Help! What would you do next? Hemi misfire and low power

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RamDiver

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An important part of any troubleshooting or diagnosis is information gathering.

Before replacing even the most obvious of failures, I would choose to test first.

Why not load-test the battery before replacement?

My first choice would be to buy a toaster-style battery load tester at HarbourFreight for $20 because they're far more reliable than using a digital tester.

Then clean the battery posts and clamps.

battery load tester.jpg



These cost about $5 and make the task quick and easy.

battery post cleaner.jpg

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Wild one

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An important part of any troubleshooting or diagnosis is information gathering.

Before replacing even the most obvious of failures, I would choose to test first.

Why not load-test the battery before replacement?

My first choice would be to buy a toaster-style battery load tester at HarbourFreight for $20 because they're far more reliable than using a digital tester.

Then clean the battery posts and clamps, adding a thin film of dielectric grease.

View attachment 542620



These cost about $5 and make the task quick and easy.

View attachment 542621

.
Don't use Dielectric grease between the post and battery clamp.Dielectric grease is actually an insulator,and doesn't conduct electricity worth crap.It's okay to smear it on the battery connection after the battery is reconnected though.

"What is dielectric grease? Despite the fact it has "electric" right there in the name, it's a fairly common misconception that dielectric grease is capable of conducting electricity. In actual fact, dielectric grease is an insulator and doesn't conduct electricity.Mar 19, 2021"
 

RamDiver

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Don't use Dielectric grease between the post and battery clamp.Dielectric grease is actually an insulator,and doesn't conduct electricity worth crap.It's okay to smear it on the battery connection after the battery is reconnected though.

"What is dielectric grease? Despite the fact it has "electric" right there in the name, it's a fairly common misconception that dielectric grease is capable of conducting electricity. In actual fact, dielectric grease is an insulator and doesn't conduct electricity.Mar 19, 2021"

We will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

While I agree that dielectric grease is not a good conductor, I'm from the camp that believes that the clamps & posts have an irregular surface area (not flat microscopically) and that a thin layer of dielectric grease is beneficial to prevent oxidation and corrosion.

Searching online will demonstrate that there is a lack of consensus on how to use dielectric grease on battery terminals. I can see why people choose to not use it under the clamps but that hasn't stopped me.

My last Tundra battery survived for 8 years and the last 2 or 3 of those years, it was only used once or twice per week. Also, it was parked in an unheated barn.

"So, if you want a really good connection between these metal surfaces, why would you put dielectric (non-conductive) grease in between them? Because these surfaces are not perfectly smooth. At the high points they touch, and at the low points there are gaps. Dielectric grease will get smooshed into the gaps, keeping out moisture and electrolytes. You only need a very thin layer here, though."

YMMV :cool:

.
 

Wild one

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We will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

While I agree that dielectric grease is not a good conductor, I'm from the camp that believes that the clamps & posts have an irregular surface area (not flat microscopically) and that a thin layer of dielectric grease is beneficial to prevent oxidation and corrosion.

Searching online will demonstrate that there is a lack of consensus on how to use dielectric grease on battery terminals. I can see why people choose to not use it under the clamps but that hasn't stopped me.

My last Tundra battery survived for 8 years and the last 2 or 3 of those years, it was only used once or twice per week. Also, it was parked in an unheated barn.

"So, if you want a really good connection between these metal surfaces, why would you put dielectric (non-conductive) grease in between them? Because these surfaces are not perfectly smooth. At the high points they touch, and at the low points there are gaps. Dielectric grease will get smooshed into the gaps, keeping out moisture and electrolytes. You only need a very thin layer here, though."

YMMV :cool:

.
If you want to use a grease between the post and clamp,there are electrically conductive greases that are far superior to generic dielectric grease for a battery connection.


 

Burla

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It does not conduct electricity which you seam to know, so I wouldn't use it at all inside battery terminals. I've never even heard of it used this way. Any grease will keep out moisture if that is the goal.
 
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horbizzle

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Update!

Replaced the battery today. It’s like the truck immediately came back to life… almost.

It definitely runs better and has ran all day today without the extreme list of random codes. I believe the whirring/whistling is from the exhaust because it seemed to get quieter now when I got the engine nice and hot.

I decided to take it for a “spirited drive” I guess you could call it. I ran it a little harder and it was doing “ok”. Had way more power than before, but still feels like it’s dragging when accelerating. So it’s a start.

