Fifth Wheels By Keystone For 1500

[nlambert182]

I don't see it on website anymore. I did ask my friend, he said dealer added it, not factory. SO I was wrong on that part.

On the Rebel part... You are not correct. 4th Rebel's had low payload. 5th Rebel does not, It has one of the highest towing/payloads for 4x4 1500. Look it up.

Also everything is marketing... Just as 2500's are. difference in price between 2500-3500 base is $1000. Maybe $4000 difference with same options.

Newer Trailers designed for 1500's is called Engineering, design, light materials, adjusting weight, less options.

Just cause all of you with 2500 don't 'believe' it. Doesn't make fact. The numbers are legal. Just cause you don't feel safe or whatever, doesn't change anything.

Easy enough... if I'm wrong I'm wrong. Post a pic of your payload sticker.

Aside from the Scamp and the Escape, fifth wheels are not DESIGNED for a 1/2 ton. They are designed to be as lightweight as possible and then MARKETED as 1/2 ton towable. If you can do basic math and HONEST math, you'll quickly figure out that the ones marketing these trailers are using dry weights and max payloads of 1/2 ton trucks. Neither are accurate numbers. Once you factor in the GVWR of most 5th wheels (minus the 2 unicorns I mentioned) and the true payload of a 1/2 ton, they instantly mismatch.

Want an example?

Keystone Cougar 22MLS "1/2 ton towable"
Dry Weight: 5,887 lbs
Cargo capacity: 1,337 lbs
Advertised hitch weight: 645 lbs (10% of 5,887 is 645)
Length: 26'10"

Cougar Half-Ton premium-fifth-wheels - Specifications for Floorplans

Interested in a Cougar Half-Ton premium-fifth-wheels RV? Compare the specifications and amenities for the floorplans for each model to help decide which meets your needs.

www.keystonerv.com

ACTUAL GVWR: 7,224 lbs (Dry weight + Cargo capacity)
Actual hitch weight: 1,444.8 lbs (20% x GVWR)

Now... realistically find a Ram that's not a regular cab 2wd Tradesman with a 3.6L that, after you add in passengers and cargo, has enough payload remaining to tow this trailer.

The highest available payload is on a Regular cab Tradesman, long bed, 2wd with a 3.6L at 1,910 lbs. But max trailer weight is 4,720. Most folks have at least a double cab if not a crew cab. You're already over payload on those. The second you step up from a Tradesman, all bets are off.

The V8 with the closest payload (which you would need) is the same truck with the Hemi. Payload is 1,680 lbs on paper. Add in a fifth wheel hitch at ~200 lbs and you're at capacity already. The second you add in another person you're already overweight.

 

[Tulecreeper]

I'll call your BS..
The Escape 5.0, it's even designed to accommodate the short 5.7' bed trucks.

E5.0 Fifth Wheel

The Escape 5.0 is our lightweight 21-foot fiberglass fifth-wheel trailer. It is easily towed with a mid-size truck.

escapetrailer.com

That's not a standard 5th-wheel - a person may as well get a bumper-pull travel trailer. A 21' TT would have more interior space than that little thing, and less payload weight. You can't compare the tongue weight of a TT to the pin weight of a 5th wheel because a 5th-wheel pin weight should be in the 22% - 25% GVWR range and a TT is 12% - 14% on the bumper. Even a small 5-er like that has about a 1300# pin weight. How much payload does your standard 1500 have?

 

[Riccochet]

That was just one example @crash68 Posted... Keystone/Jayco and others have a bunch of them, designed for 1500's.
Biggest being the 32 BHS. As I mentioned way above. I'd get the TT version vs 5th wheel(for 1500). But fact is you can buy one if you wanted.

What they are marketed as and what vehicle you actually need to pull one are two different things.

And, LOL at the 32BHS. It has a 9,428 lb dry weight with a 1,570 lb dry pin weight. Add batteries, propane, all your shtuff and you're pushing 2200-2400 lbs of pin weight, if not more.

What half ton is going to tow that? What half ton is going to tow it without putting a single thing in the trailer? 200 lbs of hitch in the bed, 1,570 of dry pin weight, plus driver. You're already at 2000 lbs of payload before putting a single fork in that trailer.

 

[CanRebel]

Easy enough... if I'm wrong I'm wrong. Post a pic of your payload sticker.

