E-Torque Start Stop VS Bearings

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Cabinetman

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I just bought a 2021 ET 5.7 a month ago, not looking for ET this was just the deal I was looking for. The system works fine. But a buddy and I are thinking long term it's taking more wear and tear somewhere. I just push the button and shut it off.
Simple
 
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goggles

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I just bought a 2021 ET 5.7 a month ago, not looking for ET this was just the deal I was looking for. The system works fine. But a buddy and I are thinking long term it's taking more wear and tear somewhere. I just push the button and shut it off.
Simple
Just shutting off etorque will do a great job charging your 12v battery, the problem is if your out of warranty replacing it will cost you (I hope your sitting down) around $3000, the DC to DC converter will cost you $1500 if it fails, FCM claims etorque is good for 80,000 miles, on average thats 5-7 years on a average driver, Ram drivers tend to put on way more miles, converting engine back to an alternator could be a chore in itself, Im also assuming there is going to have to be sensor removals and software changes, etorque could become money nightmare, but that's just my opinion.
 

GlennRH

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It is a desperate reach to comply, auto makers are given a next to impossible standard made up by incoherent and zero common sense environmentalists, they see wind turbines are not working out like they thought it would, even they were told by experts its not going to work to meet the needs, now they're pushing EV's and this is where the **** show is going to start again, environmentalists have failed in almost everything they were able to implement , look at the stupidity thats happening in Germany with energy, not to mention other places also, start stops are political BS, e-torque does a much better job at it, and FCM has to show government that their doing something.
I've seen it in other things. Simple hot water heater with a pilot light. There is little that can be done to increase the efficiency demanded so what did they do? Added more insulation. Now I have had places where the new tank doesn't even fit cause it's two inches wider.
 

Big3MG

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There are engineering studies I’ve read a while back that determined engines with start stop do suffer from early main bearing and cylinder wear but since the engines will get by to 100k miles before failure then the EPA found the technology was fine. The issue is that oil pumps stop when the engine stops and the oil then settles out of the bearing surfaces. When the engine starts it is immediately required to undergo a heavy load before the oil gets circulated again. Solutions include hardening the main bearings, having an electric oil pump etc. All this to save a half mpg. The start stop features are horrible for an engine since the engine goes from dead to heavy load in a second.

Quote from: https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/12/engine-bearings-under-pressure/
“As for the Start/Stop applications, shutting the engine off when a vehicle stops moving and remains motionless for more than a few seconds improves the vehicle’s overall fuel economy, especially in city stop-and-go driving. But it also means the bearings in these engines experience more cranking cycles and an increased risk of metal-to-metal contact between the bearings and crank. Lubrication is minimal until the rotation of the crankshaft forms a hydrodynamic oil wedge between the bearings and crank journals.”
 

Big3MG

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More info regarding unacceptable bearing wear on start stop engines:


Excerpts:

... Although on the one hand, this new operation condition helps to significantly reduce fuel consumption, on the other hand, it also dramatically increases the amount of boundary and mixed friction lubrication regimes for highly loaded areas of the engine, in particular the bearings. Selected studies have shown that several types of multilayer bearings (such as bearings with sputtered or electroplated coatings) show a high wear rate under stop start conditions and that only polymer coated bearing solutions seem to withstand stop start wear to a greater extent [14,15]. In relation to this, Gebretsadik et al. [16] also noted beneficial friction performance for a MoS 2 based polymer coating compared to other conventional bearing materials such as aluminium bimetal bearings or lead based coatings. ...

... In the last decade, automotive engine start-stop systems have led to a significant increase of start-stop cycles during the expected engine lifetime [1][2][3][4]. Low friction for the desired lifetime is a key requirement for engine bearings [5][6][7]. ...
... Low friction for the desired lifetime is a key requirement for engine bearings [5][6][7]. In sliding bearings, methods to improve the frictional performance range from improved mechanical design [8] over different lubricant formulation [8,9] and novel bearing material solutions [1,2,10] to modern surface engineering [11][12][13]. Furthermore, the frictional losses of sliding bearings can be reduced by wear-induced change of the contact geometry-hereafter referred to as wearing-in-under boundary or mixed-friction conditions [14][15][16][17]. ...
 
