Hemi cam & lifter issues—does Uncle Tony have a point?

[pacofortacos]

And here is the how the lifter bores are oiled. This is plenty of oil for the bores and debunks Uncle tony's theory as far as the "scuffs" on the sides of the lifters.
The lifters get some oil all of the time and from 3 different sources - lifter oil galley (MDS galley), down through the push rods, splash/mist from the spinning crank/rod/piston assemblies.

"When the MDS solenoids are in the "off" state (8-cylinder mode), they supply oil pressure of approximately 3 psi to the lifter bores. This lifter oil keeps the bores lubricated and prevents air from entering the system. When the solenoids are activated, oil pressure of 16 psi or greater is supplied to the lifters and the engine enters the 4-cylinder mode."

 

[Snake15eyes1998]

Ran across this today and found it interesting. Apparently this guy does a lot of YT presentations and is well known. Does he have a valid point on why some hemis eat cams & lifters?


DG

Uncle tony went over this again. More detail, more info.

 

[Burla]

Uncle tony went over this again. More detail, more info.

Thanks for posting that brother, people that bash him don't get that the jist of what he says is 100% accurate. Maybe he missed some stuff, but when you view 30 lifters and you can see there are lubrication issues, the **** aint getting oil. It is either simply not getting oil, or the oil that hits the lifters is inadequate to keep the lifter lifting.

It seams like lubrication strategies can at least help this issue, especially when added to the posts found by jetblackram. This guy has been building engines for decades and is an engineer. The elusive "expert" needed to weigh in on this issue has been found. If you don't believe uncle tony, and you don't believe ram forum members experiences in the tick threads, then maybe you will believe the expert below. All roads lead to the same location, all three opinions and experiences above all validate each other.

 

[Brandon-w]

Thanks for posting that brother, people that bash him don't get that the jist of what he says is 100% accurate. Maybe he missed some stuff, but when you view 30 lifters and you can see there are lubrication issues, the **** aint getting oil. It is either simply not getting oil, or the oil that hits the lifters is inadequate to keep the lifter lifting.

It seams like lubrication strategies can at least help this issue, especially when added to the posts found by jetblackram. This guy has been building engines for decades and is an engineer. The elusive "expert" needed to weigh in on this issue has been found. If you don't believe uncle tony, and you don't believe ram forum members experiences in the tick threads, then maybe you will believe the expert below. All roads lead to the same location, all three opinions and experiences above all validate each other.

100% facts.

Sent from my SM-G981W using Tapatalk

 

[Wild one]

Thanks for posting that brother, people that bash him don't get that the jist of what he says is 100% accurate. Maybe he missed some stuff, but when you view 30 lifters and you can see there are lubrication issues, the **** aint getting oil. It is either simply not getting oil, or the oil that hits the lifters is inadequate to keep the lifter lifting.

It seams like lubrication strategies can at least help this issue, especially when added to the posts found by jetblackram. This guy has been building engines for decades and is an engineer. The elusive "expert" needed to weigh in on this issue has been found. If you don't believe uncle tony, and you don't believe ram forum members experiences in the tick threads, then maybe you will believe the expert below. All roads lead to the same location, all three opinions and experiences above all validate each other.

Somebody needs to come up with a bottom mounted spray bar system that sprays oil right onto the lifter roller by the looks of it.Not a sure fire fix,but should get more oil onto and into the lifter wheels roller bearings .Reminds me of the old AMC's where we used to add another oil feed line under the intake to keep the back mains living,something similiar except to spray the lifter rollers from the bottom. Good thing my personal Hemi vehicles are run hard,lol

 

[Wild one]

I wonder if somehow the piston squirter assembly could be modded to spray onto the bottom of the lifters to.

 

[ScLeCo]

Moral of the story. Go faster.

 

[Snake15eyes1998]

Thanks for posting that brother, people that bash him don't get that the jist of what he says is 100% accurate. Maybe he missed some stuff, but when you view 30 lifters and you can see there are lubrication issues, the **** aint getting oil. It is either simply not getting oil, or the oil that hits the lifters is inadequate to keep the lifter lifting.