Aside from the Scamp and the Escape, fifth wheels are not DESIGNED for a 1/2 ton. They are designed to be as lightweight as possible and then MARKETED as 1/2 ton towable. If you can do basic math and HONEST math, you'll quickly figure out that the ones marketing these trailers are using dry weights and max payloads of 1/2 ton trucks. Neither are accurate numbers. Once you factor in the GVWR of most 5th wheels (minus the 2 unicorns I mentioned) and the true payload of a 1/2 ton, they instantly mismatch.

Want an example?

Keystone Cougar 22MLS "1/2 ton towable"
Dry Weight: 5,887 lbs
Cargo capacity: 1,337 lbs
Advertised hitch weight: 645 lbs (10% of 5,887 is 645)
Length: 26'10"

Cougar Half-Ton premium-fifth-wheels - Specifications for Floorplans

Interested in a Cougar Half-Ton premium-fifth-wheels RV? Compare the specifications and amenities for the floorplans for each model to help decide which meets your needs.

www.keystonerv.com

ACTUAL GVWR: 7,224 lbs (Dry weight + Cargo capacity)
Actual hitch weight: 1,444.8 lbs (20% x GVWR)

Now... realistically find a Ram that's not a regular cab 2wd Tradesman with a 3.6L that, after you add in passengers and cargo, has enough payload remaining to tow this trailer.

The highest available payload is on a Regular cab Tradesman, long bed, 2wd with a 3.6L at 1,910 lbs. But max trailer weight is 4,720. Most folks have at least a double cab if not a crew cab. You're already over payload on those. The second you step up from a Tradesman, all bets are off.

The V8 with the closest payload (which you would need) is the same truck with the Hemi. Payload is 1,680 lbs on paper. Add in a fifth wheel hitch at ~200 lbs and you're at capacity already. The second you add in another person you're already overweight.

All you did was play with numbers.... Just cause it has 1337 Cargo capacity... How is that actual hitch weight??

Same with 20%... I could do 10%, 15%, 25%....

Proper way would be load what you, and go to CAT scale...

Like the chart you or someone posted earlier was for 2023 model years? 2021 model year max towing was just over 11k

 

[mtofell]

Keystone/Jayco and others have a bunch of them, designed for 1500's.

They're not designed for 1500s.... they're designed to be sold to people with 1500s. BIG difference. RV manufacturers don't care a bit about truck design... they care about selling product. Opening up their 5th wheel lines to the 1500 truck owners is marketing genius. Albeit, morally bankrupt.

 

[CanRebel]

What they are marketed as and what vehicle you actually need to pull one are two different things.

And, LOL at the 32BHS. It has a 9,428 lb dry weight with a 1,570 lb dry pin weight. Add batteries, propane, all your shtuff and you're pushing 2200-2400 lbs of pin weight, if not more.

What half ton is going to tow that? What half ton is going to tow it without putting a single thing in the trailer? 200 lbs of hitch in the bed, 1,570 of dry pin weight, plus driver. You're already at 2000 lbs of payload before putting a single fork in that trailer.

I agree on that 32BHS one. Maybe some F150? shrugs. Don't like Ford, so never looked.

 

[ramffml]

All you did was play with numbers.... Just cause it has 1337 Cargo capacity... How is that actual hitch weight??

Same with 20%... I could do 10%, 15%, 25%....

5w's are designed for about 20% tongue weight. TT's are designed for about 13%.

That is a big difference and its why you can't tow a similar length 5w.

 

[CanRebel]

5w's are designed for about 20% tongue weight. TT's are designed for about 13%.

That is a big difference and its why you can't tow a similar length 5w.

Let's say true. I'm not saying it's wrong.

But how does this work?

/quote
Advertised hitch weight: 645 lbs (10% of 5,887 is 645)
/quote

Website is using 10%.

Now, you do 20%? And take the max cargo as actual hitch weight?

ACTUAL GVWR: 7,224 lbs (Dry weight + Cargo capacity)
Actual hitch weight: 1,444.8 lbs (20% x GVWR)

Also how does max cargo capacity effect 5th wheel directly? Your going dump 1337 pounds weight in front ? What if 1137 pounds on trailer axle. Does my pin weight even move?

 

[ramffml]

Let's say true. I'm not saying it's wrong.