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Andersoncma

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It wouldn't be limited to etorque engines if this really is a problem. Every vehicle with stop/start could be affected by it. I haven't researched this, but there should be data on the effects of stop/start on engines. Theoretically it shouldn't stop the engine long enough for the oil film to be reduced enough to cause the kind of wear that occurs at cold start. But that's just my thinking on it. Personally, I always disabled stop/start when I had a truck with etorque. I also disable it on my current daily driver (Audi A4). Our 2020 Limited doesn't have etorque, which I'm ecstatic about.
My company truck is an F150 w start/stop feature. I learned that if I take a “dummy” 7 pin plug and plug it in the back of the truck, the system thinks I’m towing a trailer so it automatically disables start/stop. Never tried it on a Ram, but it may work the same
 

mikeru

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Just shutting off etorque will do a great job charging your 12v battery, the problem is if your out of warranty replacing it will cost you (I hope your sitting down) around $3000, the DC to DC converter will cost you $1500 if it fails, FCM claims etorque is good for 80,000 miles, on average thats 5-7 years on a average driver, Ram drivers tend to put on way more miles, converting engine back to an alternator could be a chore in itself, Im also assuming there is going to have to be sensor removals and software changes, etorque could become money nightmare, but that's just my opinion.
For the record, you can't shut off etorque. All the button does is disable stop/start. Everything else the etorque system does still functions with stop/start disabled.
 

Big3MG

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Interesting read:


Excerpt:

“What happens when the engine was just started up? The static weight of the crankshaft, flywheel, and coupling or transducer causes the main bearing journal on the flywheel side and the lower bearing shell to make contact. On the control side, the crankshaft is pulled against the upper bearing shell. This is due to the fact that the timing belt or timing chain is preloaded. When the crankshaft begins to rotate under these conditions, the conrod and main bearings are strained—because metal is now rubbing against metal. The oil pump simply did not have enough time to create a load-bearing, lubricating oil film in the bearings. Known as mixed friction, this causes wear and tear, even if the abrasion is rather limited when taking into consideration the entire service life of the engine.”
 

blackbetty14

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One thing that comes to mine is hanging a 130ftlb electric motor on the front of the crank pulley. Turning over or applying that much power through the front of the crank which is leveraged off the #1 main cap puts additional stress on that bearing and always in one direction. Something similar comes to mind like a centrifugal supercharger or supercharger in general which also places a decent load on the end of the harmonic balancer. This DOES affect front cap bearing wear and depending on the load snap the front of the crank off. I don't know if Ram has addressed this with a forged crank or beefier (larger surface area) front main cap bearing... I would doubt it though and I would still think the load/wear would be an issue over time. The frequency that it is used is reduced though so maybe thats how they offset the wear knowing its engaged maybe 5% of the engine hours means they can estimate a 100k service life before needing repairs which puts them outside the warranty period and thus extra monies in their pocket for the repair or replacement.
 
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goggles

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For the record, you can't shut off etorque. All the button does is disable stop/start. Everything else the etorque system does still functions with stop/start disabled.
Yes you are correct, its nothing but a burden if you don't use it, in my case Im living in the country, its highways and rural roads, it will do absolutely nothing for me, I cant speak for everyone else, but I don't want to pay for something expensive that will give me zero benefit.
 

mikeru

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Yes you are correct, its nothing but a burden if you don't use it, in my case Im living in the country, its highways and rural roads, it will do absolutely nothing for me, I cant speak for everyone else, but I don't want to pay for something expensive that will give me zero benefit.
I'm in the same boat as far as living in a rural area. No long duration stop lights to speak of. Very few opportunities for stop/start to even work. I noticed no loss in fuel economy by disabling stop/start. I don't really have a dog in the fight anymore since our current truck doesn't have etorque. But my daily driver Audi has a very similar mild hybrid system to the etorque. I don't keep stop/start enabled in that car either.
 

