Camper tounge weight...

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man n black

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I wrote this reply to a similar post several years ago but it still applies today. YMMV @OP

 

slbenz600

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2012 Ram 1500 CC; I'm looking at getting a travel trailer with a gross weight of 7500lbs, and a hitch weight of 800lbs. I'm planning on getting airbags to help with keveling, but was wondering how much the suspension will sag if I don't have the airbags before I have to pick it up. I will be using a weight distribution hitch as well.
My advise is to buy a 2500 for your 8,000 lbs. That's what I would do it's your truck and trailer
 

nlambert182

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That's probably what I would do also. The real hitch weight is likely going to be north of 1,100 lbs... not 800. A 2500 gasser would be a perfect fit.
 

Bighorn_Brown

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Airbags are 100% unnecessary for leveling because if you have that problem you are not using your weight distribution hitch properly and probably over your payload capacity of the yow vehicle. There is very little chance your hitch weight will be 800 pounds unless you have way too much weight behind the trailer's axle, which will make that ride about the most fun you can have without adding in a blindfold while driving.
That trailer hitch weight will be more about 1,200 pounds and give it take a hundred or so, probably on the high side.

Bags do nothing for towing other than mask a weight distribution problem (yes, they can smooth the ride, that is all). If you have too much weight on the hitch your ability to steer and brake are impacted. From your question, it would seem you possibly have the wrong truck for that trailer.
Completely agree with tron67j. Previously owned a 2016 Expedition when I purchased my rv in 2023. The dealer installed a wdh. Told me I was all done. Went outside to see my truck and rv both dipping at the connection. Told them that was absolutely wrong… make an adjustment. After another hour they told me I was set. At which point I was still not completely satisfied.

Fast forward… traded that EcoBoost in for a 2024 Hemi. 6mos later was ready to pack up, and head home to Arizona from Huntsville. Well, I was still a bit low in the back of the truck, and front of the trailer; too much tongue weight.

After contacting Blue Ox they said it was ok to use the same hardware if I needed to make adjustments. Did some research and found out for newer Dodge trucks with coil springs the hitch should be setup 180° opposite what the dealership stooges did.

With everything flipped the anti-sway bar L-brackets needed adjustment as they no longer had any tension on them. After that it’s all good now.

Oh… before completing all of the above I added some Sumo Springs coil spring helpers. Like tron67j said, they just cover up a problem… not really fix it. Did they assist with the sag? Yes. But, there was still way too much tongue weight. My ride has smoothed out quite a bit on the rearend by having the weight properly distributed.

So, fix it. Don’t mask it.
 

CaptOchs

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Do you have the 3.92 axle? You're right at the limit as far as what the 1500 can comfortably tow. If you have the 3.55 it's too much for that trailer, unless you're towing it empty. If you have the 3.21 don't even think about it. Also, I'm assuming you have the 5.7 too.

2012 HEMI 5.7 QC 4WD
w/ 3.92 = 10,050
w/ 3.55 = 8,550
w/ 3.21 = 6,750 (2WD)

I have a '13 with 3.92 axle with the 5.7. Tow capacity is just over 10k. My trailer is 7000# empty. I use the Reese Dual Cam WDH and it tows awesome.
 

ramffml

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Do you have the 3.92 axle? You're right at the limit as far as what the 1500 can comfortably tow. If you have the 3.55 it's too much for that trailer, unless you're towing it empty. If you have the 3.21 don't even think about it. Also, I'm assuming you have the 5.7 too.

2012 HEMI 5.7 QC 4WD
w/ 3.92 = 10,050
w/ 3.55 = 8,550
w/ 3.21 = 6,750 (2WD)

I have a '13 with 3.92 axle with the 5.7. Tow capacity is just over 10k. My trailer is 7000# empty. I use the Reese Dual Cam WDH and it tows awesome.

Don't overthink the rear axle, it's just games/marketing. Both trucks can realistically pull the same amount, the 3.21 will be more sluggish off the line but once they're moving they have the same available power (the magic of high gear count transmissions).

That's because the ratings use the J2807 standard, which includes acceleration tests from a dead stop, up a hill etc. Realistically, nobody is going WOT with a trailer from a dead stop. (Lack of) power is normally felt not from a dead stop, but on freeways, passing truckers up a hill, and rear axle won't help you a single bit in those scenarios.