But how does this work?

/quote
Advertised hitch weight: 645 lbs (10% of 5,887 is 645)
/quote

Website is using 10%.

Now, you do 20%? And take the max cargo as actual hitch weight?

ACTUAL GVWR: 7,224 lbs (Dry weight + Cargo capacity)
Actual hitch weight: 1,444.8 lbs (20% x GVWR)

Also how does max cargo capacity effect 5th wheel directly? Your going dump 1337 pounds weight in front ? What if 1137 pounds on trailer axle. Does my pin weight even move?

This is the problem when talking "in general" vs "my specific trailer". Generally speaking, 5w's are designed with much heavier tongue weights than TT's. You can find an exception for every rule. The (general) rule is: take 20% of your 5w GVWR and that will tell you whether you need more truck or not.

Yes you can also dump a ton of weight behind your trailer axle to lighten the pin, but now you've just created an accident waiting to happen as that trailer will wag you around like a dog with a limp doll. And also keep in mind that you can't always choose where to put your storage.

Generally speaking: half tons cannot properly tow 5w's of the same GVWR and length vs a TT at that same GVWR and length.

 

[Ratman6161]

You would be wrong. Wasn't anywhere close to payload. Also you would wrong the second part as well. My rebel had the option to add fifth wheel system from Factory. Since I don't own fifth wheel, I didn't add it. My friend did.

Just out of curiosity, what were your weights on the scale when you weighed the rig?

 

[nlambert182]

All you did was play with numbers.... Just cause it has 1337 Cargo capacity... How is that actual hitch weight??

Same with 20%... I could do 10%, 15%, 25%....

Proper way would be load what you, and go to CAT scale...

Like the chart you or someone posted earlier was for 2023 model years? 2021 model year max towing was just over 11k

I didn't play with numbers. I used MATH that you use if you're going to tow a trailer. The manufacturers play with the numbers to convince people who don't know any better to buy their product. It's a morally bankrupt system, but it's there and it's up to you to know the math.

I've owned 4 fifth wheels and 3 travel trailers (about to be 4). The gross vehicle weight rating of a trailer is the dry weight plus the cargo capacity. The sum of those two numbers is its max weight (gross vehicle weight rating). This is what you calculate because you never tow a trailer empty. If you don't use the GVWR, you run the risk of overloading. On a fifth wheel, most of the storage is ahead of the trailer axles, so most of the cargo capacity weight is loaded on the rear axle of the truck. Not all, but a majority.

The rule of thumb for pin weight (hitch weight) on a fifth wheel trailer is between 20-25%. This means that percentage of the trailers total weight is supposed to be on the rear axle of the truck. This number is required for stable towing. For a travel trailer it's 12-15%. You can look this up anywhere.

Yes, the correct way to get the ACTUAL number is a CAT scale, but you can't do that before you buy it so you do the math to get as close as you can. Again, the goal is to make an educated purchase. And yes, the chart I posted earlier was 2023. Max tow rating is the wrong number to use. Payload, Rear axle weight rating, tire weight ratings... those are the 3 most important numbers. You shouldn't exceed any of those.

 

[Ratman6161]

At such a small trailer 19-21' what is the point of it being a 5th wheel other than being a 5th wheel? You can get a lot more trailer in a bumper pull for a 1/2 ton than you can a 5th wheel.

Want a 5th wheel? Get a 3/4 or 1 ton truck. And even then you have to be selective as to which truck you buy. A deezul 2500 Ram is not a good candidate.

The reason I've been looking at smaller 5th wheels in the 30 foot range is 1. everybody tells me they tow easier and 2. I want to stay at no more than 30 feet total length to make it easier to get in and out of places and that some places I want to go have a 30 foot limit. On my 29' 8" travel trailer, that length includes the tongue...the interior is only a bit over 26 feet. My untested theory is that a 5th wheel the same length would have more actual interior space.

Of course I have a gas engine Ram 2500 with a payload sticker weight of 2939. At an RV show this past weekend, i was looking at 5th wheels in the 29 to 31 foot range that claimed to be "half ton towable". Real world, most of these seemed to be a good fit for my 3/4 ton gas truck. Thinking back to my Sierra 1500 and it's 1650 payload, I would not have been able to tow ANY of them. The lightest hitch weight I saw was about 1250 which is, of course dry. I know from experience and CAT scale weights,nthat me + wife+ typical stuff we have in the truck (day to day, NOT loaded up for a trip) is 435 pounds. 1250+435=1685. So the Sierra 1500 would have been over loaded with just the empty 5th wheel and the two people and I haven't even added in the weight of a 5th wheel hitch.