It seams like lubrication strategies can at least help this issue, especially when added to the posts found by jetblackram. This guy has been building engines for decades and is an engineer. The elusive "expert" needed to weigh in on this issue has been found. If you don't believe uncle tony, and you don't believe ram forum members experiences in the tick threads, then maybe you will believe the expert below. All roads lead to the same location, all three opinions and experiences above all validate each other.

Definitely a believer now about the hemi tick and redline oil. Gonna start using it on my next oil change. Uncle tony did a great job explaining this. This blows my mind every time I watch it. The 5.7 hemi, has great power. I love mine, but underneath all that power. Is a ticking time bomb.

 

[Taylor513]

So the takeaway from it all is to ideally travel mostly highway to keep the RPM's around 2K and up. Would also adding an extra .5-1.0 quart of oil help this or will that not make a difference?

 

[Wild one]

So the takeaway from it all is to ideally travel mostly highway to keep the RPM's around 2K and up. Would also adding an extra .5-1.0 quart of oil help this or will that not make a difference?

I wonder'd about that to,whether a little more oil in the crankcase would help with the splash lubrication thrown up by the crank.

 

[Snake15eyes1998]

Thanks for posting that brother, people that bash him don't get that the jist of what he says is 100% accurate. Maybe he missed some stuff, but when you view 30 lifters and you can see there are lubrication issues, the **** aint getting oil. It is either simply not getting oil, or the oil that hits the lifters is inadequate to keep the lifter lifting.

It seams like lubrication strategies can at least help this issue, especially when added to the posts found by jetblackram. This guy has been building engines for decades and is an engineer. The elusive "expert" needed to weigh in on this issue has been found. If you don't believe uncle tony, and you don't believe ram forum members experiences in the tick threads, then maybe you will believe the expert below. All roads lead to the same location, all three opinions and experiences above all validate each other.

So with the 2019,2020,2021 ram 5.7 hemi. Did Chrysler redesign the block? Or is this still going to be an issue in the future?

 

[Randy g3 hemi]

Ran across this today and found it interesting. Apparently this guy does a lot of YT presentations and is well known. Does he have a valid point on why some hemis eat cams & lifters?


DG

Are we not true gear heads? Gen2 Hemi’s BURN UP push rod tips! Did we trash the Gen 2 Hemi for that ??? NO ! We fixed or modify it to correct the little quirks. Just think? If we throw out the Gen 2 Hemi’s, We would not have the fastest, most powerful top fuel engines in the world ! Period. P.S look at the first Gen 2 Hemi’s made by Chrysler corporation, and now look at the latest and greatest version of that Gen 2 based Hemi??
It looks basically the same, other than all the bling! And being made in all aluminum! SO WE GEAR HEADS DELIGHT IN FIXING THE QUIRKS OF OUR FAVORITE MOPARS!!
LONG LIVE THE GEN 3 HEMI!!
PSS. Johnson lifter corporation. Has had a fix for this for quit a few years now. We use there limited travel plunder, With pin oiled TOOL STEEL ROLLER BEARINGS WHEELS AND NOSE OF THE CAM E.M.D OILING HOLE IN THEM. There’s even a bushing available!
Instead of tiny roller bearings too! We use them on SOLID ROLLER HYBRID CAMS!
With 250# on the seat! And over 750# over the nose!! As for lift of them cam’s ?? Nothing under .690 lift. And up to a little over 800 lift!! The next fix is bit the bullet and call T an D roller rocker company. And get the DRAG PACK ROCKER SYSTEM FOR YOUR Gen3 Hemi. Then get BILLET MAIN CAP’S too! By far! The best production block is the AKA B.G.E Block!! Period. That’s a 2/3-1 Ton truck 6.4 Hemi. Dates of production is 2014- RIGHT NOW. PS. The heads on these engines. Are t-356-5. Sodium filled Ext valves, hollow stem int valves too! PS. This block and heads are were the Chrysler corporation hid the extra cost of giving us the HellCat, Demon and all our SuperCharged engine for the gear heads!! With this three things I gave you. We have push these engines to over 1800HP. And 1500TQ! On many Turbo Charged street driven engines! You can build a 1000hp daily driver, with a kennybell 3.2l screw charger, your stock head castings, forged rods,forged pistons @ 9.6-10.2 compression. The right small cam, 230 int@050. 242 ext@050. With a 112-114lc, wth 4-6* advanced on int!!
Gen3 Hemi loves tighter Lobe center! PERIOD!!!! Screw charged especially!!
And N/A too! Steven @ B.C.M.

