3PMSF rating on tires only up to a certain size?

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ginandtonic

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Hey all,

Looking at going from my 35/13.5/20’s ridge grapplers up to a 325/60/20 at3 for better winter performance and I’m reading that the winter rating only applies to tires up to 315/12.5 in width. I imagine this is a dumb question but is it safe to assume that the only reason the size 325 wouldn’t have that qualification because of its width? All the other properties stay the same?

Thanks!
 

RamDiver

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Hey all,

Looking at going from my 35/13.5/20’s ridge grapplers up to a 325/60/20 at3 for better winter performance and I’m reading that the winter rating only applies to tires up to 315/12.5 in width. I imagine this is a dumb question but is it safe to assume that the only reason the size 325 wouldn’t have that qualification because of its width? All the other properties stay the same?

Thanks!

I just can't help but to ask, you want to go to a 325/60/30 tire for better winter driving performance? LOL

Have you ever checked into what the best properties are for a winter tire where you get snow? :oops:

Let me give you a hint. Tall and skinny work best.

.
 

04fxdwgi

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I just can't help but to ask, you want to go to a 325/60/30 tire for better winter driving performance? LOL

Have you ever checked into what the best properties are for a winter tire where you get snow? :oops:

Let me give you a hint. Tall and skinny work best.

.
With aggressive tread. 7.50 x 16's were all we used on our 3/4 and 1 ton plow trucks in MA. Never got stuck with those things unless snow was 3 feet deep.
 
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ginandtonic

ginandtonic

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I really wish I could find the link that I was looking at yesterday but I cant! It mentioned 12.5 width being the widest tire that the 3pmsf applied to.

I just can't help but to ask, you want to go to a 325/60/30 tire for better winter driving performance? LOL

Have you ever checked into what the best properties are for a winter tire where you get snow? :oops:

Let me give you a hint. Tall and skinny work best.

.
haha thats a valid question.. this truck has lived on 35x13.5x20's its whole life so I'm actually going down half an inch in width to the 325, and gaining almost a full inch in height! I don't want to compromise on the look of the bigger tires so finding the best one in my size for snow seems best!
 

RamDiver

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haha thats a valid question.. this truck has lived on 35x13.5x20's its whole life so I'm actually going down half an inch in width to the 325, and gaining almost a full inch in height! I don't want to compromise on the look of the bigger tires so finding the best one in my size for snow seems best!

LOL

I have to wonder if your interest would change if you ever had the experience of driving with proper sized snow tires.

It's your truck and your choice. I seriously enjoy winter driving and can't wait to get out after a good storm. :cool:

My Ram truck, like my previous truck, is virtually unstoppable in deep loose snow until it gets hung up on hard packed under the undercarriage.

I've driven pickup trucks with snow flying across the hood, it's so deep. And most importantly, I had control of the vehicle. :cool:

So, you plan to reduce the width by a whopping 1/2" by downsizing to 325s?

My winter tires are 2.8" narrower than the 325s.

Do you seriously expect noticeable improvement from a 1/2" reduction in size?

Best of luck. :cool:

.
 
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ginandtonic

ginandtonic

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Haha my old work trucks all had the narrow snow tires on them, no doubt narrow snow tires are better(up to a certain depth and then hybrids/MT's are better), but that's not what I'm after, I'm just trying to get the best snow performance I can at this size. I also enjoy the big snow storms and tbh the Ridge Grapplers worked quite well in deep snow, but not on ice that's for sure! I haven't been stuck yet, but I don't want to find out where that line is when I'm driving Ottawa > Toronto for Christmas with a little one in the backseat now!

The main reason I'm changing tires though is because my Ridge Grapplers are shot, and those are awful in the winter even with full tread lol. It's unfortunate because they're the nicest looking tire out there imo and they're better offroad than the 3pmsf AT's.
 

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AFAIK, the only possible method of having any sort or respectable control in snow, with a tire of that width, would be with studded tires.

I'm pretty certain that they're not legal in the region you live, if Ottawa/Toronto areas.

.
 
