, the 3.92 won't fix squat in that case.

Take the 3.21. Remove the 8th gear and replace it with a deeper first gear. Boom, now you have the 3.92. You still have 8 gears but the other gears in between haven't changed, you still have the same towing performance on the highway (which remember the context of this thread, is the complaint of the OP).

Finally, if you actually had any experience towing with a 3.21, you'd probably discover that the 3.21 has no problem in accelerating from a dead stop. It has tons of power there. Where my truck feels less powerful is on-ramps and passing truckers up a hill, both scenarios you are well out of first and second gear so there is no difference between 3.21 and 3.92 at that point.

You guys get hung up on the 3000+ tow rating difference without understanding why and how that rating was determined. It's all about the first gear. If you're not in first gear (and somewhat second gear), the tow rating is identical at that point.

 

[392DevilDog]

Everyone here has been great with their suggestions and recommendations. Several have said that I have the wrong truck for that trailer. That is obvious to me now. I’ve been spending my time shopping and comparing 3/4 ton trucks online. Ram, Ford and GMC. They are pretty scarce right now and ordering one the way I want it will really cut into the summer camping season by the time it gets delivered. I’m really having a hard time with the fact that the 2500’s are all made in Mexico. It’s my issue. I know that it might not bother many of you but with a big purchase like that I want to take care of American Union workers. I don’t know if I’ll find a truck to suite me but I feel that our travels will really be limited with my current Longhorn.

Obviously it is your decision. But the trailer you have would work great with a Bighorn, even a lightly optioned Laramie.

Get rid of Rambox and MFt and panoroof.

Get 3.92 gears. If you can not handle the HEMI spinning try the EcoDiesel.

A 2500 truck brings a whole new list of questions and personal quirks.

Unless you are planning in getting a bigger trailer soon...look at a less optioned 1500. Heck...right now you might make some money for your camping trips.

To each there own. Have fun. Owning trucks and going camping seems like a great time...but it isn't for everyone.

Happy Camping.

 

[corneileous]

Everyone here has been great with their suggestions and recommendations. Several have said that I have the wrong truck for that trailer. That is obvious to me now. I’ve been spending my time shopping and comparing 3/4 ton trucks online. Ram, Ford and GMC. They are pretty scarce right now and ordering one the way I want it will really cut into the summer camping season by the time it gets delivered. I’m really having a hard time with the fact that the 2500’s are all made in Mexico. It’s my issue. I know that it might not bother many of you but with a big purchase like that I want to take care of American Union workers. I don’t know if I’ll find a truck to suite me but I feel that our travels will really be limited with my current Longhorn.

If you were pulling a trailer that was over 10,000 pounds loaded then I’d say probably you do have the wrong truck for the job but considering what you’re towing, the only thing holding you back is the ring and pinion in your diff(s). You could simply do a gear change but the only thing bad about that is “technically” this doesn’t increase your trailer tow rating when in so many ways it actually should because when you look at the other trucks, that’s why the tow rating is what it is and two, if you have a four-wheel-drive then you really need to upgrade both your front and your rear diff and the only problem with that is the fact that they welded the front ring gear to the differential so you pretty much have to replace the whole front diff whereas just a ring and pinion change in the back.

 

[Elkman]

Tow Haul mode is designed for use when pulling a load of roughly 80% of the GCWR of the truck. Your 5,000 plus trailer certainly qualifies and one needs to factor in the great amount of air drag with a travel trailer that makes the engine and transmission work that much harder.

For any gas engine powered vehicle that I have bought for towing the gears were 4.10 (standard with all Toyota pickups by the way). I had 3.73 with my last 2500 diesel truck. The manufacturers all put 3.21 gears so as to maximize the mpg with the EPA fuel economy testing and this testing is done indoors and no tow load involved so it is meaningless.

Use Tow Haul mode 100% with your trailer attached and consider changing out the gears for your truck. Cheaper to pay $1000 for the swap than to buy a replacement truck as the sales tax alone will be much more than that.

If it was my truck and I had screwed up with too tall gears I would also be checking out my options for putting in a locking differential at the same time. The LSD now being used by the truck manufacturers is a fraud as it only uses the ABS sensors to apply more braking to the faster spinning wheel.