 

[Burla]

I don't have the answer to that. I know it has been theorized year after year that this has taken place, and year after year we have examples of hemi tick even 5 gen. I would say a lot less of 5 gens tick, but some do for sure. I think time will tell that story even if it was redesigned. I know a bunch of people where saying that 2016 the issue was fixed period, but enter the next couple years and clearly this did not happen, just as many 16's are ticking as other 4 gen groups, for some reason they say 2011 was the worst, I don't know the validity of that or not. I'd just say this, you either have it or you don't, if you don't then hemi's are sick engines with crazy HP and longevity to be had. If you are considering a new hemi and that's why the question, I am sorry I have no info on that. Usually alpar is up to every change on the ram hemi's, I must admit I haven't looked.

 

[Burla]

Are we not true gear heads? Gen2 Hemi’s BURN UP push rod tips! Did we trash the Gen 2 Hemi for that ??? NO ! We fixed or modify it to correct the little quirks. Just think? If we throw out the Gen 2 Hemi’s, We would not have the fastest, most powerful top fuel engines in the world ! Period. P.S look at the first Gen 2 Hemi’s made by Chrysler corporation, and now look at the latest and greatest version of that Gen 2 based Hemi??
It looks basically the same, other than all the bling! And being made in all aluminum! SO WE GEAR HEADS DELIGHT IN FIXING THE QUIRKS OF OUR FAVORITE MOPARS!!
LONG LIVE THE GEN 3 HEMI!!
PSS. Johnson lifter corporation. Has had a fix for this for quit a few years now. We use there limited travel plunder, With pin oiled TOOL STEEL ROLLER BEARINGS WHEELS AND NOSE OF THE CAM E.M.D OILING HOLE IN THEM. There’s even a bushing available!
Instead of tiny roller bearings too! We use them on SOLID ROLLER HYBRID CAMS!
With 250# on the seat! And over 750# over the nose!! As for lift of them cam’s ?? Nothing under .690 lift. And up to a little over 800 lift!! The next fix is bit the bullet and call T an D roller rocker company. And get the DRAG PACK ROCKER SYSTEM FOR YOUR Gen3 Hemi. Then get BILLET MAIN CAP’S too! By far! The best production block is the AKA B.G.E Block!! Period. That’s a 2/3-1 Ton truck 6.4 Hemi. Dates of production is 2014- RIGHT NOW. PS. The heads on these engines. Are t-356-5. Sodium filled Ext valves, hollow stem int valves too! PS. This block and heads are were the Chrysler corporation hid the extra cost of giving us the HellCat, Demon and all our SuperCharged engine for the gear heads!! With this three things I gave you. We have push these engines to over 1800HP. And 1500TQ! On many Turbo Charged street driven engines! You can build a 1000hp daily driver, with a kennybell 3.2l screw charger, your stock head castings, forged rods,forged pistons @ 9.6-10.2 compression. The right small cam, 230 int@050. 242 ext@050. With a 112-114lc, wth 4-6* advanced on int!!
Gen3 Hemi loves tighter Lobe center! PERIOD!!!! Screw charged especially!!
And N/A too! Steven @ B.C.M.

I don't need the power, Id rather have the longevity. I'm an old guy with so many country chores if I had to list it would read like Gone with the Wind. I don't know the %, but maybe as many as the past 50% of guys who recently swapped cam lifters had their hemi tick right back again. Sorry I have no romance for that ****, I do like your positivity and energy though. Where were you today when this old man finishing bucking the 12th cedar I felled last week? On to the next chore, hopefully it wont be a cam job.