Since the J2807 standard is not necessarily a standard that 100% matches the towing experience in real life, don't fixate on the numbers they throw out.
 

62Blazer

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Don't overthink the rear axle, it's just games/marketing. Both trucks can realistically pull the same amount, the 3.21 will be more sluggish off the line but once they're moving they have the same available power (the magic of high gear count transmissions).

That's because the ratings use the J2807 standard, which includes acceleration tests from a dead stop, up a hill etc. Realistically, nobody is going WOT with a trailer from a dead stop. (Lack of) power is normally felt not from a dead stop, but on freeways, passing truckers up a hill, and rear axle won't help you a single bit in those scenarios.

Since the J2807 standard is not necessarily a standard that 100% matches the towing experience in real life, don't fixate on the numbers they throw out.
I don't really agree with these comments on rear axle gearing. From my 30+ years of towing trailers the axle gear ratio differences are more noticeable at highway speeds and pulling hills. Trucks with higher gearing (lower numerical) gears will have the transmission downshifting early, or may even stay in a lower gear most of the time. For example let's look at 3.21 vs. 3.92 axle gears. The overall powertrain gear ratio of 3.92 axle gears in 7th gear is the same as 3.21 axle gears in 6th. Basically meaning if the truck has 3.92 gears and can pull a grade in 7th grade, a truck with 3.21 gears would be running 6th gear.
 

ramffml

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I don't really agree with these comments on rear axle gearing. From my 30+ years of towing trailers the axle gear ratio differences are more noticeable at highway speeds and pulling hills. Trucks with higher gearing (lower numerical) gears will have the transmission downshifting early, or may even stay in a lower gear most of the time. For example let's look at 3.21 vs. 3.92 axle gears. The overall powertrain gear ratio of 3.92 axle gears in 7th gear is the same as 3.21 axle gears in 6th. Basically meaning if the truck has 3.92 gears and can pull a grade in 7th grade, a truck with 3.21 gears would be running 6th gear.

Yes exactly, 7th = 6th, they have the same final gear ratio, which means they are turning at the same RPM at the same MPH, putting out the same exact torque to the wheels. Why do you feel the numerical transmission gear (7th or 6th) itself, has any effect on performance?

And I love this example, because I'd 100% rather be towing in 6th gear (direct drive) instead of 7th (overdrive). It's going to be easier on the transmission.
 

CaptOchs

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Yes exactly, 7th = 6th, they have the same final gear ratio, which means they are turning at the same RPM at the same MPH, putting out the same exact torque to the wheels. Why do you feel the numerical transmission gear (7th or 6th) itself, has any effect on performance?

And I love this example, because I'd 100% rather be towing in 6th gear (direct drive) instead of 7th (overdrive). It's going to be easier on the transmission.

That's not applicable. OP has a 2012 which pre-dates the 8 speed.

For the 8 speed you would have 5 of 8 gear ratios that line up being the same. The 3.21 offers two unique gears for towing while the 3.92 has three. The 3.92 doesn't have that extra overdrive gear the 3.21 has. It's essentially used as another gear for towing. Do you want two gears for towing or three?

If you need the maximum towing power, get the 3.92 gears. If you want faster highway speeds get the 3.21. Don't believe me? Look at the trailer tow capacity specs. Every single truck manufacturer lists a higher tow capacity for 3.92 vs 3.21. Every... single... one...
 

ramffml

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That's not applicable. OP has a 2012 which pre-dates the 8 speed.
The argument is still applicable, though the more gears you have obviously rear axle ratio matters less and less.

For the 8 speed you would have 5 of 8 gear ratios that line up being the same. The 3.21 offers two unique gears for towing while the 3.92 has three. The 3.92 doesn't have that extra overdrive gear the 3.21 has. It's essentially used as another gear for towing. Do you want two gears for towing or three?
Speaking of the 8 speed, there are 6 gears available for 3.21, and 7 for the 3.92. Or if your trailer is small enough there are 7 for the 3.21 and 8 for the 3.92.

If you need the maximum towing power, get the 3.92 gears. If you want faster highway speeds get the 3.21.
Both trucks will bring you to the point where the fuel shuts off because you hit your max MPH for the ram 1500, though the 3.21 will be at about 400 rpms less the entire time when both are in 8th.