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ginandtonic

ginandtonic

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Well I guess this is where it gets subjective haha. Are 3PMSF tires better than my current 13.5 wide F-load ridge grapplers? Definitely. If I wanted to be the best on ice I’d be in an Audi not a lifted truck in the first place just trying to find the happy medium! Studs aren’t legal in Ontario but they are in Quebec.
 
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ginandtonic

ginandtonic

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Still didn't find the link but I did stumble across this when looking at the MT Baja Boss AT's - the last line says 3pms up to 315 width.
Screenshot 2023-10-20 at 9.09.17 AM.png
 

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Still didn't find the link but I did stumble across this when looking at the MT Baja Boss AT's - the last line says 3pms up to 315 width.

I would suggest that you not spend too much effort obsessing over the 3PMSF rating, it truly doesn't make or break the absolute quality or abilities of a tire during true winter conditions.

The 3PMSF rating is a minimal standard and is a comparison to an all-season radial which is absolute garbage for performance during the true winter conditions that you or I experience for about 4-5 months of the year.

The 3PMSF rating is for straight-line acceleration on medium-packed snow with zero consideration for cornering or braking. With no cornering or braking, how can this even be considered remotely important?

Also, the tire industry is self-regulating to maintain this standard and they're not required to test every size of a specific product line.

Certain manufacturers may choose to not rate their wider tires because if they ever get caught falsely qualifying a tire that doesn't meet the criteria of the 3PMSF, they could face massive & costly recalls and potential litigation from consumers and NHTSA etc.

I would put more value in reading user reviews on sites like this forum than using the tire industry's self-proclaimed qualification of 3PMSF.

And, all tire manufacturers have a marketing department to make pretty and alluring performance ads to tempt you further.

YMMV


Some good reading on the subject.

[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.moderntiredealer.com/retail/article/33001713/is-3peak-mountain-snowflake-the-ultimate-in-winter-tire-certification


Remember to remain objective and keep in mind, that these comments are from tire industry executives and have been carefully crafted to convey the message that they are the good guys and doing a great job for your safety.

Some of the comments look pretty shady to me but the general consensus is that the 3PMSF rating isn't that great of an indicator for real and true winter driving.

If you're serious about safe winter driving, buy a snow tire. If a snow tire isn't suitable for your requirements, research and find out what people are successfully using in similar driving conditions to your own.

Don't trust tire ads and feeble qualifications like the 3PMSF rating to guard your safety or the safety of those important to you.



I copied this comment from the link above because I thought it covered more of the important considerations than some of the others.


Aaron Neumann, product development manager, Nexen Tire America Inc.: A 3PMS marking does not represent maximum winter performance. It is more a minimum. A tire that just meets the 3PMS level is a good step up in winter performance from most all-season tires but has nowhere near the traction and control of a dedicated winter tire.

There are many sub-categories of winter tires that qualify for the 3PMS marking, which I will list here, from best to worst: studded arctic winter tires for Scandinavian countries and far north regions; non-studded Arctic tires for those same regions where studs are banned; ice tires with semi-porous treads; alpine winter tires, which sacrifice a little snow and ice performance for more wet and dry performance for those who venture into the snow only on weekends; and finally, all-season and four-season tires that meet minimum winter performance levels but can be used year-round.

An all-season tire that meets 3PMS is still a remarkable tire in the balance of performance it can deliver and for that reason, they represent the top 10% of the all-season tire market. But the best-dedicated winter tires out there can deliver up to 50% more traction and control on snow and ice. The downside, of course, is that dedicated winter tires do not perform well outside of winter conditions and need to be taken off in the summer.

.
 
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ginandtonic

ginandtonic

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Ya for sure, it's not the be-all end-all which is fine. I worked in a tire shop for 4 years through the winters of university so I'm quite familiar with how much a dedicated snow tire is better than an all-season(and I've run dozens in the past on various vehicles of my own), and by running 35's I have already conceded that I will not be running dedicated snows on this truck.. which I'm at peace with haha, if I can make it through a few Ottawa snowy winters on Ridge Grapplers (considered one of the worst in the snow), it's going to be a step up and that's all I'm going for here. Like I've said a few times now, I'm trying to maximize the snow performance for *** my size ***. I think you and I agree on everything already - of course, narrow dedicated snows are best, but that's not relevant to my question :)
 
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