 

[CaptOchs]

Several responses advise the OP to stay in tow mode with 3.21 diff. Is the same advise applicable for 3.92?

Yes! I even use cruise control unless climbing a steep grade.

 

[corneileous]

It's not "if", it's not my opinion, it's a mathematical certainty.

The two trucks have a different tow rating on paper, due to the 3.92 being able to accelerate faster from a dead stop. Two of the J2807 tow rating tests deal specifically with 0 to 30 and 0 to 60.

So yes if your complaint is that you can't accelerate fast enough from a dead stop then I would say the 3.92 is the better option vs the 3.21

Mathematics or not, you’re still having to run your transmission in a lower gear to compensate for the ultra high rear end gear so yes, in a way, what you say is true but how is that gaining you anything when number one, I can get going quicker and number two, I can run my transmission a lot more in the higher gear than you so again, what exactly are you gaining?

But that's not the complaint, read the first post, he's talking about RPMs at 62 mph and how trucks are passing him, the 3.92 won't fix squat in that case.

Sure it will. No matter how much you argue against it, that 3.92 makes your powertrain not have to work as hard, plain and simple.

Take the 3.21. Remove the 8th gear and replace it with a deeper first gear. Boom, now you have the 3.92. You still have 8 gears but the other gears in between haven't changed, you still have the same towing performance on the highway (which remember the context of this thread, is the complaint of the OP).

Huh?…lol. Unless they actually use a different transmission for each truck you can’t just go tossing gears out of transmission just magically make it look like you just transformed your 321s to 392s. Not only that, it’s not gonna change the fact that the pinion is going to turn quicker against the 392 ring gear that has more teeth on it than it will on the 321 ring gear that doesn’t.

Finally, if you actually had any experience towing with a 3.21, you'd probably discover that the 3.21 has no problem in accelerating from a dead stop. It has tons of power there. Where my truck feels less powerful is on-ramps and passing truckers up a hill, both scenarios you are well out of first and second gear so there is no difference between 3.21 and 3.92 at that point.

I’ll take your word for it, I’m sure it probably doesn’t but that’s not the point. And no, I don’t have to tow with your truck to find out that I would much rather tow with my truck that has the gearing intended for towing.

You guys get hung up on the 3000+ tow rating difference without understanding why and how that rating was determined. It's all about the first gear. If you're not in first gear (and somewhat second gear), the tow rating is identical at that point.

I have no idea what you’re saying here. Again, tell us how that’s determined?

 

[ramffml]

Mathematics or not, you’re still having to run your transmission in a lower gear to compensate for the ultra high rear end gear so yes, in a way, what you say is true but how is that gaining you anything when number one, I can get going quicker and number two, I can run my transmission a lot more in the higher gear than you so again, what exactly are you gaining?

Who said anything about "gaining"? You're position is that the 3.21 is hurting his highway performance, I'm pointing out that your position is factually incorrect.

Sure it will. No matter how much you argue against it, that 3.92 makes your powertrain not have to work as hard, plain and simple.

This is incorrect as well and can go either way. For example, with my slightly lighter load I run in 6th, which is direct drive. Your truck would pull that load in 7th, which is overdrive and harder on your transmission. Or you'd have to gear limit to 6th in which case you're revving 400+ rpms higher than you need to be, wasting gas and building heat.

Huh?…lol. Unless they actually use a different transmission for each truck you can’t just go tossing gears out of transmission just magically make it look like you just transformed your 321s to 392s. Not only that, it’s not gonna change the fact that the pinion is going to turn quicker against the 392 ring gear that has more teeth on it than it will on the 321 ring gear that doesn’t.

This was obviously meant to illustrate the final gear ratios at the wheel, which is what matters, and not a literal explanation of the difference between the 3.21 and 3.92. Did you seriously think I was saying the transmission itself changes and not the rear end? Stop and think about what I'm writing, not what you hope I'm writing.

I’ll take your word for it, I’m sure it probably doesn’t but that’s not the point. And no, I don’t have to tow with your truck to find out that I would much rather tow with my truck that has the gearing intended for towing.

