Exhaust Manifolds Debacle

[JohnnyOOO]

Love my 2010 Ram 1500 SLT Crew Cab 5.7L Hemi 4x4 now with 107K miles. I am the original owner. Did have the manifolds replaced by dealership 2 times while still under warranty BUT of course the tick and busted bolts came back. Decided I want to keep this truck as I have always given it TLC and special care. Been studying the threads on here for years regarding the options, especially short headers.

My local mechanic is good, been a wrench for 35 years and his NAPA certified shop is booked out for 10-14 days. He convinced me he could use NAPA manifolds and parts, will come with 24 months 24K transferrable warranty. I told him about all the issues and problems but he KNOWS what he is doing. Just called him(2pm in the afternoon) to see how the repair was going, dropped off truck last night for an appointment made 2 weeks ago, he had all the parts ordered in for the job. He is freaking out, says 6 of the studs(3 on each side) are snapped off inside the block, can't get a welder on them and will have to try and drill them out. If he can't get a good angle on them wants permission to pull the engine. My first thought is screw this and tell him to slap the manifolds back on and I will take it to an exhaust shop and do the header route and let the new guy know about the snapped of bolt problem.

Any advice from the sages on this forum?

 

[Ohio5pt7]

Is this guy at a shop or back yard. If he is at a shop let him fix it. With the net you can 1 ruin is rep if he doesnt 2. Sue for any and all costs and damages. 3 most likely an exhaust shop doesnt want someone else's screw up

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[chri5k]

I agree. The next shop is going to be very wary of taking this aborted job. It seems he broke off the studs so he owes you at least a break on the labor to extract them. My path would be to pull the heads and send them to a machine shop to extract the broken bolts properly. Pulling the engine to get a better angle with a hand drill is a recipe for more failure. With that many broken studs I don't think they will be able to get a jig bolted down properly to keep the drill centered. Also, if the extractor is not turned evenly, which is really hard by hand, he could break off the extractor in the bolt. That is real nightmare since the extractor is harder than the bolt and it is nearly impossible to drill it out. A machine shop definitely would be needed at that point to use diamond tipped bits to drill the hardened steel. A very tedious expensive job.

A machine shop will put the head on a mill and use a center finder or measuring tools to find the exact center of the bolt. Then use a center drill to start the hole perfectly centered and straight. Next use a regular bit to drill the hole. After that they can chuck up the extractor and manually turn the chuck to extract the bolt. The mill will hold all the pieces in perfect alignment to ensure the best outcome. As a bonus they can clean up the exhaust mating surface on the head to make sure it perfectly flat to reduce the chance of leakage later.

PS - Never ever let a shop put heli-coils or other quick fixes on those threads if they botch the extraction. The constant heating and cooling of that area will cause them to fail very quickly.

This situation requires careful thinking and deliberate well planned action. I have seen these types of jobs spiral out of control to the point the head needed to be welded or replaced. I worked in a machine shop and a customer brought in a head from a rare 1930's Dusenberg. Some yutz had broken off all but 2 of the exhaust bolts. Screwed up drilling out 3 of them before the customer told him to stop. There are no extra heads for those lying around. Ended up having to weld up, re-drill and tap those 3 bolt holes since he drilled so far off center it actually took away part of the exhaust flange. The rest took two days to carefully extract. That whole job took a week.

 

[JohnnyOOO]

Is this guy at a shop or back yard. If he is at a shop let him fix it. With the net you can 1 ruin is rep if he doesnt 2. Sue for any and all costs and damages. 3 most likely an exhaust shop doesnt want someone else's screw up

Thanks for the advice. I will let him see it through.

He is a legit shop, been around for o 20 years. When I spoke with him he was freaking out as his other mechanic had just quit because of COVID anxiety. He is booked solid for 2 weeks and had not allocated extra time for this job, guess he thought it would go smoothly.

I am thinking there will be a good end to this story and will post the final outcome!

 

[Livinalittle]

If the manifolds were replaced twice by the dealership I can't help but wonder if they replaced the hardware the second time or just reused the old bolts. It seems weird that they would break off deep inside the heads like that.

 

[Dodge 1500 4X4]

It looks like they used the old bolts that were already stretched from all of the expansion and contraction and they probably didn't torque them, leave it at his shop till things cool down it sounds like he will make it right.

 

[JohnnyOOO]

Spoke to him early this evening. I was going to tell him he could have the truck for a week, BUT when we spoke he was much calmer. Said my suggesting about a weld got him to thinking and he called another master mechanic who told him to use the MIG welder at normal settings, he could stick it in the hole and not have to worry as it would not adhere to the aluminum. He had 5 of the 6 already out and was working on the last. He was very upbeat and relaxed. Hopefully, I can pick up the truck tomorrow.