Don't believe me? Look at the trailer tow capacity specs. Every single truck manufacturer lists a higher tow capacity for 3.92 vs 3.21. Every... single... one...
I've already explained how this works. The J2807 heavily prioritizes 0 to 15 and 0 to 30 numbers to get those ratings. It's not a secret that the 3.92 will accelerate, from a dead stop, faster than the 3.21. But if both trucks are already at 20 or 30 mph (or beyond), both trucks will have approximately equal final gear ratios to choose from, and acceleration will be identical. Do the math, as I have about 50 times on this forum, it's there in black and white.

Don't believe me? Consider this: the v6 with the 3.92 is rated to tow about 800 pounds less than the 5.7 with the 3.21. That's it, 800 pounds. Anybody who has towed 6000+ pounds with either of those trucks would break down laughing at the assertion that they are that close in performance, but that's where the J2807 standard places those trucks, because of the 0 to 15/30.

The best way to view the differences in the 3.21 and 3.92, both trucks have 8 gears.
3.21: B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I
3.92: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H

It's not quite lined up that pretty, but close enough to get the idea. Key take away, you still have a lot of the same gears, and the 3.92 stops benefiting you once it's out of first (A), just like a granny gear is not going to help you tow on the highway, it only helps you tug off the line.
 

09SilverRam

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The 5/6 RFE in that truck only has a 3:1 first gear. So you have 3, 1.67, 1.5, 1, and two overdrives. 1.67 and 1.5 are damn near the same, and you don’t want to be in overdrive with a 3.21 so you effectively have three gears to use towing. With 3.92 you can use one of the overdrives, so you effectively have four gears.

With wide spaced gear ratios of the RFE you don’t want a 3.21 rear for towing, the 3.92 is going to help keep you in the power and when it upshifts, that 1 to 2 up shift sucks when you fall out of the powerband.

The 8 speed gives you a 5:1 first gear that does a much better job or making the rear gear a non-factor and closer gear spacing keeps it in the powerband. I tow horses with a 10 speed F350 7.3 Godzilla with a 4.30. I’ve driven the same truck with a 3.55. The 10 speed makes the rear gear irrelevant towing less than 10k, above 10k I’d want the 4.30. Loaded our living quarters trailer runs 12.5k and I’ve pulled 15k with it.
 

ramffml

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The 2025 Cummins won't even offer anything other than a 3.42 (?). One rear axle ratio, and its even going to start in second gear for the most part, for heavy loads it will still use first.
 

nlambert182

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With the new ZF8 having such low 1-2 gearing and a standard HO engine making more HP/TQ, I can't think of many times where someone would need anything more than a 3.42. I have 3.42s in my 2500 with the 68RFE and it's no slouch. Should be much better with the ZF8. I'd also assume that the TQ converter will lock up in a lower gear. Mine doesn't lock until 4th and versus downshifting at times when I think it should they tend to just unlock.
 

09SilverRam

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The 2025 Cummins won't even offer anything other than a 3.42 (?). One rear axle ratio, and its even going to start in second gear for the most part, for heavy loads it will still use first.

Yeah, and that’s not really relevant to a gas powered truck with a 5 speed transmission. 1k ft lbs of torque goes a long way towards making the rear gear not matter as much, then give me 8 good gear ratios behind it, 6 that aren’t overdriven. . The 2025 gas HD trucks will be offered with a 4.10 though, so if you don’t have 1k foot pounds of torque the engineers think gears matter even with the 8 speed.

First gear on the ZF 8 for the HD trucks is 4.89 to 1, and second is 3.21 to 1. And it has a gear that sits in between the 3.21 gear and the 1.67 gear so it doesn’t fall on its face on that shift the way the 1 2 shift with 3.21 rear and a a 545/65RFE will with a 10k pound trailer and 3.21s.

So it may start in second gear, but that’s still deeper than first gear on OPs truck. In a truck with the 5/6 RFE you don’t want 3.21 for towing. The 8 speed is a completely different beast, the 5/6 isn’t much different from a mechanical 3+OD transmission in the 80s from a gearing perspective, it’s basically 3+2OD and it needs deep rear gears to tow heavy.
 

ramffml

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Yeah, and that’s not really relevant to a gas powered truck with a 5 speed transmission.

