E-Torque Start Stop VS Bearings

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goggles

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Forgive me if this has been talked about, could you lead the the thread that does.

Im looking a possible problems the E-Toque can pose down the road from start stops, this cannot be good for things like crank and rod bearings, even though the engine is warm during these cycles I still find it hard to buy into, question arises, did FCM beef up internals like the main and rod bearings, or did they just slap the E-Torque system on the 5.7, in Canada you can still get a new 2023 without E-Torque, the kicker is when your looking to dress up a Limited 1500 and you want the salt type seats, your thrown into the Elite package, no problem with that, I like most of the stuff in that package, but to get it you must have the E-Torque, the mds 5.7 is called the 25K package and with E-Torque you get the 27K package, not that big of a deal as I can go with the Limited Longhorn and get what I want but different color seats all together, when your going to spend almost 100K on a truck, you sort of want to get what you want as close as possible.

There are plenty of people who are happy with E-Torque, but it looks like it hasn't been out long enough to determine any extra wear, and how much money are you actually saving vs wear, if your commuting in places like Los Angeles and Toronto every day, my thinking is you will have saved enough money at the end of the week to buy a box of prozac to calm you down from your weekly commutes.
Last but not least I don't want air suspension, there is going to be enough problems with electronics to put up with.
 

mikeru

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It wouldn't be limited to etorque engines if this really is a problem. Every vehicle with stop/start could be affected by it. I haven't researched this, but there should be data on the effects of stop/start on engines. Theoretically it shouldn't stop the engine long enough for the oil film to be reduced enough to cause the kind of wear that occurs at cold start. But that's just my thinking on it. Personally, I always disabled stop/start when I had a truck with etorque. I also disable it on my current daily driver (Audi A4). Our 2020 Limited doesn't have etorque, which I'm ecstatic about.
 
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goggles

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It wouldn't be limited to etorque engines if this really is a problem. Every vehicle with stop/start could be affected by it. I haven't researched this, but there should be data on the effects of stop/start on engines. Theoretically it shouldn't stop the engine long enough for the oil film to be reduced enough to cause the kind of wear that occurs at cold start. But that's just my thinking on it. Personally, I always disabled stop/start when I had a truck with etorque. I also disable it on my current daily driver (Audi A4). Our 2020 Limited doesn't have etorque, which I'm ecstatic about.
Thanks for the reply, I was doing some research into cars in Europe, most of them are being switched over to start stops using various techniques, they basically had to meet almost impossible to impossible environmental rules forced by governments, needless to say when it comes to bad ideas, governments top the list, especially when telling auto engineers how to build cars.
 

pacofortacos

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Why and how would it cause any damage?
Oil pump starts pumping as soon as the engine is turned over, since it just stopped, everything is primed with hot oil ready to lube.
Should be considerably less wear than a cold start and we really don't worry about those.
 

mikeru

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Less wear than a cold start is still more wear than if the engine stays running. I personally don't know if more wear occurs with stop/start but I'd rather err on the side of caution.

I don't think it's a case of not worrying about cold starts, as much as the fact that there's little that can be done about them.
 
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goggles

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I was going through some calculations and these are lab numbers not real world, real world would most likely be less, an average start stop on a life of a car would be 100k stop starts. which includes both cold and warm starts, an active start stop system on a car jumps it to 300K-400K, how many one or more minute stops have been made, sure there is less wear on a warm startup, but its the amount of warm start ups thats going to add things up, thats why I want to know if the e-torque engine has beefed up certain parts, Im trying to find parts list for the 5.7 and if there is a separate list for the e-torque version, that would tell it all.
Ive driven a new e-torque 5.7 ram, and it works flawlessly. but then again it was brand new at the dealer, many owners also have good reports in real life usage, the e-torque is defiantly one of the best stop start systems out there, some systems are a regular starter beefed up and a beefed up flywheel, I can see why the Europeans are buying components that delete the start stop.
Im coming from a 07 5.7 to 2023, 5.7, there has been huge changes in almost everything in the Ram, so I want to do my research into everything so I know what Im getting and what to expect.
 

