Fifth Wheels By Keystone For 1500

Tulecreeper · Feb 21, 2024

Capt Derek said:
Why would anyone tow anything with a half ton?

The two trucks I had before this, a Chevy and a Ford, were both 1/2-tons and I never had an issue. Of course, I never tried to tow anything more than about 80% of my towing/cargo cap, but that's because I've been doing it for 40 years and know better.

ramffml · Feb 21, 2024

Capt Derek said:
Why would anyone tow anything with a half ton?

Why aren't you towing with a semi?

Tulecreeper · Feb 21, 2024

ramffml said:
Why aren't you towing with a semi?

ramffml · Feb 21, 2024

nlambert182 · Feb 22, 2024

Every truck has its place as long as people are honest/realistic with the numbers and realistic with expectations up front. A bigger than necessary truck will not create a problem with towing a small trailer, but towing a large trailer with an undersized truck most definitely can.

2003F350 · Feb 22, 2024

ramffml said:
View attachment 537964

Okay but that's actually a REALLY good photoshop.

To the broader point, though, every vehicle has its limits, and while those limits are typically only enforced on COMMERCIALLY USED vehicles, they're still a good guide for non-commercial use. It's just plain not safe to tow 12k behind a half-ton truck. It's not safe to pull 25k behind a 3/4 ton truck. It's not safe to pull 34k behind a 1-ton truck that isn't properly equipped. Will it do it? Yeah, probably. Is the truck going to like it? No. Are you over on basically all of your ratings? 99% chance yes. Will it blow up when you put it in gear? No.

But what happens when someone cuts you off, or wipes out in front of you? Your brakes aren't designed to stop that much weight. Your suspension isn't designed to handle that much weight and your control is compromised. If you don't hurt someone, you'd be lucky. If you don't damage anything, you better go play the lotto or something.

Look, I'm all about people judging their own risks and acting accordingly. But when your actions start to impact the safety of others, I'm going to tell you that it's not a good idea, and that you really need to think twice about what you're doing.

ramffml · Feb 22, 2024

2003F350 said:
Okay but that's actually a REALLY good photoshop.

To the broader point, though, every vehicle has its limits, and while those limits are typically only enforced on COMMERCIALLY USED vehicles, they're still a good guide for non-commercial use. It's just plain not safe to tow 12k behind a half-ton truck. It's not safe to pull 25k behind a 3/4 ton truck. It's not safe to pull 34k behind a 1-ton truck that isn't properly equipped. Will it do it? Yeah, probably. Is the truck going to like it? No. Are you over on basically all of your ratings? 99% chance yes. Will it blow up when you put it in gear? No.

But what happens when someone cuts you off, or wipes out in front of you? Your brakes aren't designed to stop that much weight. Your suspension isn't designed to handle that much weight and your control is compromised. If you don't hurt someone, you'd be lucky. If you don't damage anything, you better go play the lotto or something.

Look, I'm all about people judging their own risks and acting accordingly. But when your actions start to impact the safety of others, I'm going to tell you that it's not a good idea, and that you really need to think twice about what you're doing.

You're completely missing the point.

One guy asked "why would anyone tow with a 1500" and there is nothing wrong with towing 8000 pounds in a half ton. He tows with a cummins, not a semi, because he doesn't need a semi to tow his load. Neither do you need a cummins to tow 8000 pounds comfortably. The 1500 has other advantages over a 3/4 ton when it comes to daily living so if you're not towing heavy you're better off in a half ton just like you're better off in a 3/4 ton than a semi.

2003F350 · Feb 22, 2024

ramffml said:
You're completely missing the point.

One guy asked "why would anyone tow with a 1500" and there is nothing wrong with towing 8000 pounds in a half ton. He tows with a cummins, not a semi, because he doesn't need a semi to tow his load. Neither do you need a cummins to tow 8000 pounds comfortably. The 1500 has other advantages over a 3/4 ton when it comes to daily living so if you're not towing heavy you're better off in a half ton just like you're better off in a 3/4 ton than a semi.

Having towed 8k with a half ton, I respectfully disagree. I am MUCH more comfortable having 8k behind my 2500 than I am having it behind a half ton.

As I said (and no I'm not missing the point), will a half ton do it? Yeah. Is it the best tool for the job? Not really, if you're doing it often I'd step up a truck. Is it going to blow up? No. Can it be done safely? Sure, if you're willing to take it easy and do everything in your power to stay out of sketchy situations.

