A cautionary tale.......keep up on your maintenance

[EdGs]

He said it has the auto feature.

I'm gonna try to pull his build sheet and see what it shows.

 

[Grams]

I pre-fill my Cummins filter…because Cummins recommends it and that filter is right-side-up…(and has absolutely zero anti-drainback or By-pass provisions.)

but HOW EXactly do you “pre-fill” a Toyota cartridge type..??
or an UPSIDE-DOWN or SIDE-WAYS spin-on…?

And Caterpillar…which uses a system virtually IDentical to Cummins… Specifies “DO NOT PRE-FILL” filters.

 

[Wild one]

I pre-fill my Cummins filter…because Cummins recommends it and that filter is right-side-up…(and has absolutely zero anti-drainback or By-pass provisions.)

but HOW EXactly do you “pre-fill” a Toyota cartridge type..??
or an UPSIDE-DOWN or SIDE-WAYS spin-on…?

And Caterpillar…which uses a system virtually IDentical to Cummins… Specifies “DO NOT PRE-FILL” filters.

Cartridge filters i've soaked in oil first,or carefully poured oil over them,depending on how big the filter is , then let them drip for a second or 2 before install,and sideways filters you fill a couple times to soak the filter median then install. The filter median will absorb a fair bit of oil before you get to the point of oil leaking out the filter when it's tipped on it's side.
Try it next time you do an oil change on your hemi,the median will easily absorb 2 fills .
Anti-drain back isn't worth mentioning here,as you've removed the old filter off the engine,so whether the filter has an anti-drainback valve is no longer in the equation

 

[EdGs]

Cartridge filters i've soaked in oil first,or carefully poured oil over them,depending on how big the filter is , then let them drip for a second or 2 before install,and sideways filters you fill a couple times to soak the filter median then install. The filter median will absorb a fair bit of oil before you get to the point of oil leaking out the filter when it's tipped on it's side.
Try it next time you do an oil change on your hemi,the median will easily absorb 2 fills .
Anti-drain back isn't worth mentioning here,as you've removed the old filter off the engine,so whether the filter has an anti-drainback valve is no longer in the equation

I never thought about pre-soaking the cartridge filter on my in-laws Toyotas. I am thinking about it now.

 

[EdGs]

Infact, both my in-laws Toyotas spec 0W-20, and I think they are noisy AF. Both have 120k+ miles on them.

 

[Grams]

Here’s another consideration:
An oil-pump that does not sit submerged …(and most don’t…most sit above the sump-level and use a pick-up tube)…..
Such pumps often lose “prime” during an oil-change. When a pump that has lost it’s prime is faced with a restriction in the output-gallery….such as a spin-on filter pre-filled with cold oil….. that pump will have a proclivity toward “cavitation”….and may be long-delayed before it can build sufficient pressure to suck fresh oil via the pick-up tube and push it thru a pre-filled filter.
That engine may revolve it’s machinery for some time before oil-pressure is achieved.

I have witnessed oil pump cavitation on a 4.0L inline-six in a Jeep that sat for 4 months without being started. It had not had an oil-change…it had merely been parked after being driven. It was a temperate day…not cold…and the filter would have still been full of oil from the previous operation.
That engine took a full minute at 2K RPM before it finally extinguished the oil pressure warning. It was scary….but I was merely wanting to move it to the front of the property so it could be picked up for the next owner.
I have no idea how…. or if…..that new owner had any subsequent trouble with it.
( it had 330K miles on it, using SAE30 Supertech for most of it’s life. I don’t claim Supertech GOT it to 330K miles…. but Supertech did not PREVENT it from achieving that service-life. It used about 1 qt between 5K-mile oil changes…. by the time it needed a qt, it was time for a change anyway.
Needless to say… I’m not a devotee of expensive oil-brands after that experience. Supertech is fine by me.)
In 20-years of ownership during that 330K miles…..I Never “pre-filled” it’s oil filter.

 

[Grams]

Cartridge filters i've soaked in oil first,or carefully poured oil over them,depending on how big the filter is , then let them drip for a second or 2 before install,and sideways filters you fill a couple times to soak the filter median then install. The filter median will absorb a fair bit of oil before you get to the point of oil leaking out the filter when it's tipped on it's side.
Try it next time you do an oil change on your hemi,the median will easily absorb 2 fills .
Anti-drain back isn't worth mentioning here,as you've removed the old filter off the engine,so whether the filter has an anti-drainback valve is no longer in the equation

We will have to “agree to disagree” on “soaking” filter media as a preventive measure. I see no benefit to that whatsoever, as I imagine it mostly would create a barrier to evacuating the empty-filter of air… a necessity before oil could pass-thru on it’s way to bearings, etc.