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I'd be more than surprised if there were any differences between the etorque hemi and non-etorque hemi. I mean, besides the fact that one has an alternator and one has the motor/generator. I don't see them having any internal differences.
 

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Theres a thread here talking about replacement costs on the e-torque alternator…pretty steep. Wonder if that included a core?
I will avoid start/stop at all costs. It is completely unnerving to feel and hear the motor quit. My wife’s Terrain does this and still bothers me 4yrs later. Its just unnatural!
 

pacofortacos

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Less wear than a cold start is still more wear than if the engine stays running. I personally don't know if more wear occurs with stop/start but I'd rather err on the side of caution.

I don't think it's a case of not worrying about cold starts, as much as the fact that there's little that can be done about them.
True, but the engine turns a revolution or 2 pumping oil before it fires up.
I don't have the etorque but have had stop/start on my fleet vehicles for several years now and they were all starter.

The etorque should be easier on the motor than the starter type because doesn't it use the etorque motor for the first 1/2 tire revolution as an assist at least?
 
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pacofortacos

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Theres a thread here talking about replacement costs on the e-torque alternator…pretty steep. Wonder if that included a core?
I will avoid start/stop at all costs. It is completely unnerving to feel and hear the motor quit. My wife’s Terrain does this and still bothers me 4yrs later. Its just unnatural!
THAT is the biggest drawback to etorque - the replacement cost of the etorque motor and battery after the warranty is up - I think 8/80 or something like that.

Well that and part availability.
 

BuschLatte420

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Forgive me if this has been talked about, could you lead the the thread that does.

Im looking a possible problems the E-Toque can pose down the road from start stops, this cannot be good for things like crank and rod bearings, even though the engine is warm during these cycles I still find it hard to buy into, question arises, did FCM beef up internals like the main and rod bearings, or did they just slap the E-Torque system on the 5.7, in Canada you can still get a new 2023 without E-Torque, the kicker is when your looking to dress up a Limited 1500 and you want the salt type seats, your thrown into the Elite package, no problem with that, I like most of the stuff in that package, but to get it you must have the E-Torque, the mds 5.7 is called the 25K package and with E-Torque you get the 27K package, not that big of a deal as I can go with the Limited Longhorn and get what I want but different color seats all together, when your going to spend almost 100K on a truck, you sort of want to get what you want as close as possible.

There are plenty of people who are happy with E-Torque, but it looks like it hasn't been out long enough to determine any extra wear, and how much money are you actually saving vs wear, if your commuting in places like Los Angeles and Toronto every day, my thinking is you will have saved enough money at the end of the week to buy a box of prozac to calm you down from your weekly commutes.
Last but not least I don't want air suspension, there is going to be enough problems with electronics to put up with.
Guy at work has a new E torque, sees not a single difference vs the 5.7L he had in his 2019 warlock except a big repair bill if it messes up out of warranty. This is MPG & towing.
 

Rlaf75

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Thanks for the reply, I was doing some research into cars in Europe, most of them are being switched over to start stops using various techniques, they basically had to meet almost impossible to impossible environmental rules forced by governments, needless to say when it comes to bad ideas, governments top the list, especially when telling auto engineers how to build cars.
I personally think that all of your concerns are 100% valid. I highly doubt there are any differences in the engine designs between the etorque and non etorque engines. I also strongly believe that all this start stop (for the environment) is all BS. Again in my opinion, all it does is add more possibilities for failure and cost more for repairs. Like you mentioned, all the start/stops throughout your daily travels add up to multiple times the amount of "cold" starts. In caes you couldn't tell already, my opinion would be to stay away from the etorque if you can. To me it's just not worth it.
 

mikeru

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I'd be equally concerned about the starter.
The main starter motor only operates when starting the engine with the fob or push button. The etorque motor/generator is used to start the engine during stop/start operation.

True, but the engine turns a revolution or 2 pumping oil before it fires up.
I don't have the etorque but have had stop/start on my fleet vehicles for several years now and they were all starter.