Then on the 3rd pass at full throttle… CEL. P0305 (Cylinder 5 misfire). It ran with a misfire for about 20 seconds and then leveled out as long as I didn’t push it hard. Stopped and cleared the codes.

Then when I made it home, as I was pulling in the drive and got another CEL… P1524 (I think its oil pressure sensor and/or Camshaft advance?)

I borrowed one of those OBD2 bluetooth transmitters and was able to use the Torque Pro app to monitor a few things while it was running.

Everything seemed fine, but I don’t really know what I’m looking at when it comes to diagnostics. Oil pressure was good. Fuel pressure and rate was good. But I did notice that the O2 sensor voltages were fluctuating pretty far.. within range, but every now and then it would bottom out to below 0.1v. But it never got above 0.8v.

The truck has 265k miles on it and I’ve owned it for the last 185k of that. I know I’ve never changed the 02 sensors… so that might be something I need to do. That could be causing some of these misfires as well as the rough running.

Thoughts?
 

Burla

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It's called an italian tune up, technical term.

So imo the second thing was the battery died or lost so much capacity it couldn't send power to where it needed to, and the first original thing was unrelated and still a issue. Ignore all of those unrelated codes, and isolate the issue. It would have been nice if the battery would have cleared the original code, of which I had my doubts. Start recording every code now, and when the code was thrown hot or cold, how the truck is driving. See if that specific mis fire code travels again, and what other codes pop up now that the dead battery codes are history.
 

Burla

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The second code might be related to MDS, have you tried driving the entire time in tow haul for diagnose? TH takes off MDS, as so does use manual shift mode.
 

Wulf

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Don't use Dielectric grease between the post and battery clamp.Dielectric grease is actually an insulator,and doesn't conduct electricity worth crap.It's okay to smear it on the battery connection after the battery is reconnected though.

"What is dielectric grease? Despite the fact it has "electric" right there in the name, it's a fairly common misconception that dielectric grease is capable of conducting electricity. In actual fact, dielectric grease is an insulator and doesn't conduct electricity.Mar 19, 2021"
Wild one, not sure if you are aware of this or not, but dielectric grease is designed for exactly that purpose, and putting in on the terminals before putting the leads on does not cause an issue. If it did, then electronics manufacturers wouldn't put it on the connectors they want to protect from corrosion before they plug those connectors in. Automotive manufacturers wouldn't put it on the bulb sockets for so many years. As long as there is good metal to metal contact once the connections are made, having dielectric grease there in what would otherwise be air gaps is not a bad thing.

Dielectric grease is not so robust that it would prevent electrical contact between battery terminals and leads after tightening the clamp/bolt/whatever down.
 

Wulf

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It's called an italian tune up, technical term.

So imo the second thing was the battery died or lost so much capacity it couldn't send power to where it needed to, and the first original thing was unrelated and still a issue. Ignore all of those unrelated codes, and isolate the issue. It would have been nice if the battery would have cleared the original code, of which I had my doubts. Start recording every code now, and when the code was thrown hot or cold, how the truck is driving. See if that specific mis fire code travels again, and what other codes pop up now that the dead battery codes are history.
I have been bouncing around all over this forum tonight, and I do not remember where specifically I saw it, but I remember a thread that had, as one of the symptoms, throwing misfire codes, and the thread was about issues with the MDS system (the one that shuts down half of the motor if it isn't 'needed').

According to the problem progression, if I remember right, if this is from the potential MDS failure and the underlying actual problem is not fixed, it could trash the engine. I do not remember if they showed in there how to tell if it was a legit misfire due to other issues, or it was due to MDS issues.
 

RamDiver

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Wild one, not sure if you are aware of this or not, but dielectric grease is designed for exactly that purpose, and putting in on the terminals before putting the leads on does not cause an issue. If it did, then electronics manufacturers wouldn't put it on the connectors they want to protect from corrosion before they plug those connectors in. Automotive manufacturers wouldn't put it on the bulb sockets for so many years. As long as there is good metal to metal contact once the connections are made, having dielectric grease there in what would otherwise be air gaps is not a bad thing.

Dielectric grease is not so robust that it would prevent electrical contact between battery terminals and leads after tightening the clamp/bolt/whatever down.

I have successfully used the practice of using a very thin film of dielectric grease on the battery posts for decades without any grief.

