Engine Cooling System Efficiency 5.7 Hemi

[Mister Luck]

I'm not sure why they would exclude this feature for one year, and then pick it up again the following year, especially since it's an integral part of their EPA qualification package. But I did check and the Mopar site lists the heat exchanger for 2016 as well: https://www.wholesalemopar.com/v-2016-ram-1500--big-horn--5-7l-v8-gas/cooling--transmission-heater

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33 gallon fuel tank, factory dual exhaust, 18” wheels. Build date: 03 June 2018. Now at: 067978 miles.

I’ll see if I can find the H/EX on my truck but if you look it is given to separate part numbers (Heater hoses)
If they were separate unassociated parts they would have different names and diagram listings (#4)

My understanding is the three-way heater valve was faulty and on recall and they didn’t have a replacement at the time.
The three-way valve was the source of the heat exchangers convection, correct ?

The heat exchanger part number shown in the diagram is only after 02/12/2019, other heat exchangers linked are for 6 speed transmissions.


Other opinions have complaints regarding the heat exchanger because the transmission generates heat on its own and because of its EPA designation.

https://revmaxconverters.com/produc...-8hp75-transmission-cooler-thermostat-bypass/

It could be just my misunderstanding that instead of not having a heat exchanger that I do not have a three-way valve present.

 

[Mister Luck]

Oh, I fully understand how the complete cooling system works but I was basing my comments off the first page I read in this thread.

40mph fans become a restriction true if there is enough airflow through the radiator. There will be an operating range of the engine but it shouldn't fluctuate more than 10-20*F. But what you missed is the delta T of the system which is what I explained, output and input temps will change as the engine load increases/decreases and BTU output is affected. However the delta T of the system will hardly fluctuate as the efficency of the system doesn't really change, the motor will always fall between the high and low temps of the radiator as long as the equipment (flow) and airflow do not change. But this is also why we have a thermostat which will help regulate the minimum temp of the motor if you have low ambient temp (cool winter air and high airflow) you can cool a motor below the Tstat which you can manage by restricting coolant flow or airflow (active grill shutters). I think you believe that the tstat when closed will cause excessive pressure and wear? This is not true as the pump still circulates the coolant in the engine until it heats up the Tstat which opens and allows the full system to become active. You will not have EXCESSIVE pump flow with an OEM pump, you might have cavitation issues are higher RPMs though but now many of us sustain High RPMS with our trucks? I think the operating conditions of the OEM cooling systems are rather robust, cars/trucks are sold in a wide range of climates from the south to the north where we have huge fluctuations in ambient temperatures and operating conditions. I live in an area that will see -10 to 0*F in the winter and 100*F in the summer with high humidity and it doesn't get much more of a bigger range than that in the USA. OEM designs for the range of conditions as the vehicles are sold in different areas of the country and even outside of the country (think Canada etc).

If you also take into account the design of the RAM cooling system you will see a large (sqin surface area) single core aluminum radiator with lots of surface area and a large bumper opening for high airflow. The stock radiator is more than capable of cooling more than the 400hp our engines produce and the heat generated by a 5.7 (i'm not sure about the 6.4 rad size) but I would think has enough BTU capacity for the larger 6.4 no problem. I run smaller radiators on bigger motors with bigger BTU outputs and no issues.

I feel that your overthinking something that isn't an issue and is in fact rather overbuilt for the platform in stock form. OEM's invest BILLIONS into cooling system design and engineering as its critical to keep the engine/transmission alive through a wide range of operating conditions so they error on the side of safe to save themselves on potential future repair costs on large ticket items like engines/transmissions.

Aftermarket cooling system manufactures (BECOOL) provide cooling systems based on HP outputs... there 400hp kits have a standard fabbed aluminum rad (can't remember if its single or dual core but prob dual core) and a set of dual electric fans.... they offer the a 600hp kit for the same application and guess what the difference is?... just the fans! The rad goes unchanged and its just the fans that get an upgrade. I've seen people use 20yr old stock single core aluminum rads (plastic end tanks) in cars that make 800hp with a turbo (lots of engine bay heat) and the radiators have no issues cooling. Usually comes down to fans which OEM usually excels at in comparison to the aftermarket as far as quality/longevity and CFM output. Only aftermarket I consider worth looking at is SPAL and DERALE (usually uses SPAL fans).

Thank you for these detail responses but in my defense I would like to suggest in future threads instead that you read relevant posts in order to resolve confusion and conflict of your responses to the context of the subject.

