Hemi cam & lifter issues—does Uncle Tony have a point?

[RamInfo]

Ran across this today and found it interesting. Apparently this guy does a lot of YT presentations and is well known. Does he have a valid point on why some hemis eat cams & lifters?


DG

 

[Brandon-w]

Absolutely!!! If you can't getting enough oil deflection you kill cams.. One of the main reasons when I was working in the engine shop why We turned up the stationary Chev 350 engines up from 1800 to 2200 rpm. They'd eat cams Given they were prone to wear being solid tappet not roller but still oil is life or death. Another member pointed out on here a week ago with this video and was curious if one were to drill very small Holes in the oil galley that is blocking the cam from getting oil if it would feed a nice mist of oil to the cam and save it from failure. Seems like a simple Solution. Had I known this in November when I did my cam I likely wouldx have tried it.

 

[Tach_tech]

Holy smokes, this video is being posted every other day on this forum.

 

[Octane]

Think I'll put a chevy engine in my Ram. Cause everyone knows old chevys never die...they just run faster.

 

[Brandon-w]

Think I'll put a chevy engine in my Ram. Cause everyone knows old chevys never die...they just run faster.

Ohh you know the secret to make a dodge fast. [emoji48][emoji50]

 

[Octane]

Ohh you know the secret to make a dodge fast. [emoji48][emoji50]

Put chevy hubcaps on a dodge? Lol

 

[Burla]

this is sticky in garage section, we knew this would happen, but it is a sticky in garage section because it is a problem across generations so Smiley put it there. Discuss here or there, more posts over there, and yes Tony has great points. When a bunch of lifters in one engine are scuffed like that, we need more research, we need to start posting pics of lifters as they have been swapped. To what extent this is verify or debunk Tony, my theory is this will verify Tony's findings.

maybe @Tach_Tech can let us know how the sides of the lifters look when they are being swapped.

 

[GsRAM]

maybe @Tach_Tech can let us know how the sides of the lifters look when they are being swapped.

100% agreed. I'd be very interested in hearing his take and experience on this issue. I find his posts to be credible/mechanically sound and he adds value to these forums.

 

[Tach_tech]

I’ll have to look next time we have one in the shop. Most of the time though the roller is seized and ground down. Usually if there’s any damage on the sides of the roller it’s because the roller was ground down so far that the cam lobe was now contacting the side of the roller. I know I’ve heard people say the lifters rotate sideways in the bore sometimes but I’ve yet to see that happen. Usually looks like this.

 

[Dodge 1500 4X4]

Maybe the scuffs in the bore are because of the roller being seized and the cam lobe hitting it with unequal pressure causing it to scrub in the bore, how are the lifters with undamaged rollers, and I agree more research that needs to be documented.

 

[pacofortacos]

Maybe the scuffs are because of the lifter moving in the same direction under the same force for millions of times.
He never saw that in old engines because the lifters rotated.

I would expect to see a shiny spot on the thrust side.

Oh well here are my thoughts. Without having an actual short block in front of me, I can only go by what I can find online.


It's a shame he tries so hard, but there are a few glaring issues with his explanation.
Just to start with is his statement, that when you put in a new camshaft that you have to run it at 2000 rpms to get oil on it.
Wrong on most every aspect. With old flat tappet and old non roller camshafts you had to break them in at 2000 rpms - so that they would spin and get a good wear pattern and not trash the cam. Nothing to do with oil splash as the new lifter had a special break in lube applied during install and the lifters were bathed in oil as was the cam with oil drain back on many engines - though splash oil didn't hurt.
Roller cams require zero break in.

Second - his scuff marks - well a tall lifter being pushed to the side (time after time after time) it will polish the metal on the thrust side most likely. Again unlike old tappets, the roller lifters do not rotate in the bores. Lack of EP additives in the oil is probably the main culprit there.
Also I wish I had a block here to see, but from what I gather via research is the lifter actually gets oil from 2 sources.
Main oil is up through the head, to the rockers and down through the pushrods (aka slant six oiling - and not my favorite way).
But also there is an oil galley in the lifter bore, that from what I can tell has oil during MDS mode and shuts off oil during non-MDS mode. (Again, I wish I had a block to confirm the galley runs to all lifters and it in fact works like that via the MDS solenoids). So during MDS operation the area of the lifter that he says has no oil would just be bathed in oil

This is getting long. In closing the cam being moved up higher wasn't a mistake - it was suggested by the designers of the 426 hemi elephant motor.