I have no idea what you’re saying here.

I can't write it any simpler than I have already.

 

[corneileous]

Who said anything about "gaining"? You're position is that the 3.21 is hurting his highway performance, I'm pointing out that your position is factually incorrect.

Ok, it may not technically be hurting his performance but it’s definitely causing him to go to different lengths and rely on other measures as to not totally feel the wrath of towing with that ultra-high rear end so being that is with the proper gears don’t have to do that, I’d say that’s gaining.

This is incorrect as well and can go either way. For example, with my slightly lighter load I run in 6th, which is direct drive. Your truck would pull that load in 7th, which is overdrive and harder on your transmission. Or you'd have to gear limit to 6th in which case you're revving 400+ rpms higher than you need to be, wasting gas and building heat.

No. If my transmission isn’t downshifting to and from 7th to 8th all the time, then it’s not too high of a gear. See how that works? Which is what I’ve been trying to tell you this whole time and even the last time is the fact that my truck doesn’t cause me to have to do all this weird stuff just to justify having to high of a rear gear.

This was obviously meant to illustrate the final gear ratios at the wheel, which is what matters, and not a literal explanation of the difference between the 3.21 and 3.92. Did you seriously think I was saying the transmission itself changes and not the rear end? Stop and think about what I'm writing, not what you hope I'm writing.



I can't write it any simpler than I have already.

I still don’t understand how you believe all this.

 

[ramffml]

Ok, it may not technically be hurting his performance but it’s definitely causing him to go to different lengths and rely on other measures as to not totally feel the wrath of towing with that ultra-high rear end so being that is with the proper gears don’t have to do that, I’d say that’s gaining.

No. His truck with the 3.21 is using the same RPMs and delivering the same torque/power at the wheels, as an otherwise equivalent 3.92 would at 62 mph. His "problem" as he describe it is not the 3.21, and it won't be changed in anyway by getting a 3.92, it's merely a misunderstanding on how N/A engines deliver power. It's a gasser and will need to rev high just like it would with the 3.92.

No. If my transmission isn’t downshifting to and from 7th to 8th all the time, then it’s not too high of a gear.

You can have a load that allows you to tow in overdrive without gear downshifting, but if you're towing that load in 7th I'll be towing that same load in 6th (your gear ratio is 3.2144, mine is 3.21, they are literally identical gear ratios, see how the math works?). Neither truck will be down/upshifting, but your transmission is under more stress than mine because you're towing in overdrive which is something that shouldn't be done (even though the engine itself can do it and doesn't need a downshift), and I'm in direct drive.

 

[corneileous]

No. His truck with the 3.21 is using the same RPMs and delivering the same torque/power at the wheels, as an otherwise equivalent 3.92 would at 62 mph. His "problem" as he describe it is not the 3.21, and it won't be changed in anyway by getting a 3.92, it's merely a misunderstanding on how N/A engines deliver power. It's a gasser and will need to rev high just like it would with the 3.92.



You can have a load that allows you to tow in overdrive without gear downshifting, but if you're towing that load in 7th I'll be towing that same load in 6th (your gear ratio is 3.2144, mine is 3.21, they are literally identical gear ratios, see how the math works?). Neither truck will be down/upshifting, but your transmission is under more stress than mine because you're towing in overdrive which is something that shouldn't be done (even though the engine itself can do it and doesn't need a downshift), and I'm in direct drive.

I disagree. The 8 speed is an amazing transmission but I still think ram trucks knew what they were doing when they offered two different rear-end ratios for their trucks but if you still wanna be a stick in the mud and treat this like the 392 is just that redundant and that hell, let’s just make all the trucks 321 if it just absolutely doesn’t matter then I don’t know what more to say other than I digress. I think you’re just putting all of your argument on the sake of mathematics than actual real world results.

 

[Fediej]

If you are stuck on having a gas V8 engine, it will do the job but it will let everybody know within a 2-mile radius that it's doing its job. Gas V8s are loud attention ****** that need to let anyone who can hear that they are working hard even when they're not really working that hard. It doesn't matter if you have a half ton, 3 quarter ton, 1 ton or even bigger truck. For this exact reason I almost went with the 3.5 EcoBoost from Ford, But ultimately Ponied up for the 1500 EcoDiesel.