I agree a ton of engineering and re-engineering goes into every automobile sold in the USA
But most of that engineering also goes into EPA and cost vs profit margins, yes our trucks are fantastic marvels of modern engineering but some of that marvel is lost within the cracks of the economy and regulatory commissions in order to balance what is acceptable and affordable vs market demands and perceptions of value.

Through personal experience I have seen the quality of materials succumb to cost and taxation of regulations.
In this regard you should not try to convince me I am overthinking any aspect of engineering regarding parts or systems present in my vehicle, you can try and thats your personal opinion, but reflective to what you presented as an argument, they (your opinions) lack these concepts.

EDIT
A disclaimer regarding my opinions and in respect to the forums.
I have no issues with the OE replacement parts and for those forum readers that use them, or vendors that sell them, my opinions are in response to improvements regarding OE system and parts, aftermarket non OE parts do exist to fill the gap until OE improvements are developed and superseded.

 

[crash68]

You do not want to slow coolant down to absorb heat this is old wives tale. The temp outlet at the top of the rad from the motor is your high temp and the lower rad is your low temp... the motor is your delta Temp. Your motor can not run hotter or cooler than the top and lower areas of the rads, the faster you flow the coolant through the more efficient the system can be and the reduction between the high/low of the system and a more consistent delta T.

I'm going to call partial BS on this, the velocity of the water flowing through the system will affect heat transfer. Too slow of flow the amount of heat transferred is over saturated. Too fast of flow and cooling medium just skates over the surface and not picking up enough heat. If the flow goes fast enough it can start to cavitate even going around bends.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Guys, like I said and demonstrated, heat transfer is a nonlinear phenomenon that can't be simply reviewed in a Forum. Forced convective heat transfer varies with materials, flow rates, and temperatures, with nonlinear 3 dimensional mapping. Enough with the simplistic single feature revelations, huh?

 

[Mister Luck]

I'm going to call partial BS on this, the velocity of the water flowing through the system will affect heat transfer. Too slow of flow the amount of heat transferred is over saturated. Too fast of flow and cooling medium just skates over the surface and not picking up enough heat. If the flow goes fast enough it can start to cavitate even going around bends.

It’s not so much bs ..it’s really the give and take if both flow rates are equal if passing slowly in both regards the temperature or if passing flow rates are rapid the same difference in balance and volume of thermal transfer

but as HEMIMAN said before it has variance with dissimilar metals iron and aluminum and not just the coolant inside the system but also the heat that escapes and not carried by the system as radiation.

its weird science I think (sometimes) a different type of thermostat could be used or two thermostats that work separately but also in unison,

redundant redundancy, is the moto of distance race engineering but race engineers don’t even use thermostats.

As for the OE system and fuel consumption it makes sense to keep it stock but from the stand point of failure of one simple component ruining a crucial system even as implied with a possible “fail safe” design and through my personal experiences I will not bet on it.

 

[Dusty]

"As for the OE system and fuel consumption it makes sense to keep it stock but from the stand point of failure of one simple component ruining a crucial system even as implied with a possible “fail safe” design and through my personal experiences I will not bet on it."

Actually, there's few completely "fail safe" design features in most vehicles nowadays. In the case of possible overheating there would be indications to the driver that somethings wrong, like a high gauge reading, message tone, and warning indicator. In most cases things go wrong and more damage is done because the driver ignored the warning signs or allowed the warnings to prolong.

There is a population of drivers that will fit into this category, but no amount of fail safe feature other than shutting the engine down is going to solve that.

Based on the level of enthusiasm and knowledge of those in this forum, I suspect that pretty much everyone here is going to react accordingly to a problem once they get a warning.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33 gallon fuel tank, factory dual exhaust, 18” wheels. Build date: 03 June 2018. Now at: 068017 miles.

 

[Mister Luck]

Actually, there's few completely "fail safe" design features in most vehicles nowadays. In the case of possible overheating there would be indications to the driver that somethings wrong, like a high gauge reading, message tone, and warning indicator. In most cases things go wrong and more damage is done because the driver ignored the warning signs or allowed the warnings to prolong.

There is a population of drivers that will fit into this category, but no amount of fail safe feature other than shutting the engine down is going to solve that.