I have read stories of those who have applied excessive amounts and had problems though.

I'm in the process of reassessing this practice and looking at switching to a conductive grease similar to the product that Rick has linked above.

I believe the potential rationale behind the use of dielectric grease may have been to use only one product under and over the clamps to limit the oxidation and corrosion, where it may not be ideal under the clamps due to it's lack of conductivity.

.
 

Wild one

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Wild one, not sure if you are aware of this or not, but dielectric grease is designed for exactly that purpose, and putting in on the terminals before putting the leads on does not cause an issue. If it did, then electronics manufacturers wouldn't put it on the connectors they want to protect from corrosion before they plug those connectors in. Automotive manufacturers wouldn't put it on the bulb sockets for so many years. As long as there is good metal to metal contact once the connections are made, having dielectric grease there in what would otherwise be air gaps is not a bad thing.

Dielectric grease is not so robust that it would prevent electrical contact between battery terminals and leads after tightening the clamp/bolt/whatever down.

YSK: Do not put dielectric grease (or bulb grease) on the metal surfaces of a plug. This is the wrong way to use it and could start a fire.​

Automotive

Why YSK: Dielectric grease is an insulator, meaning it does not allow electric current to flow through it. If you apply it to the metal electrical contact surfaces inside a plug, you are making it more difficult for the current to flow through that connection.
The grease has many applications and benefits, but the most common use that people are likely familiar with is for vehicle headlights and spark plugs. You know, that little packet of white grease they upsell you at the counter when you buy those items.
The way you are supposed to use it is to apply it around the mating surfaces of the plug/socket, not on the metal electrical contact surfaces. Its purpose is to keep water from getting inside the connector. Think of it like using caulk to seal an opening.
If you apply it to the metal electrical contact surfaces, you are increasing resistance which can cause the plug to heat up. Even if you have done this in the past and haven't had any issues, don't keep doing it because all it takes is that one time where it doesn't wipe enough off and it can cause arcing, the plug to melt, or, worst case scenario, start a fire.
I've replaced more melted headlight plugs than I can count because people unknowingly filled the socket with dielectric grease.
 
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horbizzle

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I have been bouncing around all over this forum tonight, and I do not remember where specifically I saw it, but I remember a thread that had, as one of the symptoms, throwing misfire codes, and the thread was about issues with the MDS system (the one that shuts down half of the motor if it isn't 'needed').

According to the problem progression, if I remember right, if this is from the potential MDS failure and the underlying actual problem is not fixed, it could trash the engine. I do not remember if they showed in there how to tell if it was a legit misfire due to other issues, or it was due to MDS issues.
I think I read a similar post about that same issue. I am going to try to drive around today with the t/h mode on and see what happens.

I want to do a couple more runs once it's warm to see if it only throws a code when I'm under heavy load now. Because starting, idling, and easily driving it was fine last night and again this morning. Yesterday it until I actually got on the throttle that it boggs down and throws a coat at me and starts to run rough. I don't think that's an MDS issue but I could be wrong of course.

Also going to price out a set of O2 sensors for this thing. Because if I can remember correctly, I remember there was a short time period last year where it threw several O2 sensor codes. But then I cleared it and it hasn't come back since.

Just because of the voltage is within range doesn't mean it's acting right. Right?
 

Dusty

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So... A whole new bunch of info.

Truck ran sluggish but no codes for a 10 mile round trip this morning. But then later in the afternoon I tried to go 2 miles to the store and it died in the street when I came to a stop at a light.

Codes galore!

Standard P0300

But now...
P0306 (Cylinder 6 misfire)
P0608 (Control module VSS output "A")

P1411
P1414
P1416 (Secondary Air Injection System Bank 2)
P1417
(All related to MDS I believe)

P0420 (O2 Sensor, but not specified which one)
P0273 (Cylinder 5 Injector Circuit Low)
P2450 (Evaporative Emissions Control Systems switching valve performance or stuck open)
P1524 (Throttle Closed Position Performance)

The whistle is more like a "harmonic flutter" and has gotten louder and more constant with the throttle. It's very loud on startup and then gets louder as you accelerate or just pop the throttle.

When it's actually running it's sluggish as hell and feels like I'm pulling a trailer. It pings on each shift when the rps drop and it's under load.