 

[Tach_tech]

If he couldn’t get a welder in there he needs to find someone that can. I’ve never not been able to get a welder in there to extract the studs, you just have to be creative.

These studs snap all the time, and it wasn’t his fault they snapped. If they broke going in then you could blame him but, if the bolt snapped coming out it’s not his fault especially considering how common this is.

Personally I wouldn’t want someone to try drilling them out, seen to many heads get ruined doing this. Either the threads get messed up or drilled to far and hit a water jacket.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Just put on shorty headers. If not you'll do manifolds again and again and again.

 

[JohnnyOOO]

FINAL OUTCOME: Got my truck back yesterday, sounds great, no leaks NO TICK.

He was able to get the 6 broken studs out via the welding method. Took him a few extra hours. Now I have new manifolds, NAPA certified brand, and a 24-month warranty on parts and labor. If the **** happens again(hi probability) he will fix them with new manifolds and parts ... BUT my plan is to have him take the broken in / heat stress relieved manifolds and mill them or run on the belt sander. He swears the NAPA manifolds will work!

 

[seabrook]

That’s a good outcome

 

[JohnnyOOO]

Just put on shorty headers. If not you'll do manifolds again and again and again.

Thanks for the response. I really didn't want to go the header route. Don't want the extra heat in my engine compartment. Also don't want the game of picking the BEST header for the job, gasket, bolts, etc.... kind of like what is the BEST oil discussion.

 

[Livinalittle]

FINAL OUTCOME: Got my truck back yesterday, sounds great, no leaks NO TICK.

He was able to get the 6 broken studs out via the welding method. Took him a few extra hours. Now I have new manifolds, NAPA certified brand, and a 24-month warranty on parts and labor. If the **** happens again(hi probability) he will fix them with new manifolds and parts ... BUT my plan is to have him take the broken in / heat stress relieved manifolds and mill them or run on the belt sander. He swears the NAPA manifolds will work!

That’s what I ended up doing. The machine shop had the manifolds on the belt sander for about 10 minutes before he decided they would have to be milled. The front and rear ports were out approx .006” on both manifolds. I reinstalled them with new hardware and proper torque specs a couple weeks ago and so far so good. I need to order two new heat shields though.

 

[JohnnyOOO]

How necessary are the heat shields?

 

[Tach_tech]

How necessary are the heat shields?

Necessary enough that not having them will only increase under hood temps. By how much though, no idea.

 

[RAM08110719]

Some engineer decides a heat shield should go here. I know it's there for a good reason. That would be enough for me to want to replace the heat shield. It might keep the floor from getting to hot in the cab. I don't know. I do know that extra parts aren't a thing. So it is wise to replace it. Good work. Glad all turned out well.

 

[Monkeywrench]

So I was a Chrysler tech for 7 years now do heavy duty. I do tons of manifolds at home. I don’t reinstall the heat shields. Bolts don’t break again and no issues from heat. 2, 3 years later still good. No melted inner fenders no running issues.

 

[Tach_tech]

So I was a Chrysler tech for 7 years now do heavy duty. I do tons of manifolds at home. I don’t reinstall the heat shields. Bolts don’t break again and no issues from heat. 2, 3 years later still good. No melted inner fenders no running issues.

I’be been a FCA tech for over 10 years, but that’s really not important. I always re-install them. There’s no benefit to be had by not re-installing them unless you’re not using studs, they’re broken, or just being lazy.

Obviously you won’t really notice any difference and of course you’re not going to melt the liner, they don’t get hot enough to do that, it’s not a cat. That’s not the point though, the heat shields serve a purpose so they should be there.

 

[chris52010trx4]

I’be been a FCA tech for over 10 years, but that’s really not important. I always re-install them. There’s no benefit to be had by not re-installing them unless you’re not using studs, they’re broken, or just being lazy.

Obviously you won’t really notice any difference and of course you’re not going to melt the liner, they don’t get hot enough to do that, it’s not a cat. That’s not the point though, the heat shields serve a purpose so they should be there.

On the subject of not reinstalling heat shields do you find they create more valvetrain noise? I took mine off when I swapped to different hardware but did not reinstall the heat shields... after doing so I've noticed a noise mainly below or directly infront of me under acceleration..collector bolts are tight. New manifolds and gaskets, no broken bolts ..everyone who's heard it says exhaust leak of sort but I'm at a loss on it I dont think its valvetrain related but not certain as I havent ripped it open

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[Tach_tech]

Anything attached to the engine would in theory help isolate noise so it’s possible. I don’t have any first hand experience with any increase is noise with them off though.