Some of the "half ton towable" fifth wheels I saw, particularly one of the KZ Durangos I, would have been boarder line for my 2500.

To the guy who posted in the Ford add for an F150 that said it had like 2455 payload...even if it did, that would be really boarder line for any but the smallest. But your real truck is really unlikely to have that number. For example in 2022 Ram was saying "up to" 4000 pound. And you could even order such a truck. It would have been a single cab, long bed, two wheel drive, Tradesman, with 4.10 rear end and no other options. My Laramie, short bed, 4WD, 3.73, nicely but not extravagantly optioned is 2939..almost 1000 pounds less. Get the same truck with a diesel and it's about 800 less.

 

[Riccochet]

The reason I've been looking at smaller 5th wheels in the 30 foot range is 1. everybody tells me they tow easier and 2. I want to stay at no more than 30 feet total length to make it easier to get in and out of places and that some places I want to go have a 30 foot limit. On my 29' 8" travel trailer, that length includes the tongue...the interior is only a bit over 26 feet. My untested theory is that a 5th wheel the same length would have more actual interior space.

Of course I have a gas engine Ram 2500 with a payload sticker weight of 2939. At an RV show this past weekend, i was looking at 5th wheels in the 29 to 31 foot range that claimed to be "half ton towable". Real world, most of these seemed to be a good fit for my 3/4 ton gas truck. Thinking back to my Sierra 1500 and it's 1650 payload, I would not have been able to tow ANY of them. The lightest hitch weight I saw was about 1250 which is, of course dry. I know from experience and CAT scale weights,nthat me + wife+ typical stuff we have in the truck (day to day, NOT loaded up for a trip) is 435 pounds. 1250+435=1685. So the Sierra 1500 would have been over loaded with just the empty 5th wheel and the two people and I haven't even added in the weight of a 5th wheel hitch.

Some of the "half ton towable" fifth wheels I saw, particularly one of the KZ Durangos I, would have been boarder line for my 2500.

To the guy who posted in the Ford add for an F150 that said it had like 2455 payload...even if it did, that would be really boarder line for any but the smallest. But your real truck is really unlikely to have that number. For example in 2022 Ram was saying "up to" 4000 pound. And you could even order such a truck. It would have been a single cab, long bed, two wheel drive, Tradesman, with 4.10 rear end and no other options. My Laramie, short bed, 4WD, 3.73, nicely but not extravagantly optioned is 2939..almost 1000 pounds less. Get the same truck with a diesel and it's about 800 less.

If you can keep pin weight down to around 2200-2300 loaded you'll be fine. You might also consider swapping out the pin box for something like a Gen-Y or Reese GooseBox. This way you only need a ball in the bed, no 200 lb hitch. Obviously those goose neck conversions weigh more than a pin box, but less than a pin box plus hitch. So you save a little there. And save your back loading and unloading a hitch.

But, yeah, I'm nearly same as you for payload at 3047 lbs and also looking at 30-32' 5th wheels. If I don't find what I'm looking for I'll step up to a 3500 dually and call it a day. Tow whatever I want.

 

[KeithP]

Snickering as I read this thread. I caught up to and followed a 5th wheel as we exited the interstate the other day. Followed him another mile on a two lane road till he signaled to turn off into a neighborhood. To my surprise he was towing what had to be a 30+ft 5th wheel with an F150. It was squatted down so far on all fours, any bump and he had to be scrubbing tires in his inner fenders. Fools will be fools.

 

[CanRebel]

This is the problem when talking "in general" vs "my specific trailer". Generally speaking, 5w's are designed with much heavier tongue weights than TT's. You can find an exception for every rule. The (general) rule is: take 20% of your 5w GVWR and that will tell you whether you need more truck or not.

Yes you can also dump a ton of weight behind your trailer axle to lighten the pin, but now you've just created an accident waiting to happen as that trailer will wag you around like a dog with a limp doll. And also keep in mind that you can't always choose where to put your storage.