It's proof of my main point which is that with high gear counts, rear axle becomes irrelevant, you have your cake and eat it too. I get that the OP has a 5 speed, I did miss that the first time I posted.

Ford another example, they skip shift gears with the 10 speed.
 

nlambert182

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It's proof of my main point which is that with high gear counts, rear axle becomes irrelevant, you have your cake and eat it too. I get that the OP has a 5 speed, I did miss that the first time I posted.

Ford another example, they skip shift gears with the 10 speed.
Just before the trans decides to skip ALL the gears and toss itself onto the ground. :Big Laugh:
 

CaptOchs

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Don't believe me? Consider this: the v6 with the 3.92 is rated to tow about 800 pounds less than the 5.7 with the 3.21. That's it, 800 pounds. Anybody who has towed 6000+ pounds with either of those trucks would break down laughing at the assertion that they are that close in performance, but that's where the J2807 standard places those trucks, because of the 0 to 15/30.

The best way to view the differences in the 3.21 and 3.92, both trucks have 8 gears.
3.21: B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I
3.92: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H

It's not quite lined up that pretty, but close enough to get the idea. Key take away, you still have a lot of the same gears, and the 3.92 stops benefiting you once it's out of first (A), just like a granny gear is not going to help you tow on the highway, it only helps you tug off the line.

No, I don't believe you. Look up the specs for any year RAM. The tow capacity is MUCH higher for trucks with 3.92 vs 3.21. Here are some examples. You simply cannot ignore that a truck with the same body with the same engine, same transmission, and same GVWR has a better tow capacity with a 3.92 axle. There is literally no defense as this data is provided by the manufacturer of the truck! Think about it. The people that designed the truck are telling you to get the maximum tow capacity, get a truck with a 3.92 axle. Not trying to be a jerk, but the OP is planning to tow a camper that is the high end of what a half ton can tow. If he doesn't have a 3.92, then it probably didn't come with a tow package. That means suspension, brakes, and radiator could be undersized as well for that trailer. If that's the case, he shouldn't get the trailer.

Your "I" gear is an extra overdrive gear which is helpful driving on the expressway unhitched. Faster speeds at better fuel economy. Under heavy tow, the "I" gear is likely completely locked out while in Tow/Haul mode. If you don't have tow/haul mode on, you will likely just bog down and lose speed on the highway at that gear. That extra gear is repurposed on the 3.92 as another towing gear which offers additional combinations in final gear ratio. This not only provides the best ratio to keep RPMs down, but it offers better torque to ensure you can maintain that speed.
 

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ramffml

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No, I don't believe you. Look up the specs for any year RAM. The tow capacity is MUCH higher for trucks with 3.92 vs 3.21. Here are some examples. You simply cannot ignore that a truck with the same body with the same engine, same transmission, and same GVWR has a better tow capacity with a 3.92 axle. There is literally no defense as this data is provided by the manufacturer of the truck! Think about it. The people that designed the truck are telling you to get the maximum tow capacity, get a truck with a 3.92 axle. Not trying to be a jerk, but the OP is planning to tow a camper that is the high end of what a half ton can tow. If he doesn't have a 3.92, then it probably didn't come with a tow package. That means suspension, brakes, and radiator could be undersized as well for that trailer. If that's the case, he shouldn't get the trailer.

Your "I" gear is an extra overdrive gear which is helpful driving on the expressway unhitched. Faster speeds at better fuel economy. Under heavy tow, the "I" gear is likely completely locked out while in Tow/Haul mode. If you don't have tow/haul mode on, you will likely just bog down and lose speed on the highway at that gear. That extra gear is repurposed on the 3.92 as another towing gear which offers additional combinations in final gear ratio. This not only provides the best ratio to keep RPMs down, but it offers better torque to ensure you can maintain that speed.

GCWR is determined by the J2807 standard. This standard/test measures 0 to 15 and 0 to 30 (among other things), it's a TIMED event. You take a little longer to complete the course, your rating goes down. Simplifying, somebody somewhere said you need to pull this trailer up a hill at a certain temperature from a dead stop with the AC running, and do it in < X seconds. If you take longer, you are rated to pull less. That's the only difference, there is no structural/safety issue if a 3.21 pulls 11,000 pounds, it just takes longer to get the load moving. That's it.