 

[ramffml]

I disagree. The 8 speed is an amazing transmission but I still think ram trucks knew what they were doing when they offered two different rear-end ratios for their trucks but if you still wanna be a stick in the mud and treat this like the 392 is just that redundant and that hell, let’s just make all the trucks 321 if it just absolutely doesn’t matter then I don’t know what more to say other than I digress. I think you’re just putting all of your argument on the sake of mathematics than actual real world results.

Did they know what they're doing when they foisted MDS upon us?

Ok that was tongue in cheek, and I agree with part of your sentiment; the 3.92 definitely has a place and I'm not trashing it in any way. It's effective in certain scenarios, but it's not a magic bullet and won't help in this specific case (highway performance).

It's great for rock crawling, for example. And yes if you want the absolute best in terms of 0 to 15 performance you will find it with the 3.92.

In the real world, while towing, I don't need more stoplight performance under WOT. I need passing/highway power, just like the OP, and that cannot be improved by using a 3.92.

 

[ramffml]

If you are stuck on having a gas V8 engine, it will do the job but it will let everybody know within a 2-mile radius that it's doing its job. Gas V8s are loud attention ****** that need to let anyone who can hear that they are working hard even when they're not really working that hard. It doesn't matter if you have a half ton, 3 quarter ton, 1 ton or even bigger truck. For this exact reason I almost went with the 3.5 EcoBoost from Ford, But ultimately Ponied up for the 1500 EcoDiesel.

Even the massive N/A 7.3 from Ford screams like crazy under load, all kinds of YT videos of it working hard at 3500 to 4500 RPMs.

I know that's what they do and where they build power, but like the OP I'm uncomfortable hearing that. It's a mindset, not a flaw with the truck. And I put question marks around the 5.7's ability to sustain that long term, as there are also plenty of videos on YT showing how badly these 5.7s heat up under heavy loads and hills. The 2500/6.4 can take it, it's a completely different engine and built much stronger than the 5.7 is.

 

[ramffml]

I disagree. The 8 speed is an amazing transmission but I still think ram trucks knew what they were doing when they offered two different rear-end ratios for their trucks but if you still wanna be a stick in the mud and treat this like the 392 is just that redundant and that hell, let’s just make all the trucks 321 if it just absolutely doesn’t matter then I don’t know what more to say other than I digress. I think you’re just putting all of your argument on the sake of mathematics than actual real world results.

One final comment;

The 3.92 is like a granny gear on the 3.21; nothing more, nothing less. As soon as you're out of first, that granny gear ceases to help you in any way.

You can sit on the highway at 62 mph and think to yourself "I got this super low granny gear it should help me" but it doesn't; you're lllooonnng out of first and it does nothing to help you now that you're not in that gear.

 

[Dave-B]

Today I picked up my Grand Design Imagine 2600rb. I’m a first time RV’r. I was incredibly disappointed as to how the 75 mile ride home went. It was all expressway and mostly flat (It is Illinois) and my truck rarely made it out of 5th gear! My truck is a 2020 Longhorn with a towing capacity of 8120 lbs with a max payload of 1770lbs. 5.7 Hemi with e torque and 3:21 gears. 8HP75 transmission. The trailer weighs 5800lbs dry and since it was new there was nothing loaded in the trailer yet. I used a weight distributing hitch, Equal-I-Zer brand.

At 62mph (with everyone passing me) in a 70mph limit, the truck was revving at 2700rpm’s in 5th gear. I did use tow haul to enter the expressway but turned it off once speed increased. There were a few times on a slight downgrade that the transmission shifted into 6th gear and one time coasting it briefly went into 7th gear but it was brief. The Electronic Range Select (ERS) was not engaged. Upshifting and downshifting were fine.
I have never had any problems mechanically with this truck and up until today (with exception of some Rambox latch problems) I have loved this Longhorn. The 5.7 has always been a good runner for me.