Generally speaking: half tons cannot properly tow 5w's of the same GVWR and length vs a TT at that same GVWR and length.

I agree with most of what you said. Now picture, the trailer in question was design and engineered to have lower pin weight for truck.

As you said, generally you wouldn't put 5th wheel on 1500. Not 20 years ago. Improvements, lighter materials, different design, etc... It possible.

Just like with @crash68 example. Everyone who said it's "NOT" possible just come back and said it's useless.... if it is not isn't point. It's 5th wheel, well within towing with 1500.

 

[ramffml]

I agree with most of what you said. Now picture, the trailer in question was design and engineered to have lower pin weight for truck.

As you said, generally you wouldn't put 5th wheel on 1500. Not 20 years ago. Improvements, lighter materials, different design, etc... It possible.

Just like with @crash68 example. Everyone who said it's "NOT" possible just come back and said it's useless.... if it is not isn't point. It's 5th wheel, well within towing with 1500.

That one 5w is an exception. Try finding other 5w's with a pin weight < 1600 pounds when maxed out. Don't forget you need to hop in the truck with you and your wife/kids, that's probably another 400 pounds so now you need pin weight < 1200 pounds. These don't exist.

 

[CanRebel]

I didn't play with numbers. I used MATH that you use if you're going to tow a trailer. The manufacturers play with the numbers to convince people who don't know any better to buy their product. It's a morally bankrupt system, but it's there and it's up to you to know the math.

I've owned 4 fifth wheels and 3 travel trailers (about to be 4). The gross vehicle weight rating of a trailer is the dry weight plus the cargo capacity. The sum of those two numbers is its max weight (gross vehicle weight rating). This is what you calculate because you never tow a trailer empty. If you don't use the GVWR, you run the risk of overloading. On a fifth wheel, most of the storage is ahead of the trailer axles, so most of the cargo capacity weight is loaded on the rear axle of the truck. Not all, but a majority.

The rule of thumb for pin weight (hitch weight) on a fifth wheel trailer is between 20-25%. This means that percentage of the trailers total weight is supposed to be on the rear axle of the truck. This number is required for stable towing. For a travel trailer it's 12-15%. You can look this up anywhere.

Yes, the correct way to get the ACTUAL number is a CAT scale, but you can't do that before you buy it so you do the math to get as close as you can. Again, the goal is to make an educated purchase. And yes, the chart I posted earlier was 2023. Max tow rating is the wrong number to use. Payload, Rear axle weight rating, tire weight ratings... those are the 3 most important numbers. You shouldn't exceed any of those.

I didn't say your math was wrong. I said you are playing with the numbers.

It's as bad as marketing, you claim RV manufactures are doing by making a RV for 1500's.

You took the highest possible number and claimed 1500 can't do it! Look at the payload. Sure would be, if you filled the trailer to MAX.

It's no wonder @crash68 posts that pic of Big Rig pulling tiny 4 foot trailer.

 

[crash68]

You can't compare the tongue weight of a TT to the pin weight of a 5th wheel because a 5th-wheel pin weight should be in the 22% - 25% GVWR range and a TT is 12% - 14% on the bumper. Even a small 5-er like that has about a 1300# pin weight.

You can throw your assumption about what a fifth wheel pin weight and trailer tongue weight "should" be out the window. Depending on the trailer design those weights may not even be in the ballpark. That small fiver pin weight would double to get to where you're assuming it will be, going from 16% up to 25% weight percentage which would mean about half the payload would need to be stacked on the pin. With that kind of loading you might as well sell your truck and go buy a Peterbilt, Mack or Kenworth semi.

 

[CanRebel]

That one 5w is an exception. Try finding other 5w's with a pin weight < 1600 pounds when maxed out. Don't forget you need to hop in the truck with you and your wife/kids, that's probably another 400 pounds so now you need pin weight < 1200 pounds. These don't exist.

True.

But, what if it's not 20% ?

As example, the 1500 5th versions of Thor, say it's 10%. They have some that go by 20%, and some that go by 25%(very heavy ones even higher)
That is how they designed and material used.

We aren't talking about things 20-30 years ago.

 

[CanRebel]

Just out of curiosity, what were your weights on the scale when you weighed the rig?

I wasn't there when he did it. Just told me afterwards. We own three CAT scales. He did it in Quebec, I'm in Ontario.