The point is, out in the real world, 0 to 15 is a useless metric. Nobody goes WOT from a dead stop with a trailer behind them, except people who are testing them. What matters in the real world is passing power on the freeway, or acceleration on an on-ramp. These "tests" will give you 100% identical results in both trucks, that's the beauty of gearing, it doesn't matter if you use a higher transmission gear or a higher rear axle gear, final gear ratio is all that matters and both trucks have very similar final gear ratios except for the extreme ends (1 and 8).

So my point is, you need to shift your perspective away from a little piece of paper which says you can tow X pounds, and instead actually judge the trucks by how they perform when used as real trucks in the real world. And that means, for all intents and purposes, your experience towing with either truck will be 100% identical except for a slightly slower dig from a dead stop. How much time does your truck spend in first gear accelerating? Mine spends < 1 minute total, over a 4 or 5 hour towing trip through the province on the freeway.

As for the tow package etc, at some point Ram just equipped all 5.7 hemi trucks with the 8 speed with the same towing gear. No difference when it comes to suspension, cooling, brakes, radiator etc. Only difference between my truck (without tow package) and one with it, is the mirrors (literally, that's the only difference). I don't know at what year they did this, but they've been doing it for a while.

Also lets dial down the drama, 7500 GROSS is completely within range of any half ton truck. Nothing bad is going to happen no matter what truck you pull that with. Even the 3.6 would do it completely safely, though it might feel underpowered. Heck that v6 is still putting out more horsepower than a 2000 era GMC with the 5.3 and nobody would think twice about pulling 7500 pounds back then.

As for your last paragraph its complete nonsense. 7 and 8 are both over drives, the truck will use both those gears if the load your pulling is small enough. There is no "repurposing" with the 3.92 I have no idea where you got that from.

What you need to understand, when both trucks are in a gear that gives them equal RPMs at the same speed, (so 6th on 3.21 vs 7th on 3.92), both trucks are putting out the same power/torque, both are putting the same torque to the wheels. That's why there is no difference in city/freeway power. Only reason the 3.92 tugs harder off the line is because it has a final gear ratio that the 3.21 doesn't have. Once the trucks are moving up through the gears, the same gear ratios are available so there is no longer any difference in performance.

Finally, I have extensive experience towing 6000 to 7000 pounds behind a 3.21. That load requires 6th gear in my truck on the freeway at 63 mph, and that will be at about 2200-ish RPMs. The 3.92 will pull that same load in 7th since that is the same final gear ratio as the 3.21 in 6th, and it will be at 2200 rpms as well. I'd much rather tow that load in 6th than in overdrive, full stop. Towing in overdrive is not good for transmissions, so with the 3.92 either you put extra strain on your tranny and tow at 2200 rpms in 7th, or you drop a gear to 6th and now you're revving needlessly at 2700 or so for no reason since the engine itself can put out enough power at 2200.

So yes, the 3.21 is a very capable tow machine. Don't fixate on the little cells on your spreadsheet because those numbers are less valid than EPA MPG numbers.
 

CaptOchs

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Sorry I just skipped to the end of your REALLY LONG POST. Didn't seem like much in there. Anyhow that table is from RAM. Nothing edited. Just google them man! Ok... Here's a link to 2024 RAM Classic's payload and towing guide; just in case you're still skeptical. You'll note the 5.7 Hemi w/ 8HP70 transmission has different tow capacity numbers for each axle. The 3.92 gives you the best towing capacity per RAM. RAM knows better than anyone the capabilities of their trucks!
https://www.ramtrucks.com/content/d...hure/24MY_Ram_Classic_Customer_PayTow_1.6.pdf

I have towed campers for well over 20 years. I personally, I try to stick to 30% capacity. So, if my truck has 10,000 tow capacity, I will buy a trailer no more than 7000 lbs. That's what I have, and it tows great. I wouldn't buy a 3.21. This 2024 Hemi with a 3.21 looks to tow 8040/8330 lbs. That's realistically a 5600/5800 lb trailer in my book. I towed my 7000 lb. camper with a different truck that had a tow capacity of 8400 lbs. It wasn't fun! After packing for camping, it was probably close to the max tow capacity. I sold that truck and bought a truck properly sized for my camper.
 