Based on the level of enthusiasm and knowledge of those in this forum, I suspect that pretty much everyone here is going to react accordingly to a problem once they get a warning.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33 gallon fuel tank, factory dual exhaust, 18” wheels. Build date: 03 June 2018. Now at: 068017 miles.

AYE Dusty….

(Truer words were never spoken)

I couldn’t agree with you more.
I found this example…

Almost cost me an engine

So this past Thursday 4.7.2022 coincidencentaly I had topped my overflow tank with coolant. It was in the 60/40 range with distilled water. Driving the next couple days I noticed my temps increasing!!! 210 - 215°F. Friday into Saturday I'm up to 230°F on the freeway but ironically trans temp...

www.ramforum.com

 

[blackbetty14]

Thank you for these detail responses but in my defense I would like to suggest in future threads instead that you read relevant posts in order to resolve confusion and conflict of your responses to the context of the subject.

I agree a ton of engineering and re-engineering goes into every automobile sold in the USA
But most of that engineering also goes into EPA and cost vs profit margins, yes our trucks are fantastic marvels of modern engineering but some of that marvel is lost within the cracks of the economy and regulatory commissions in order to balance what is acceptable and affordable vs market demands and perceptions of value.

Through personal experience I have seen the quality of materials succumb to cost and taxation of regulations.
In this regard you should not try to convince me I am overthinking any aspect of engineering regarding parts or systems present in my vehicle, you can try and thats your personal opinion, but reflective to what you presented as an argument, they (your opinions) lack these concepts.

EDIT
A disclaimer regarding my opinions and in respect to the forums.
I have no issues with the OE replacement parts and for those forum readers that use them, or vendors that sell them, my opinions are in response to improvements regarding OE system and parts, aftermarket non OE parts do exist to fill the gap until OE improvements are developed and superseded.

I'm not sure what I'm even reading and I went back and re-read the WHOLE thread before posting again. Seems like your on a mission to fix something that ain't broke. Do what you want to your vehicle but your information is flawed.

Quality of materials as in casting alloys or cheapness of the materials of a Tstat?

Profit is always a high priority and EPA should be as well as they get Taxed out the *****. But FCA needs to design the trucks/vehicles to make at least the powertrain warranty period to avoid warranty claims. The system in the ram is not anything special. I have had aftermarket components fail faster than factory stuff.

I would love to hear about how your going to improve the system. If you think your capable you wouldn't be asking on the forum and would just report your mods after they have been proven.

 

[Dusty]

AYE Dusty….

(Truer words were never spoken)

I couldn’t agree with you more.
I found this example…

Almost cost me an engine

So this past Thursday 4.7.2022 coincidencentaly I had topped my overflow tank with coolant. It was in the 60/40 range with distilled water. Driving the next couple days I noticed my temps increasing!!! 210 - 215°F. Friday into Saturday I'm up to 230°F on the freeway but ironically trans temp...

www.ramforum.com

Thanks for the link.

Reminds me of a person I use to be related to that drove a slant six '63 Dodge Dart from Buffalo to Rochester with no oil. That person's father said "as long as the red light is out it was okay to drive it."

When the car came home it took 4 quarts of oil.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33 gallon fuel tank, factory dual exhaust, 18” wheels. Build date: 03 June 2018. Now at: 068106 miles.

 

[blackbetty14]

I'm going to call partial BS on this, the velocity of the water flowing through the system will affect heat transfer. Too slow of flow the amount of heat transferred is over saturated. Too fast of flow and cooling medium just skates over the surface and not picking up enough heat. If the flow goes fast enough it can start to cavitate even going around bends.

That's fine but I can assure you this is not correct. Actual flow rates of the sealed cooling systems are generally not fast enough to create the issues you speak of. Where I have seen this happen in a stock stamped steel style water pump spinning high rpms. This can be midigated by high flow curved or smaller/increased number of blades. Which can actually boost low rpm coolant flow (smaller increased impeller count) vs curved blade which sacrifice low rpm flow for increased high RPM flow without cavitation within a designed RPM range. The radiator is designed to create turbulance of coolant flow in the radiator core which helps reduce the film of fluid (laminar flow) that collects on the inner surface of the tube. The fluid flow rates we are talking about is not the extreme you are thinking... stock WP's on average are like 10-20GPM at idle/low RPM... flow is linear which can be 60-100GPM at 6k+rpms which is where you get caviation issues (higher RPMS) Flat blade impellers vs curved, large vs more but smaller blades are big design changes.