The sad reality is that there are a LOT of people out there who don't understand these things, and don't know how to tow safely. Those people are the reason I advocate for stepping up a truck size if you're inexperienced. Better to have more than you need to keep you safe, than be riding the edge as an inexperienced driver and end up doing something that hurts a LOT of people.

ramffml · Feb 22, 2024

2003F350 said:
Having towed 8k with a half ton, I respectfully disagree.

Go ahead and disagree. Doesn't change a thing, these trucks can handle 8000 pounds perfectly well.

tron67j · Feb 22, 2024

2003F350 said:
Okay but that's actually a REALLY good photoshop.

To the broader point, though, every vehicle has its limits, and while those limits are typically only enforced on COMMERCIALLY USED vehicles, they're still a good guide for non-commercial use. It's just plain not safe to tow 12k behind a half-ton truck. It's not safe to pull 25k behind a 3/4 ton truck. It's not safe to pull 34k behind a 1-ton truck that isn't properly equipped. Will it do it? Yeah, probably. Is the truck going to like it? No. Are you over on basically all of your ratings? 99% chance yes. Will it blow up when you put it in gear? No.

But what happens when someone cuts you off, or wipes out in front of you? Your brakes aren't designed to stop that much weight. Your suspension isn't designed to handle that much weight and your control is compromised. If you don't hurt someone, you'd be lucky. If you don't damage anything, you better go play the lotto or something.

Look, I'm all about people judging their own risks and acting accordingly. But when your actions start to impact the safety of others, I'm going to tell you that it's not a good idea, and that you really need to think twice about what you're doing.

Very well said. Especially the last paragraph. Wish I had typed it! And it is true, when you can clearly see someone is struggling on the highway or is clearly exceeding the safe limits of their truck it can create havoc for all those around them. From people who won't pass to vehicles swerving wide to avoid the rig a lot of confusion occurs in the wake of those who misjudge those risks.

ramffml · Feb 22, 2024

tron67j said:
Very well said. Especially the last paragraph. Wish I had typed it! And it is true, when you can clearly see someone is struggling on the highway or is clearly exceeding the safe limits of their truck it can create havoc for all those around them. From people who won't pass to vehicles swerving wide to avoid the rig a lot of confusion occurs in the wake of those who misjudge those risks.

You guys are trying to blame operator error on the truck and then drawing a conclusion that the truck isn't capable. That's back asswards. Dangerous operators can be found in 2500's and 3500's too, all those broken frames and jacknifed trailers, guys who end up backing into cars, trees, firepits, none of that is the fault of the truck.

I'm very tired of people telling me my truck can't do what it actually does do perfectly well. I've had 7000 pounds up to 120 km/h and a 14' kayak strapped to my bed (IE: very large sail) and was cruising with finger and thumb on the wheel. I don't recommend driving that way, but the truck did it perfectly fine which is the point.

nlambert182 · Feb 22, 2024

ramffml said:
Go ahead and disagree. Doesn't change a thing, these trucks can handle 8000 pounds perfectly well.

I still think you're missing his point. You have to get into the minutia of detail with 1500s to determine if they can tow 8k lbs (or whatever number people toss out). All will likely physically move it, sure. But whether they will do it and stay within what the axle, tires, brakes, suspension, etc.. will carry depends specifically on that particular truck.

If you're inexperienced as are most who come to these forums asking these questions, many could (and do) make the assumption that all 1500s are equal and can do it. That is never true. This is why it is important to differentiate and if you want to keep a new person safe, put them in something with enough margin to make it safe. It's ignorant to do otherwise.

nlambert182 · Feb 22, 2024

ramffml said:
You guys are trying to blame operator error on the truck and then drawing a conclusion that the truck isn't capable. That's back asswards. Dangerous operators can be found in 2500's and 3500's too, all those broken frames and jacknifed trailers, guys who end up backing into cars, trees, firepits, none of that is the fault of the truck.

I'm very tired of people telling me my truck can't do what it actually does do perfectly well. I've had 7000 pounds up to 120 km/h and a 14' kayak strapped to my bed (IE: very large sail) and was cruising with finger and thumb on the wheel. I don't recommend driving that way, but the truck did it perfectly fine which is the point.

No... but operators are a KEY component of the capabilities of the whole package. You HAVE to consider them.