 

[Wild one]

Are we not true gear heads? Gen2 Hemi’s BURN UP push rod tips! Did we trash the Gen 2 Hemi for that ??? NO ! We fixed or modify it to correct the little quirks. Just think? If we throw out the Gen 2 Hemi’s, We would not have the fastest, most powerful top fuel engines in the world ! Period. P.S look at the first Gen 2 Hemi’s made by Chrysler corporation, and now look at the latest and greatest version of that Gen 2 based Hemi??
It looks basically the same, other than all the bling! And being made in all aluminum! SO WE GEAR HEADS DELIGHT IN FIXING THE QUIRKS OF OUR FAVORITE MOPARS!!
LONG LIVE THE GEN 3 HEMI!!
PSS. Johnson lifter corporation. Has had a fix for this for quit a few years now. We use there limited travel plunder, With pin oiled TOOL STEEL ROLLER BEARINGS WHEELS AND NOSE OF THE CAM E.M.D OILING HOLE IN THEM. There’s even a bushing available!
Instead of tiny roller bearings too! We use them on SOLID ROLLER HYBRID CAMS!
With 250# on the seat! And over 750# over the nose!! As for lift of them cam’s ?? Nothing under .690 lift. And up to a little over 800 lift!! The next fix is bit the bullet and call T an D roller rocker company. And get the DRAG PACK ROCKER SYSTEM FOR YOUR Gen3 Hemi. Then get BILLET MAIN CAP’S too! By far! The best production block is the AKA B.G.E Block!! Period. That’s a 2/3-1 Ton truck 6.4 Hemi. Dates of production is 2014- RIGHT NOW. PS. The heads on these engines. Are t-356-5. Sodium filled Ext valves, hollow stem int valves too! PS. This block and heads are were the Chrysler corporation hid the extra cost of giving us the HellCat, Demon and all our SuperCharged engine for the gear heads!! With this three things I gave you. We have push these engines to over 1800HP. And 1500TQ! On many Turbo Charged street driven engines! You can build a 1000hp daily driver, with a kennybell 3.2l screw charger, your stock head castings, forged rods,forged pistons @ 9.6-10.2 compression. The right small cam, 230 int@050. 242 ext@050. With a 112-114lc, wth 4-6* advanced on int!!
Gen3 Hemi loves tighter Lobe center! PERIOD!!!! Screw charged especially!!
And N/A too! Steven @ B.C.M.

All good points,but totally unrealistic for 99.9% of Hemi owners.Nobody is going to spring for T&D shaft rockers or the Johnson lifters in a street engine,the costs are prohibitive.Your idea of a daily driver 1,000 hp engine is good on paper,but is cost prohibitive and won't live for 100,000 + miles on 7,000+ mile oil changes:BTW you can't put a Kenny Bell blower on a truck,with-out modifying the firewall .I have to agree with Mike,your energy is captivating,but your ideas and tips are totally unrealistic and cost probitive for the average owner

 

[Jtblackram]

Thanks for posting that brother, people that bash him don't get that the jist of what he says is 100% accurate. Maybe he missed some stuff, but when you view 30 lifters and you can see there are lubrication issues, the **** aint getting oil. It is either simply not getting oil, or the oil that hits the lifters is inadequate to keep the lifter lifting.

It seams like lubrication strategies can at least help this issue, especially when added to the posts found by jetblackram. This guy has been building engines for decades and is an engineer. The elusive "expert" needed to weigh in on this issue has been found. If you don't believe uncle tony, and you don't believe ram forum members experiences in the tick threads, then maybe you will believe the expert below. All roads lead to the same location, all three opinions and experiences above all validate each other.

Uncle tony definitely makes some valid points, and i do believe lack of lubrication is a cause of why the failure is so prevalent. There are a few flaws in his argument tho, when he pours the oil like that he isnt pressurizing it at 25-30-40 psi like we are when we drive. Not to mention the oil wouldnt just dribble into nothing off the lifter, it would carry down the lifter bore and spit onto the cam. And the angle of the lifters hasnt changed since the hemi came back in 03. The only major change since 03 with these engines besides adding MDS in 06 was adding VVT in 09. Ive been thinking that the VVT along with the lifters themselves and possibly the valve spring pressure, in addition to a lack of oil is causing this failure, not just lack of oil alone. Chrysler has made changes to the design of the lifters since but time can only tell if these changes really are what the hemi needed

for what its worth, i think tony knows what he is talking about in terms of lack of oil pressure, but i dont think he is 100 percent accurate here as if the oil flow was as bad as he thinks it is in that demonstration, cams would wear out immediately, they wouldnt be able to go 50 miles, much less 100k before failure.