The etorque should be easier on the motor than the starter type because doesn't it use the etorque motor for the first 1/2 tire revolution as an assist at least?
It restarts immediately in comparison to a vehicle that uses the main starter. It does not turn a revolution or two before firing up. Maybe more like a half turn. It's nothing like other vehicles that use the main starter for stop/start. My concerns are for long term ownership.
 

ThunderMug95

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It just seems like a desperate reach to comply. I rent 2-3 vehicles for work a month as I travel all over the US. I look for that “A” switch when I choose. This part week I had a dogpoo new model Jeep GC with the kindergarten evic, so atrocious. Like my RA3 display…blah.
 
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goggles

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It just seems like a desperate reach to comply. I rent 2-3 vehicles for work a month as I travel all over the US. I look for that “A” switch when I choose. This part week I had a dogpoo new model Jeep GC with the kindergarten evic, so atrocious. Like my RA3 display…blah.
It is a desperate reach to comply, auto makers are given a next to impossible standard made up by incoherent and zero common sense environmentalists, they see wind turbines are not working out like they thought it would, even they were told by experts its not going to work to meet the needs, now they're pushing EV's and this is where the **** show is going to start again, environmentalists have failed in almost everything they were able to implement , look at the stupidity thats happening in Germany with energy, not to mention other places also, start stops are political BS, e-torque does a much better job at it, and FCM has to show government that their doing something.
 
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Scottly

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Plain bearings do not function by being lubricated by oil. They function by keeping the two bearing surfaces (crank and bearing) separated by oil pressure and cooled by oil flow. When no oil pressure exists, those surfaces have noting else other than the shear strength of the oil molecules that still exist within the pores of the material. The reason why some high priced race engines use a pre-oiler are to provide that needed pressure before the engine oil pump can, keeping the crank bearings sufficiently spaced from the crank. I suppose there would be a lot of testing and science that would go into calculating the effects of so many re-starts to these engines, and maybe that would show it requires many, many cycles to negatively impact the bearing surfaces....But my spidey senses say it can't be good.
 

Dodge 1500 4X4

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It just can't be good for the lubrication system, stopping the oil supply to all of the bearings and journals, and starting several times in the engine cycle per use, now all of the 5th gen 2023 up have it and you have no choice, except the 4th gen classics, warlocks etc.
 

TRK_GANG74

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There is a device that is plug and play called Auto Stop Eliminator that solves the Auto Start/Stop griping. You can have the system off all the time even after stopping the engine and restarting.
Here is the link and they have it for several model vehicles including Ram Trucks.
 

pacofortacos

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Maybe the issue has already been address.
From 2012
The implementation of legislations to ban the usage of lead as an alloying element in internal combustion engines and incrementally reducing emission output is having a fundamental impact on the design and function of half bearings. It has been witnessed that bearing operating environments are becoming more aggressive as there is a trend for manufactures to adopt various technologies and strategies such as start stop / hybrid systems, downsizing and low viscosity oils in an effort to improve fuel consumption and reduce emission output. Engine bearings normally operate under hydrodynamic lubrication, however the consequence of implementing such technologies, is that the bearings have to operate under mixed or boundary lubrication for increased durations without compromising the bearing system durability. It is considered that the commercial vehicle sector will additionally start to adopt these technologies and strategies in an effort to achieve the specified targets. To attend to this difficult aggressive operating environment MAHLE have developed a proprietary lead free polymer overlay. The foundation of the coating is a high strength, temperature and chemically resistant polymer matrix. An addition of solid lubricant, metallic fillers, adhesive promoters and specific curing regime generates the desired properties. Rig and engine test results demonstrate excellent wear and fatigue resistance performance compared to conventional uncoated bearing materials. The overlay is suitable to be applied to aluminum and copper based substrates which enables it to be utilized for a wide range of applications. The purpose of this paper is to highlight the impact on the bearing operating environment and present a lead free polymeric solution to improve the system robustness and integrity.
 
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