So, please, I’m looking for suggestions from experienced RV’rs as to what is going on here? Is the 3:21 gear the culprit? Did Ram overstate the towing capacity? Just because the truck’s frame and axles can physically carry the weight, maybe the transmission isn’t equipped for towing. I’m leery to add the usual weight of daily necessities for a trailer trip let alone hitting any hilly areas. After at $70K for a truck and another $40K for the trailer it quite disappointing. I’m desperately seeking experienced analyses.
Thanks in advance,
Hank

Hey Hank, Sorry you are not satisfied with how your 1500 tows. I ordered a 1500 Limited last summer only to discover the 3.21 was not optimal for towing so I cancelled that order and ordered a 1500 Limited with 3.92 axle ratio. Days before it arrived I figured out it did not have the payload (1,208 max) to tow a similar trailer (Imagine 2450RL) because I picked too many options (Ramboxes, e-torque, Multi-Function tailgate) so I sadly cancelled that order and luckily, found a 2019 Ram 2500 Limited similarly equipped as the 1500 I ordered. I just retired so we plan on taking a lot of trips with our trailer so this was best for us. If your truck is your daily driver and you are not going to spend most of the year towing you could talk to the dealer or a better option might be a 4x4 shop about changing our your differential with a bigger gear ratio. I did do a little research and it seemed like it was possible and not a ton of money. If you truck is a 4x4 I think they have to swap both differentials so that would double the cost but it is worth looking into it. I do miss the more comfortable ride of the 1500 but I do like having plenty of towing capacity and available payload. In summary, your 3 options are 1) do nothing and accept; "it is what it is, 2) replace differential(s), or 3) Sell and upgrade to a 2500. Hope this helps. Let us know what you decide.

 

[Bobby Lee Jr]

Today I picked up my Grand Design Imagine 2600rb. I’m a first time RV’r. I was incredibly disappointed as to how the 75 mile ride home went. It was all expressway and mostly flat (It is Illinois) and my truck rarely made it out of 5th gear! My truck is a 2020 Longhorn with a towing capacity of 8120 lbs with a max payload of 1770lbs. 5.7 Hemi with e torque and 3:21 gears. 8HP75 transmission. The trailer weighs 5800lbs dry and since it was new there was nothing loaded in the trailer yet. I used a weight distributing hitch, Equal-I-Zer brand.

At 62mph (with everyone passing me) in a 70mph limit, the truck was revving at 2700rpm’s in 5th gear. I did use tow haul to enter the expressway but turned it off once speed increased. There were a few times on a slight downgrade that the transmission shifted into 6th gear and one time coasting it briefly went into 7th gear but it was brief. The Electronic Range Select (ERS) was not engaged. Upshifting and downshifting were fine.
I have never had any problems mechanically with this truck and up until today (with exception of some Rambox latch problems) I have loved this Longhorn. The 5.7 has always been a good runner for me.

So, please, I’m looking for suggestions from experienced RV’rs as to what is going on here? Is the 3:21 gear the culprit? Did Ram overstate the towing capacity? Just because the truck’s frame and axles can physically carry the weight, maybe the transmission isn’t equipped for towing. I’m leery to add the usual weight of daily necessities for a trailer trip let alone hitting any hilly areas. After at $70K for a truck and another $40K for the trailer it quite disappointing. I’m desperately seeking experienced analyses.
Thanks in advance,
Hank

Check your payload, I have a Limited ,Sunroof, and my payload is really low. If we put two people in my truck and a little luggage we were over. Look at door sticker. Also the etorque, 4x4, 5.7, 3.92 , My camper was 4000 lb and it aways felt like the tail wagging the dog. Had equilizer hitch also. Sold Camper and have come to conclusion if you want to tow, get minimum a 2500.

 

[corneileous]

Did they know what they're doing when they foisted MDS upon us?

Ok that was tongue in cheek, and I agree with part of your sentiment; the 3.92 definitely has a place and I'm not trashing it in any way. It's effective in certain scenarios, but it's not a magic bullet and won't help in this specific case (highway performance).