The engineers tell you whether or not the truck should do it. That's why everything has a rating. If you choose to ignore it, then the operator error falls on you and not the people who show you the proof that you shouldn't be. Even if you "think" it can do it because it's done it before doesn't mean that it didn't weaken something or begin causing some other issue that has yet to reveal itself. The sad part is that some never realize it and continue making bad decisions until they're proven wrong. Sometimes that doesn't end the way they'd hoped. It's silly to even consider it as an option.

An extreme example, but applicable here.

An aircraft airframe is rated to handle a certain G-force. If you exceed it the frame isn't necessarily going to snap in half immediately. But... there could be damaged internals that weaken the frame. Over time with continued weaker forces being exerted, it could worsen. If an aircraft exceeds its rated Gs, it is required to be torn down and reinspected before it can be deemed airworthy again. What's the difference? If something fails, someone could still die.

What benefit does a 1500 have over a 2500 for daily life? I've owned all 3 and that benefit is perceived and is not the same for everyone. I can park my 2500 anywhere I parked my 1500. I've parked my 3500 anywhere I've chosen. I've gotten all 3 through the same tight spots downtown, Fit them all under the same overhangs, etc..

A smoother ride? Yes, to a degree but again it's perception. The argument that a 1500 is just more well rounded is subjective. You can't use a subjective argument as the gospel when a new person is trying to make a decision that could very well impact not only them but the general public that share the road with them.

It rides better and I can park 1 slot closer to the front door of Wal-Mart, so therefore it is good enough tow my 8-9k 32' TT all day every day.
OR.... you're over payload and your ratings. A 2500 would put you under your rated capacity by xyz.

If you were a new person asking a genuine question what would you appreciate more? How something feels or is perceived, or fact based data? No opinion, just real math.

ramffml · Feb 22, 2024

nlambert182 said:
No... but operators are a KEY component of the capabilities of the whole package. You HAVE to consider them.

The engineers tell you whether or not the truck should do it. That's why everything has a rating. If you choose to ignore it, then the operator error falls on you and not the people who show you the proof that you shouldn't be. Even if you "think" it can do it because it's done it before doesn't mean that it didn't weaken something or begin causing some other issue that has yet to reveal itself. The sad part is that some never realize it and continue making bad decisions until they're proven wrong. Sometimes that doesn't end the way they'd hoped. It's silly to even consider it as an option.

An extreme example, but applicable here.

An aircraft airframe is rated to handle a certain G-force. If you exceed it the frame isn't necessarily going to snap in half immediately. But... there could be damaged internals that weaken the frame. Over time with continued weaker forces being exerted, it could worsen. If an aircraft exceeds its rated Gs, it is required to be torn down and reinspected before it can be deemed airworthy again. What's the difference? If something fails, someone could still die.

What benefit does a 1500 have over a 2500 for daily life? I've owned all 3 and that benefit is perceived and is not the same for everyone. I can park my 2500 anywhere I parked my 1500. I've parked my 3500 anywhere I've chosen. I've gotten all 3 through the same tight spots downtown, Fit them all under the same overhangs, etc..

A smoother ride? Yes, to a degree but again it's perception. The argument that a 1500 is just more well rounded is subjective. You can't use a subjective argument as the gospel when a new person is trying to make a decision that could very well impact not only them but the general public that share the road with them.

It rides better and I can park 1 slot closer to the front door of Wal-Mart, so it will tow my 8-9k 32' TT all day every day.
OR.... you're over payload and your ratings. A 2500 would put you under your rated capacity by xyz.

If you were a new person asking a genuine question what would you appreciate more? How something feels or is perceived, or fact based data? No opinion, just real math.

Again, missing the point. The truck CAN tow 8000 pounds, safely. You're not going to damage the frame or "weaken something" lol.

Operator competence is a separate issue.

nlambert182 · Feb 22, 2024

ramffml said:
Again, missing the point. The truck CAN tow 8000 pounds, safely. You're not going to damage the frame or "weaken something" lol.

Operator competence is a separate issue.

You say this with certainty as if you helped design the chassis.

Safely is staying within all specs. Will every 1500 tow an 8k lb travel trailer within spec? If not, then you cannot say that all 1500s can. That is not something that either of us can know.

I'll leave it with this. CAN and IS DESIGNED TO are 2 different things.

Not all 1500s were designed/rated to tow 8,000 lb travel trailers where you cannot adjust the load position in relation to the axle. This is the part that is strategically left out of advertisements and a significant point that some are seemingly willing to ignore.