 

[tfeni52355]

If it aint broke fix it til it is? I wouldn't be in favor of that strategy. Too often big jobs like cam/lifters are accompanied by issues.

Couldn’t agree more. I’ll be doing a UOA on every oil change and keep running Redline since I’m at 67K miles now. First UOA (at 64K miles) came back with good news on wear.

One question that comes to mind is around the statement of lifter/cam getting “more oil” in MDS mode.
If that’s the case should I stop turning MDS off every time I get in my truck?

 

[Burla]

Couldn’t agree more. I’ll be doing a UOA on every oil change and keep running Redline since I’m at 67K miles now. First UOA (at 64K miles) came back with good news on wear.

One question that comes to mind is around the statement of lifter/cam getting “more oil” in MDS mode.
If that’s the case should I stop turning MDS off every time I get in my truck?

One man's opinion on this, but I don't prefer mds. But, in those who support mds I am more of an old timer and just don't prefer new things. I turned off mds with tow haul everytime I got into the truck for like 9 years, and it wasn't because of mds but because of rfe shudder, and th corrected that with shift points and increased line pressure. I changed fluids in my rfe to something more robust, the shudder disappeared and no need for TH all the time as when I had shudder. But I still like using it anyhow when I think about it. I see no reason not to use TH to kill mds, or even manual shift down one. If that kills mds without a tune, why not?

 

[Burla]

I think uncle tony brings out the best of the internet. Ideas brought forward that are seriously challenged and vetted by a large group. Uncle Tony wasn't right on everything but he wasn't wrong on everything either. I wont get into the minutia, but there is plenty of meat in his theories when added to that engine builder and engineers assay on worn cam metal, that suggests ram owners should be looking at the oil formulas to aid in the lubrication of hemi cam/lifters. My only caution is be careful of those additives with shaky science, oil thickners and chlorinated additives are not long term solutions.

 

[Joe Merchak]

I know we all want to have a truck the last forever but we are not unique in the truck market with the hemi and engine issues. My nephew works at ford as a service tech and he is always telling me how he is replacing cams on the ecoboost and coyote motors due MDS and stop/start in F150s. I dont know anyone that owns or works at chevy but I bet they have issue with their LS lines as well since they have the same technology. It comes down to a few things

A - Government fuel and emission laws that require these features like MDS and stop/start.
B - The vast amount of this type of vehicle sold by each manufacture each year. Unless we stop buying all these trucks each year they don't see the need to redesign the engines to solves these types of problems.
C - Our throw away society. I have a friend who sells new Rams and here in New Jersey, 80-90% of his trade-in of Rams are only a few years old and under 100K miles. Manufactures know this so what incentive do they have to fix something if the majority of the people buying the new truck dont keep them long enough to encounter the issue.
D - Manufactures are trying to squeeze more miles out of a oil change, why? In older V8 you did the oil every 3k miles. Yes oil is better today but the engines are working alot hard today as well.


Some of us had to replace the cams and lifters and some of us did not. I personally had a 2004 1500 with a Hemi that had over 150k miles on it and it never ticked. My 2018 only has 17K miles on it and is as quiet as it can be. My Boss has a 15 and his hemi is perfectly quiet. His brother works for one of the largest city here in NJ in the fleet department. They have hundreds of hemi powered vehicles of all years and miles and he has only had to replace a few cam/lifter and they were on vehicles that did not get regular maintenance for certain reasons. He told my boss and I if you change your oil with a good quality oil every 3k (standard oil, 5k for full synthetic) miles you engine will last and not have any issues. He has seen hemis with 1000+ hours of idle time, so I trust what he says.

I have Ram change my oil with full synthetic every 5K mile or every 6 months which ever comes first. My first Ram lasted 150K this way and I hope my 18 will do the same.

I am glad there are guys like Tony out there spreading knowledge and bringing light to a problem. Until the manufacture decide to fix a issue permanently the best defense we have is regular maintenance.