Here is a quick but easy to understand read on the subject about coolant flow through an engine. it is more effective to move the coolant faster than slower.

Doesn't coolant need more time in the radiator to cool?

No. But a lot of people still think so. We have come up with some explanations for the Doubting Thomas. Debunking the I Can Have It Both Ways Theory The water has to have "time to cool" argument is perhaps the most common one we hear. In a closed loop system if you keep the fluid in the heat...

flowkoolerwaterpumps.com

 

[blackbetty14]

Also to complicate the theory of relocating the thermostat you could run into some issues. In GM's version the LS series 4.8/5.3/5.7/6.0/6.2 etc the Tstat is an integral part of the water pump and serves dual purposes. Not only does it close and allow engine to heat faster without allowing flow through to the radiator but it also blocks off an internal chamber. It's essientally a dual stage thermostat even though the one stage is basically just a spring loaded block off plate with holes. I have never had the Tstat out of my ram before it could be a similar design. LS guys can swap in a SBC/BBC system old school thermostat but they eventually run into a overheat issue or run warmer due to not blocking off that internal chamber which allows heated coolant to recirculate back into the engine and never get to the radiator. The work around is to tap in a freeze plug into the chamber to be blocked off with a small hole drilled in it when using a standard SBC/BBC stat. Not saying thats what the RAM has but it could be due to the location.

Upgrading your radiator will likely not offer much performance benefit as you aren't increasing BTU output of the engine and the stock system is clearly adequate but it won't hurt. As long as you take into account the core surface area and the cores are 1" or greater in depth you will be adding cooling capacity but you will see a reduction in airflow through the core due to the increase in core thickness. I don't see the benefit of a cooler Tstat in our Hemi unless your boosted. Besides reduced efficency the system has already been designed to work in that range and a 200-210*F operating temp is nothing crazy for a modern engine. My 87 firebird didn't even have the fans turn on till 205*F and the second stage high temp fans didn't kick on till 225*F. That is iron block, iron head, SBC tech...

 

[Mister Luck]

I'm not sure what I'm even reading and I went back and re-read the WHOLE thread before posting again. Seems like your on a mission to fix something that ain't broke. Do what you want to your vehicle but your information is flawed.

Quality of materials as in casting alloys or cheapness of the materials of a Tstat?

Profit is always a high priority and EPA should be as well as they get Taxed out the *****. But FCA needs to design the trucks/vehicles to make at least the powertrain warranty period to avoid warranty claims. The system in the ram is not anything special. I have had aftermarket components fail faster than factory stuff.

I would love to hear about how your going to improve the system. If you think your capable you wouldn't be asking on the forum and would just report your mods after they have been proven.

If you have never bought legitimate aftermarket products
I suppose it’s a little late to say you definitely need to stay away from cheap Chinese made stuff that is out there .

There’s a difference in responding to post in regards to criticism or in the spirit of helpful measure.

I must admit I do have some spare time on my hands
(if you actually cared to read the whole thread)
it seems on my side of the planet there are supply chain issues and weather permitting an unseasonable cold snap.

I will take your advice though as coming from the official forum police because vendors can’t have people like me going around mucking* up advice to buy their products because I can’t tell when a shill is making a pitch.

But I know to you those are just poor excuses not to go trolling on forums to help in your own special way.

(Not a personal attack a hint at a pattern of consistency with another forum member)

Sock puppet accounts unmasked by the way they write and post

Users who create multiple fake accounts to skew conversation in online comment forums can be exposed by their tell-tale behaviour

www.newscientist.com

I can’t help but notice that my threads attract a consistent few that all have the same arbitrary chip on their shoulder.
as if they’re oddly matching socks from the same drawer.

 

[Mister Luck]

That's fine but I can assure you this is not correct. Actual flow rates of the sealed cooling systems are generally not fast enough to create the issues you speak of. Where I have seen this happen in a stock stamped steel style water pump spinning high rpms. This can be midigated by high flow curved or smaller/increased number of blades. Which can actually boost low rpm coolant flow (smaller increased impeller count) vs curved blade which sacrifice low rpm flow for increased high RPM flow without cavitation within a designed RPM range. The radiator is designed to create turbulance of coolant flow in the radiator core which helps reduce the film of fluid (laminar flow) that collects on the inner surface of the tube. The fluid flow rates we are talking about is not the extreme you are thinking... stock WP's on average are like 10-20GPM at idle/low RPM... flow is linear which can be 60-100GPM at 6k+rpms which is where you get caviation issues (higher RPMS) Flat blade impellers vs curved, large vs more but smaller blades are big design changes.