 

[Wild one]

We will have to “agree to disagree” on “soaking” filter media as a preventive measure. I see no benefit to that whatsoever, as I imagine it mostly would create a barrier to evacuating the empty-filter of air… a necessity before oil could pass-thru on it’s way to bearings, etc.

Yes we'll definitely have to agree to disagree I don't think your theory holds much water/oil
6 cylinder AMC's were bad for oil pump issues,and if you had well over 300K on it,the pump was probably damn near wore out on it,and letting it sit that long meant enough of the oil film on the gears had drained off,it didn't have a good seal between the wore down gears .

 

[crackerjack1957]

We will have to “agree to disagree” on “soaking” filter media as a preventive measure. I see no benefit to that whatsoever, as I imagine it mostly would create a barrier to evacuating the empty-filter of air… a necessity before oil could pass-thru on it’s way to bearings, etc.

So much for oiled air filters.... LoL

 

[MrBonez]

It sure doesn't hurt that's for sure. Most late model engines will rev up to about 1,000 rpm after you've done an oil change,and when you figure that's almost 17 crankshaft revolutions per second,and the lifters will rattle on alot of engines for close to 10 seconds before they get enough oil to quieten up that's getting close to 170 crankshaft revolutions where the oil pressure is lacking.Anything to reduce that time to full oil flow always works in your favour.
You might never have lost an engine not prefilling the oil filter,but you sure as hell didn't do it any favours either

THIS.

Thing is about pre-filling an oil filter is to make sure the engine gets oil pressure ASAP after an oil change instead of it having to take time filling the oil filter first, then getting oil pressure afterwards.

Doesn't matter if you pre-fill or not, the engine IS running when you start it up after the change is done, all all applicable effects because of it still apply.
It is metal beating against metal in the engine with no cushion between it's moving parts while waiting for oil to arrive you know.

That's why you see diesels with filters straight up and down in most cases and any diesel you can put a name to certainly doesn't like running "Dry" at all.

If you don't have the required film of oil for it to run, while it's running that makes moving parts hammer against each other which isn't good no matter how you put it.
The damage may be unnoticable at first but it's an accumilative effect that catches up with it over time just as it is with hemi tick itself.

Even a few pecks over the course of many oil changes still creates indentions in all the machined surfaces that must remain smooth, so things will hopefully go the same while it runs and that's why getting oil to all moving parts ASAP is critical.

Does it make a difference in the lifespan of an engine?
Well - Not really.
We already know about these effects anyway from what causes hemi tick and it's a similar situation if the engine runs too long without proper lubrication to all of it's vital parts - And all it really takes is just one time for it to setup future problems you'll deal with later if you still have it.

True:
Cold starts are one thing but it normally gets pressure immediately and unless your vehicle has a pre-lube system like aircraft do, that's about as good as it gets.
When oil is changed, the new filter itself is dry and it's running, it's running longer than normal before oil starts reaching where it needs to go vs a simple cold start.

I've always done it every time I've done an oil change to my S10 over the course of about 29 years and having 300,000+ on the clock now.
It still runs great to this day with good power and uses very little oil between changes, did it to my RAM when I did it's first oil change and will keep doing it.

 

[Grams]

So much for oiled air filters.... LoL

Exactly! Think about that.

According to one well-known ‘toober… the longer an air filter remains in-place…the More Efficient it becomes!
Yep…That’s not difficult to understand.
The problem IS….. the more efficient it becomes…the more resistant it is to the passage of Air. If the goal is to prevent Air from passing-thru a filter-element…. Oil It!

 

[Grams]

I just did the math…. That 330K-mile Jeep had 66 oil changes with a dry, non-pre-filled oil filter.
I’m concluding that pre-filling an oil filter is not critical. (but it might make us feel better)

 

[Docwagon1776]

Absolutely nothing more inconsequential as prefilling vs not prefilling a filter is debated so seriously online.

Back of the envelope math says a 5.7L's oil pump moves the internal volume of an oil filter's worth of oil in roughly 20 revolutions. Needle bearings hold oil way longer than you're taking to change your oil and that film is fine for such a tiny increment of time and revolutions. Tiny tiny differences in crank bearing wear, even if it's a thing that happens (and it isn't) aren't going to wipe your motor before piston rings or lifters or the like do.