Being facetious or not, they did know what they were doing with the MDS but I’m not putting that in the same classification as the low or high differential gears for their intended use. I know I don’t listen to a lot of the things the manufacturer or the dealer says but this is one of those that I do and they will tell you that the higher geared-trucks are for those who just want a truck without any real important need to have one and don’t tow anything and want maximum fuel mileage and the ones with the lower rear end gears are for the ones that expect to tow a heavy trailer.

And I’m not bashing the 3.21 but I still believe that if you’re gonna be pulling anything over 7000 pounds- just despite the 8000 pound tow rating that Ram gives the trucks with the higher gears, especially up in hilly or mountainous terrain that you need to do it with the more properly equipped truck. I’m not saying you can’t do it with the higher geared-truck but the lower geared one will always be the better choice just despite the fact that you think you’re doing OK mathematically as you’ll have to drive yours differently from how I drive mine.

In the real world, while towing, I don't need more stoplight performance under WOT. I need passing/highway power, just like the OP, and that cannot be improved by using a 3.92.

It’s not about being able to pass everything in sight or hit 0 to 60 in six seconds when you’re hooked up to a heavy trailer, it’s all about what makes it easier on your truck and your truck’s drive train and you can argue this all you want but no matter what words you use, no matter how you group them together and no matter what numbers you punch in a calculator, that 392 rear end IS and will always be easier to turn than the 321.

 

[corneileous]

One final comment;

The 3.92 is like a granny gear on the 3.21; nothing more, nothing less. As soon as you're out of first, that granny gear ceases to help you in any way.

You can sit on the highway at 62 mph and think to yourself "I got this super low granny gear it should help me" but it doesn't; you're lllooonnng out of first and it does nothing to help you now that you're not in that gear.

Again… The higher the ratio, the more effort it takes to turn in the lower the ratio, the easier it is to turn. I don’t know why that’s so hard for you to understand.

 

[ramffml]

Being facetious or not, they did know what they were doing with the MDS but I’m not putting that in the same classification as the low or high differential gears for their intended use. I know I don’t listen to a lot of the things the manufacturer or the dealer says but this is one of those that I do and they will tell you that the higher geared-trucks are for those who just want a truck without any real important need to have one and don’t tow anything and want maximum fuel mileage and the ones with the lower rear end gears are for the ones that expect to tow a heavy trailer.

And I’m not bashing the 3.21 but I still believe that if you’re gonna be pulling anything over 7000 pounds- just despite the 8000 pound tow rating that Ram gives the trucks with the higher gears, especially up in hilly or mountainous terrain that you need to do it with the more properly equipped truck. I’m not saying you can’t do it with the higher geared-truck but the lower geared one will always be the better choice just despite the fact that you think you’re doing OK mathematically as you’ll have to drive yours differently from how I drive mine.

It’s not about being able to pass everything in sight or hit 0 to 60 in six seconds when you’re hooked up to a heavy trailer, it’s all about what makes it easier on your truck and your truck’s drive train and you can argue this all you want but no matter what words you use, no matter how you group them together and no matter what numbers you punch in a calculator, that 392 rear end IS and will always be easier to turn than the 321.

Your argument is essentially this: because the 3.92 has better torque multiplication at 0mph, it therefore means a truck with 3.92 always has more torque at every MPH than a 3.21. This is factually incorrect. Until you understand this fact, nothing anybody writes will ever change your mind.

 

[Bricknhank]

If it was my truck and I had screwed up with too tall gears I would also be checking out my options for putting in a locking differential at the same time.

For what it’s worth I did not screw up with my purchase. I had no plans to have a travel trailer when I bought the truck. My wife of 42 years had passed away. She wasn’t an outdoor person. I met a woman (widow) that does like the outdoors and we got married. So we started talking and decided to take the dive into the RV world. I already had the truck but I no doubt didn’t research enough about the capabilities. That said, even though it’s going to be just the two of us I don’t think that I would have been comfortable in a much smaller trailer. Also, I do have the anti-spin differential, a $495 option. It won’t do much for my problem though unless I get bogged down in a swampy campsite. If you’re talking about a Detroit locker, no I don’t have that.
Hank