Here is a quick but easy to understand read on the subject about coolant flow through an engine. it is more effective to move the coolant faster than slower.

Doesn't coolant need more time in the radiator to cool?

No. But a lot of people still think so. We have come up with some explanations for the Doubting Thomas. Debunking the I Can Have It Both Ways Theory The water has to have "time to cool" argument is perhaps the most common one we hear. In a closed loop system if you keep the fluid in the heat...

flowkoolerwaterpumps.com

So in a helpful way you should be able to say if a restrictor plate will speed up coolant flow or slow it down.

When you mentioned laminar flow you use the phrase
“ film of fluid “ did you mean that to describe surface water tension ?

Cavitation would be caused by which… turbulence or rate of coolant flow ?

 

[Mister Luck]

Also to complicate the theory of relocating the thermostat you could run into some issues. In GM's version the LS series 4.8/5.3/5.7/6.0/6.2 etc the Tstat is an integral part of the water pump and serves dual purposes. Not only does it close and allow engine to heat faster without allowing flow through to the radiator but it also blocks off an internal chamber. It's essientally a dual stage thermostat even though the one stage is basically just a spring loaded block off plate with holes. I have never had the Tstat out of my ram before it could be a similar design. LS guys can swap in a SBC/BBC system old school thermostat but they eventually run into a overheat issue or run warmer due to not blocking off that internal chamber which allows heated coolant to recirculate back into the engine and never get to the radiator. The work around is to tap in a freeze plug into the chamber to be blocked off with a small hole drilled in it when using a standard SBC/BBC stat. Not saying thats what the RAM has but it could be due to the location.

Upgrading your radiator will likely not offer much performance benefit as you aren't increasing BTU output of the engine and the stock system is clearly adequate but it won't hurt. As long as you take into account the core surface area and the cores are 1" or greater in depth you will be adding cooling capacity but you will see a reduction in airflow through the core due to the increase in core thickness. I don't see the benefit of a cooler Tstat in our Hemi unless your boosted. Besides reduced efficency the system has already been designed to work in that range and a 200-210*F operating temp is nothing crazy for a modern engine. My 87 firebird didn't even have the fans turn on till 205*F and the second stage high temp fans didn't kick on till 225*F. That is iron block, iron head, SBC tech...

You should let us know about the SBC thermostat compared to its lack of a bottom spring as on the OE designed Stat

What about radiator end tanks and that you actually prefer crimped on plastic and epoxy ?

 

[jawzs2]

 

[Mister Luck]

Seems quantity over quality is the strategy..
If you cant’t dazzle um with brilliance baffle um with bs

 

[Wild one]

Seems quantity over quality is the strategy..
If you cant’t dazzle um with brilliance baffle um with bs

Well you got the baffle em with BS down pat. Personally i think you just like to hear yourself talk,might just be me,but i get the feeling there's a few guys who'll agree with me

 

[crash68]

That's fine but I can assure you this is not correct.

You can try and tell yourself changing the flow rate doesn't effect heat transfer all you want but there's a whole lot of engineers that will tell you otherwise.

 

[Mister Luck]

Well you got the baffle em with BS down pat. Personally i think you just like to hear yourself talk,might just be me,but i get the feeling there's a few guys who'll agree with me

I know you’re sock puppet for a moderator or
at least in a pocket , because your mood
is only defined by how much popularity it promises not about any truth and is not about any real consequence.

There are plenty of threds with similar subject lines but I don’t see any attempt at perversity by you or your puppets I can’t prove any of this except all of the puppets that seem to gather in your defense all have the same fictional insight and knowledge and your edited posts lack a time stamp.

Sock puppet accounts unmasked by the way they write and post

Users who create multiple fake accounts to skew conversation in online comment forums can be exposed by their tell-tale behaviour

www.newscientist.com

 

[Wild one]

I know you’re sock puppet for a moderator or
at least in a pocket , because your mood
is only defined by how much popularity it promises not about any truth and is not about any real consequence.

There are plenty of threds with similar subject lines but I don’t see any attempt at perversity by you or your puppets I can’t prove any of this except all of the puppets that seem to gather in your defense all have the same fictional insight and knowledge and your edited posts lack a time stamp.

I will give you 1 thing ,you make me laugh,lol.