I have also seen pictures of pitted cams - this can only happen due to a bad metal or something in the oil ruining the camshaft - maybe very acidic due to short runs and long oil change intervals? Pitting can not be caused by a "lack" of oil.

Supposedly, GM also has had similar failures with their AFM engine (ie. MDS)

Oh well these are my thoughts.

 

[Travelin Ram]

@pacofortacos I have similar thoughts, I see it as a QC issue with inconsistencies in the lifter manufacturing. Weak bearings or tolerance off optimal.

I don’t believe any modern engine design depends on splash lubrication for the cam. And even if we assume splash matters, at idle speed there’s enough rotational velocity at the crank to toss oil everywhere, that little cast tube notwithstanding.

Do I think lube matters? Yes I do, if you have a bearing on the edge of acceptability then there is less ability to withstand a thin oil film situation and it needs all the help it can get. I also will never run mine to use 100% of the OLM. I change it early to get the contaminants out and reduce the potential for shearing down the VI additives in the oil.

Unfortunately at the end of the day if those lifters are inconsistent in quality that’s beyond the owner’s control. And I don’t see any reason why FCA would be motivated to give us a lifter good for 500k miles. After all, they want to sell you another vehicle.

 

[buddy guy]

This is all very interesting reading. In regards to FCA not wanting to design a 500k mile lifter..or increase the QC on lifters, somewhat.true but...on the other hand, if that was the case, why isn't there a rash of similar issues amongst all FCA engines not just the 5.7? I think its the above reasons, plus design, plus oil weight for fuel economy reasons.

I too will change my oil far earlier than the OLM indicates even though I'm running synth from Mopar. It equates to 2 oil changes per yr versus 1 on my driving schedule.

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

 

[vdemarco]

But they (fca) redesigned the cam and fixed the issue, that is why the problem has stopped.

the issue only occurs for 2009-2016. using a higher quality oil seems overall like a very good idea regardless.

 

[Burla]

A lot was made about his missing the oil galley, but I didn't think that was the point whether or not there is a galley there, but if the lifters are getting adequate lubrication. I couldn't believe anyone actually thinking these lifters are being adequately lubricated. Warm idle tick in our engines that have hemi tick is the clear evidence these lifters do not get adequate lubrication. Another one would be the high wear numbers we get across the board as far as hemi's go, even in hemi's with no tick.

I know paco says lack of EP additives is part of the deal, and we know when we add a formula with high ep additives it does "fix" this, but point being that is a flaw, you are not supposed to need high EP additives for perpendicular force, other engines don't require this. This is all a great conversation to have, crack open the egg.

 

[buddy guy]

But they (fca) redesigned the cam and fixed the issue, that is why the problem has stopped.

the issue only occurs for 2009-2016. using a higher quality oil seems overall like a very good idea regardless.

What makes you think it has stopped?[emoji1]

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[16RamHemi]

But they (fca) redesigned the cam and fixed the issue, that is why the problem has stopped.

the issue only occurs for 2009-2016. using a higher quality oil seems overall like a very good idea regardless.

hope you are being funny and not trolling. There is literally a guy on here with a 2019 with around 21k miles that just had his motor replaced due to this. But keep drinking the koolaid.

 

[Burla]

Maybe just a little misinformed is all. We will see as these engines are hitting 70-100k miles. Another predictor will be uoa's, it is no coincidence that nearly every hemi is a high wear engine and we happen to have this issue. Hand in hand those two lovers are yoda would say.

everyone is going to have a slightly different take on this, those of us who were snake bit by hemi tick will be a little sensitive to it.

 

[GIJoe2010]

So, depending on how your motor is running, tick or no tick, once you start to hit the sweet spot if 70-100000 miles as @Burla mentioned, would it not be crazy to replace cam and lifters as preventative maintenance . . . especially if you intend to keep your truck for a long time?

I’m currently sitting just over 80k, and to be honest, this is really my only true concern in regards to longevity and reliability in keeping my truck.

 

[Burla]

If it aint broke fix it til it is? I wouldn't be in favor of that strategy. Too often big jobs like cam/lifters are accompanied by issues.