Oh...the slight exhaust leak I had on the passenger side has suddenly become louder as well, and there's a new exhaust smell in the cab. Awesome!

Where do I even start with all this?

Or do I just throw 30lbs of tannerite under it and hit it with my 6.5 creedmore from a few hundred yards away?
With that many miles and a fluttering whistle sound...and an exhaust leak...it could be a clogged catalytic converter. Also, 3 and 5 are on the same bank.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 111157 miles.
 

04fxdwgi

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Yup, that is basically same as what we used on the cable connectors and terminations in the -48VDC telecommunications battery plants. 10,000 amp busses on them babies.

We used what is actually called No-OX-ID :
https://baymarinesupply.com/no-ox-id-a-special-conductive-terminal-grease.html

I use it on all electrical connections on the truck and in the boat. Never a corroded terminal.
 
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Wulf

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YSK: Do not put dielectric grease (or bulb grease) on the metal surfaces of a plug. This is the wrong way to use it and could start a fire.​

Automotive

Why YSK: Dielectric grease is an insulator, meaning it does not allow electric current to flow through it. If you apply it to the metal electrical contact surfaces inside a plug, you are making it more difficult for the current to flow through that connection.
The grease has many applications and benefits, but the most common use that people are likely familiar with is for vehicle headlights and spark plugs. You know, that little packet of white grease they upsell you at the counter when you buy those items.
The way you are supposed to use it is to apply it around the mating surfaces of the plug/socket, not on the metal electrical contact surfaces. Its purpose is to keep water from getting inside the connector. Think of it like using caulk to seal an opening.
If you apply it to the metal electrical contact surfaces, you are increasing resistance which can cause the plug to heat up. Even if you have done this in the past and haven't had any issues, don't keep doing it because all it takes is that one time where it doesn't wipe enough off and it can cause arcing, the plug to melt, or, worst case scenario, start a fire.
I've replaced more melted headlight plugs than I can count because people unknowingly filled the socket with dielectric grease.
Not disputing this information, sort of. The way it was explained to me (many moons ago), was that when you inserted the plug (bulb, whatever) in question, then the connections would push the dielectric grease to one side, and not stay in between the metal to metal contact, but get pushed essentially around that new metal to metal connection, and prevent or at least limit air, and by extension corrosion, from getting into that area. The trick was to not goop it in there like caulk and have so much of it that it squishes out of the connection.
 

Wulf

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I have successfully used the practice of using a very thin film of dielectric grease on the battery posts for decades without any grief.

I have read stories of those who have applied excessive amounts and had problems though.

I'm in the process of reassessing this practice and looking at switching to a conductive grease similar to the product that Rick has linked above.

I believe the potential rationale behind the use of dielectric grease may have been to use only one product under and over the clamps to limit the oxidation and corrosion, where it may not be ideal under the clamps due to it's lack of conductivity.

.
One potential problem with using conductive grease is be very careful you only get it where you want it to be. Clean up any excess because while unlikely if done properly, this could also cause a "connection" where one wasn't before, or not supposed to be if there is too much in the wrong spot(s).
 

Wild one

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Not disputing this information, sort of. The way it was explained to me (many moons ago), was that when you inserted the plug (bulb, whatever) in question, then the connections would push the dielectric grease to one side, and not stay in between the metal to metal contact, but get pushed essentially around that new metal to metal connection, and prevent or at least limit air, and by extension corrosion, from getting into that area. The trick was to not goop it in there like caulk and have so much of it that it squishes out of the connection.
You're assuming the metal to metal contact wipes the connection clean enough to not create resistance,in most cases,there's still enough dielectric grease left on the contact points to create a resistance factor,and consequently heat.
 

RamDiver

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One potential problem with using conductive grease is be very careful you only get it where you want it to be. Clean up any excess because while unlikely if done properly, this could also cause a "connection" where one wasn't before, or not supposed to be if there is too much in the wrong spot(s).

I'm looking to upgrade my former practice of using dielectric grease to increase conductivity UNDER connections such as battery posts and clamps.

In my former practice, I've always used a very thin film of grease. I'm not sure why you would think I'd change that practice of application after switching to a conductive grease.

If anything, I would limit the thin film of conductive grease to the space under the clamps and wipe off any excess grease that gets squeezed out.

If applied correctly, there should be minimal excess.

I may continue to use a thin film of dielectric grease on the exterior of the battery clamps.

.
 
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