If it makes you feel good, no harm in it, but it's not a thing that matters. I've done it, I've not done it, and I've quite literally never wiped a motor based on anything that could remotely be tied to that decision.

 

[BenchTest]

It's not like there is ZERO oil left in/on parts during an oil change. When you drain your oil, I'd assume MOST people are doing so on a warm, recently ran engine. There should still be adequate oil on the moving parts for the time it takes to drain/refill. Unless you're changing oil on a cold engine that has sat un-started for a long period of time, I don't see the issue of installing a filter dry. My opinion would only vary if we were talking about a large diesel engine filter. Then I'd say dump some oil in it prior to starting.

 

[BenchTest]

Absolutely nothing more inconsequential as prefilling vs not prefilling a filter is debated so seriously online.

Back of the envelope math says a 5.7L's oil pump moves the internal volume of an oil filter's worth of oil in roughly 20 revolutions. Needle bearings hold oil way longer than you're taking to change your oil and that film is fine for such a tiny increment of time and revolutions. Tiny tiny differences in crank bearing wear, even if it's a thing that happens (and it isn't) aren't going to wipe your motor before piston rings or lifters or the like do.

If it makes you feel good, no harm in it, but it's not a thing that matters. I've done it, I've not done it, and I've quite literally never wiped a motor based on anything that could remotely be tied to that decision.

Seems we were posting similar at the same time, lol.

 

[BenchTest]

Infact, both my in-laws Toyotas spec 0W-20, and I think they are noisy AF. Both have 120k+ miles on them.

I love the Toyota 1GR-FE and 2GR-FE, and even the 2GR-FKS engines. But man, they rattle and clatter like no other. The cold idle makes me cringe all the time, even knowing before I start one that it's going to sound the way it does. I've experimented and diverted from the spec 0W20 and gone 5W30. All it did was drop my MPG, but no change in noise. The only thing that did quiet them down was to add 100ml of Moly to my 0W20.

 

[crackerjack1957]

Exactly! Think about that.

According to one well-known ‘toober… the longer an air filter remains in-place…the More Efficient it becomes!
Yep…That’s not difficult to understand.
The problem IS….. the more efficient it becomes…the more resistant it is to the passage of Air. If the goal is to prevent Air from passing-thru a filter-element…. Oil It!

That would apply to all air filters if you are referring to efficient as removing more particles if dirty.
My point is they would not sell oiled filters if they were restrictive when oiled & clean.
Thus applies to your restrictive oil filter/air theory of oil saturation.

 

[EdGs]

I love the Toyota 1GR-FE and 2GR-FE, and even the 2GR-FKS engines. But man, they rattle and clatter like no other. The cold idle makes me cringe all the time, even knowing before I start one that it's going to sound the way it does. I've experimented and diverted from the spec 0W20 and gone 5W30. All it did was drop my MPG, but no change in noise. The only thing that did quiet them down was to add 100ml of Moly to my 0W20.

Not sure just what those engines are, my MIL's is a 2010 4Runner V6 and the other is a 2013 Tundra XSP-X with a 4.6 V8.

The 4.6 isn't nearly as noisy as the V6 is, though. Might start calling it the Toyota Tap.....lol. Always sounded that way, too.

 

[Wild one]

Cold starts are proven to be the time when the most engine wear occurs,now you throw a dry oil filter into the mix,and that cold start damage is even more pronounced.
Sorry guys,i'm gonna still keep on prefilling my oil filters,no matter what you're theories are
I prefer the lifters to go quiet almost instantly,instead of rattling for 10 sec's as the pump flows enough oil to fill the filter,and then finally send the oil up through the pushrods,then back down to the lifters.The Hemi has a p!$$ poor oiling system as it is,so i'm not enhancing that crappy oiling system by not filling the filter.
You guys can keep on installing the filters dry if you want,as no matter what anybody tells you,we probably won't change your minds,you also won't change my mind either
But just for the record,one of the guys i have a pile of respect for is Lake Speed,and he knows more about oil and filters then probably all of us on here combined,and he prefills his oil filters,and i agree with him

 

[BenchTest]

Not sure just what those engines are, my MIL's is a 2010 4Runner V6 and the other is a 2013 Tundra XSP-X with a 4.6 V8.

The 4.6 isn't nearly as noisy as the V6 is, though. Might start calling it the Toyota Tap.....lol. Always sounded that way, too.

The 2010 4Runner would be the 1GR-FE 4.0L V6. Great engines, but yeah, tap, tap, tap. I can "spot" one across the parking lot when they start up.