Dusty

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Thanks for the reply, I was doing some research into cars in Europe, most of them are being switched over to start stops using various techniques, they basically had to meet almost impossible to impossible environmental rules forced by governments, needless to say when it comes to bad ideas, governments top the list, especially when telling auto engineers how to build cars.
Good point, especially governments in Europe. As a result of bad judgements my grandfather spent some time there in 1917-18, and two uncles and some brothers-in-law saw a lot of Europe in 1944-45.

Regards,
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2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, factory dual exhaust, 18” wheels. Build date: 3 June 2018. Now at 83507 miles
 

mick1

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Forgive me if this has been talked about, could you lead the the thread that does.

Im looking a possible problems the E-Toque can pose down the road from start stops, this cannot be good for things like crank and rod bearings, even though the engine is warm during these cycles I still find it hard to buy into, question arises, did FCM beef up internals like the main and rod bearings, or did they just slap the E-Torque system on the 5.7, in Canada you can still get a new 2023 without E-Torque, the kicker is when your looking to dress up a Limited 1500 and you want the salt type seats, your thrown into the Elite package, no problem with that, I like most of the stuff in that package, but to get it you must have the E-Torque, the mds 5.7 is called the 25K package and with E-Torque you get the 27K package, not that big of a deal as I can go with the Limited Longhorn and get what I want but different color seats all together, when your going to spend almost 100K on a truck, you sort of want to get what you want as close as possible.

There are plenty of people who are happy with E-Torque, but it looks like it hasn't been out long enough to determine any extra wear, and how much money are you actually saving vs wear, if your commuting in places like Los Angeles and Toronto every day, my thinking is you will have saved enough money at the end of the week to buy a box of prozac to calm you down from your weekly commutes.
Last but not least I don't want air suspension, there is going to be enough problems with electronics to put up with.
I don‘t like the noise made by using E-torque at all, so I just turn it off.
 

Flynight

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Why just the E torque engine? Stop/start engines have been around for at least ten years. I am sure somebody somewhere would have questioned it by now. If someone would worry about it you can always turn the function off.
What are the salt type seats? That's a new one on me.
 

Cabinetman

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Right now I plan to trade up towards the end of the year. If a Dodge I will get one W/O ET
 

yrraljguthrie

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Teil me how it could be harder on the engine, bearing and whatnot when an engine is not running vs. idling for the length of the stop.
 

yrraljguthrie

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Starting a car doesn't harm the engine. There is not any more wear on the bearings than when the engine is running. The harm of non-stop start engines is to the starter. There is no harm to bearings when the engine is stopped and the etorque motor spins the engine to get it started. There is no way the stop-start feature causes more wear on the engine. On the etorque the stop-start is virtually undetectable. What possible reason is there to turn it off? Other than the made-up reasons written on many forums. A lot of people don't understand the stop-start and makeup reasons to not like it. How can you hate something you can't even detect?
 

HunterCat

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Starting a car doesn't harm the engine. There is not any more wear on the bearings than when the engine is running. The harm of non-stop start engines is to the starter. There is no harm to bearings when the engine is stopped and the etorque motor spins the engine to get it started. There is no way the stop-start feature causes more wear on the engine. On the etorque the stop-start is virtually undetectable. What possible reason is there to turn it off? Other than the made-up reasons written on many forums. A lot of people don't understand the stop-start and makeup reasons to not like it. How can you hate something you can't even detect?

I chose the non e-torque route because the system you "can't detect" provides little to no benefit whatsoever. It does, however, present significant downside: it's expensive to replace/repair and adds unnecessary complication to the powertrain.

For those that rent their truck and get a new one every few years, it's a non issue. For those that keep their trucks, this is going to be an expensive headache at some point down the road.
 

Rockyw

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I use a Auto Start Eliminator and my start stop stuff is off all the time.
 

yrraljguthrie

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For those that rent their truck and get a new one every few years, it's a non issue. For those that keep their trucks, this is going to be an expensive headache at some point down the road.

Stop-start has been around for over 5 years and has not presented a problem yet. I have not seen or heard any valid reasoning for not using it. You paid for it, it does some good why turn off something that you can't really tell if it's on or not? Any downside you have mentioned is something you think might happen in 5-10 years.
 
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