09SilverRam

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GCWR is determined by the J2807 standard. This standard/test measures 0 to 15 and 0 to 30 (among other things), it's a TIMED event. You take a little longer to complete the course, your rating goes down. Simplifying, somebody somewhere said you need to pull this trailer up a hill at a certain temperature from a dead stop with the AC running, and do it in < X seconds. If you take longer, you are rated to pull less. That's the only difference, there is no structural/safety issue if a 3.21 pulls 11,000 pounds, it just takes longer to get the load moving. That's it.

The point is, out in the real world, 0 to 15 is a useless metric. Nobody goes WOT from a dead stop with a trailer behind them, except people who are testing them. What matters in the real world is passing power on the freeway, or acceleration on an on-ramp. These "tests" will give you 100% identical results in both trucks, that's the beauty of gearing, it doesn't matter if you use a higher transmission gear or a higher rear axle gear, final gear ratio is all that matters and both trucks have very similar final gear ratios except for the extreme ends (1 and 8).

So my point is, you need to shift your perspective away from a little piece of paper which says you can tow X pounds, and instead actually judge the trucks by how they perform when used as real trucks in the real world. And that means, for all intents and purposes, your experience towing with either truck will be 100% identical except for a slightly slower dig from a dead stop. How much time does your truck spend in first gear accelerating? Mine spends < 1 minute total, over a 4 or 5 hour towing trip through the province on the freeway.

As for the tow package etc, at some point Ram just equipped all 5.7 hemi trucks with the 8 speed with the same towing gear. No difference when it comes to suspension, cooling, brakes, radiator etc. Only difference between my truck (without tow package) and one with it, is the mirrors (literally, that's the only difference). I don't know at what year they did this, but they've been doing it for a while.

Also lets dial down the drama, 7500 GROSS is completely within range of any half ton truck. Nothing bad is going to happen no matter what truck you pull that with. Even the 3.6 would do it completely safely, though it might feel underpowered. Heck that v6 is still putting out more horsepower than a 2000 era GMC with the 5.3 and nobody would think twice about pulling 7500 pounds back then.

As for your last paragraph its complete nonsense. 7 and 8 are both over drives, the truck will use both those gears if the load your pulling is small enough. There is no "repurposing" with the 3.92 I have no idea where you got that from.

What you need to understand, when both trucks are in a gear that gives them equal RPMs at the same speed, (so 6th on 3.21 vs 7th on 3.92), both trucks are putting out the same power/torque, both are putting the same torque to the wheels. That's why there is no difference in city/freeway power. Only reason the 3.92 tugs harder off the line is because it has a final gear ratio that the 3.21 doesn't have. Once the trucks are moving up through the gears, the same gear ratios are available so there is no longer any difference in performance.

Finally, I have extensive experience towing 6000 to 7000 pounds behind a 3.21. That load requires 6th gear in my truck on the freeway at 63 mph, and that will be at about 2200-ish RPMs. The 3.92 will pull that same load in 7th since that is the same final gear ratio as the 3.21 in 6th, and it will be at 2200 rpms as well. I'd much rather tow that load in 6th than in overdrive, full stop. Towing in overdrive is not good for transmissions, so with the 3.92 either you put extra strain on your tranny and tow at 2200 rpms in 7th, or you drop a gear to 6th and now you're revving needlessly at 2700 or so for no reason since the engine itself can put out enough power at 2200.

So yes, the 3.21 is a very capable tow machine. Don't fixate on the little cells on your spreadsheet because those numbers are less valid than EPA MPG numbers.
And the OP who asked the question still doesn’t have an 8 speed transmission.

Your 8 speed is a 6+2OD and his 5/6 is a 3+2OD. Vastly different experience with a 3.21 rear end.

SAE J2807 wasn’t used by dodge until I think the 2015 model year, his 2012 was rated before J2807 and the 2012s with 3.92 were rated with a higher towing capacity.

A 2012 quad cab hemi with the 3.21 was rated at 6500 pounds and the same truck with 3.92 was rated at 10000.
 
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