That rating is specific to the truck.

I disagree on operator competence. Operator competence is the driving force that determines whether or not one knows enough about what they're doing to use the truck as it was designed for. It matters.

We've beaten this poor horse to death.

tron67j · Feb 22, 2024

ramffml said:
You guys are trying to blame operator error on the truck and then drawing a conclusion that the truck isn't capable. That's back asswards. Dangerous operators can be found in 2500's and 3500's too, all those broken frames and jacknifed trailers, guys who end up backing into cars, trees, firepits, none of that is the fault of the truck.

I'm very tired of people telling me my truck can't do what it actually does do perfectly well. I've had 7000 pounds up to 120 km/h and a 14' kayak strapped to my bed (IE: very large sail) and was cruising with finger and thumb on the wheel. I don't recommend driving that way, but the truck did it perfectly fine which is the point.

I think you misunderstood my agreement with the part of that statement that talks about people judging for them self but how issues can arise when that judgement errors too greatly. I am never going to pre-judge your rig. What I feel is important is that when I can physically see that the trailer is too long for the truck, the rear sags way too much, I see bags that are clearly masking a problem, I am going to always stay away from them because I can reasonably judge that they are an accident looking for a place to happen. But too many people don't know the warning signs, or get impatient and cut in front of a improperly set up rig, or just are oblivious. It is then that the overloaded rig has helped set up an unfortunate circumstance.

And yes, I have seen 2500s and 3500s being used like a Peterbilt and the danger grows exponentially. In each scenario there are multiple factors contributing to an accident and an overloaded rig is just one. But I will also quickly agree it is the responsibility of the truck owner to use the vehicle as designed based on the data specific to that VIN-numbered truck and not relying on charts, random experiences of strangers in forums (I am one of them), or doing it because it worked in the past and there is disagreement in stated values because the government restricts something and the actual number should be higher.

Sorry if you misunderstood my like of that comment.

nlambert182 · Feb 22, 2024

The simplest thing to do is to follow the math. This removes any doubt and removes any gray area and opinion. A new owner will more easily be able to identify the answer. The answer to a "Can I tow this?" question shouldn't be you can, because I have but instead should be "What do the numbers say?"

tron67j · Feb 22, 2024

And no one can truly get their full potential until they load everyone and everything up and go to a CAT scale (or similar) and get axle weights. Can't know for sure until those values, and tongue weight of loaded trailer, are known. And this is just payload capacity calculations. Could be under on PC but trailer could be incorrectly loaded and GCWR is over.

Zoe Saldana · Feb 22, 2024

Leftyvaquero said:
Hello,

I was reading regarding a fifth wheel trailer that’s rated for 1/2 ton trucks by Keystone, Curious if anyone has purchased a trailer from them or similar and what experience you have had with it. Towing and handling of it, compared to a bumper pull trailer. Thank you for the info.

Where did you read that?

ramffml · Feb 22, 2024

nlambert182 said:
You say this with certainty as if you helped design the chassis. Safely is staying within all specs. Will every 1500 tow an 8k lb travel trailer within spec? If not, then you cannot say that all 1500s can. That is not something that either of us can know.

I'll leave it with this. CAN and IS DESIGNED TO are 2 different things.

Not all 1500s were designed/rated to tow 8,000 lb travel trailers where you cannot adjust the load position in relation to the axle. This is the part that is strategically left out of advertisements and a significant point that some are seemingly willing to ignore.

That rating is specific to the truck.

I disagree on operator competence. Operator competence is the driving force that determines whether or not one knows enough about what they're doing to use the truck as it was designed for. It matters.

We've beaten this poor horse to death.

No. The 1500 is designed to tow 8000 pounds safely in the work truck and volume selling trims. My truck has 1750 pounds of payload available; 8000 * 0.13 = 1050 pounds. Tons of room left over for a few occupants.

Again, your problem is that you're trying to equate operator competence with the trucks ability, that's incorrect.

Would you say the corvette is a slow car because the bulk of its buyers are retired guys who like to golf and putt putt to and fro from the coffee shop? No. It's a wicked fast car, despite how its often used.

You absolutely CAN safely and responsibly tow an 8000 pound trailer with my truck. That others sometimes don't doesn't negate the fact that it absolutely CAN.

Fifth Wheels By Keystone For 1500

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