Lifter Hell

[Jesco]

Hey everyone.. New here and have a couple questions regarding lifters and how they should or shouldn't look if you are looking down the pushrod hole... I have a 2013 ram 1500 5.7. Started misfiring and all the normal signs of lifters.. Usually I work on my own stuff never take to shop but I've never done a project this size so unfortunately I listened to everyone and took it to a shop.. Paid $2000 to replace cam lifters cam phaser they say no problem will be ready 4 days.. 2 months go by still haven't started after the 4th month I go in as it sits in parking lot they proceed to tell me it's done but.. It's loud and is leaking around head.. I give them couple wks, then I went myself in their parking lot changed head gaskets, they installed one the had been bent so wasn't sealing but thyit amazingly started up but the ticking was 109 times worse than when I dropped off so I tore it all down again found rubber boot on spark plugs assuming from socket.. Connectors broken wires twisted together and then I scope lifters from the pushrod slots I see looks like clips down on some and none on others also assuming the rubber from what they sit in is blocking part of the hole of pushrod... I'm attaching pics am I crazy or what but I have looked at as many videos, pictures that I can find and can't find anything to make me feel like this place didn't stick it so far up my a*:* I can taste it!

 

[Ken226]

Some lifters look different than others.

My best guess is that they only replaced the bad ones, and they replaced them with some kinda aftermarket lifters.

You'll probably need to ask them to find out what they used. Then either tow it to a competent shop, or tow it home and start over.

If the cam was wiped and metal circulated through the engine, replacement is safer than repair.

Or, full rebuild.



Edit:

Looks like I was mistaken.

I looked at a couple used OEM lifter sets on eBay. The non-MDS oem lifters have the 5 cornered wire type retainers and the MDS lifters have the snap-ring type.

It's still worth asking them what they used though. I've yet to hear of a case of aftermarket lifters actually working in a Hemi.

 

[EdGs]

$2K for just cam and lifters seems a little low to me. At least, I'm not sure they used OE parts.

OE lifters are about $900 per set, and cam is $500, plus OE head gaskets are $140 ish and cam phaser is $300 or so. Not alot of room for labor in there, IMO.

Plus those pics, the way the doube snap rings are offset makes me wonder. On the OE lifters I got, the double snap rings are lined up, same as @Ken226's pic.

One of my MDS lifters:

 

[Jesco]

I went through everything mad sure pushrod were seated correctly, redid timing, put it all back together and fired right up but still has noise this doesn't sound like the "hemi tic" I used stethoscope didn't hear anything from timing chain cover, or valve covers, but when I touch the injectors I can hear it, I took video you can hear it from under hood down by tire and underneath sounds the loudest.. I'm definitely no mechanic by any means.. Not sure next direction to go lol, I do know when I dropped it off it didn't have this sound. I'll try to get video uploaded

 

[Wild one]

I went through everything mad sure pushrod were seated correctly, redid timing, put it all back together and fired right up but still has noise this doesn't sound like the "hemi tic" I used stethoscope didn't hear anything from timing chain cover, or valve covers, but when I touch the injectors I can hear it, I took video you can hear it from under hood down by tire and underneath sounds the loudest.. I'm definitely no mechanic by any means.. Not sure next direction to go lol, I do know when I dropped it off it didn't have this sound. I'll try to get video uploaded

Video in the first post that's basically identical to the way i clean the injectors.

Injector cleaning

Supposed to go cold and snow for the next 10 days,so i figured it was a good time to pull the injectors and give them a cleaning.Got them soaking in injector cleaner,where i'll probably leave them for a couple days before using some carb and choke cleaner to wash them out using my old homemade...

www.ramforum.com

 

[EdGs]

The way your pictures of the back side of the yoke and lifters look, it makes it seem like some aren't sitting right in the yokes, or they are turned in the yoke?

It might just be the camera angle, though.

1 - 3 - 5 - 7


8 - 6 - 4 - 2


I noticed that the lifter bottoms are machined different, one will fit very loose in the yoke if fitted in the wrong hole. Not sure which, I will try to check tonight.

Can you take more pics of the back of the yokes and lifters, and note which cylinder they are from?

 

[Jesco]

Yeah they definitely weren't sitting all the way in like the pictures you posted, that is what I could have sworn why it was making the noise so took it all down made sure they were like the picture you posted.. Not sure how they would be pushed that far out. I thought pushrods might to long but compared to the originals and same size. Could it be anything from the mds selenoids under the intake manifold? Wasn't sure if it was coming from those.

 

[EdGs]

They might move in and out in the yokes in normal use.

Mine are brand new, just installed, and no heads, pushrods, or rockers installed yet.

I did not try to push them towards the camshaft either.

I would definately ask the shop what brand lifters they used, and if they replaced all or some. Alot of aftermarket lifters don't have a good rep as I understand it.

Some are really noisy, esp. the Chinesium ones.

Upload your video to youtube, and put the link in a reply here.

Wishing you the best, hang in there.

 

[Jesco]

I found a picture of them before I removed them, you can see they aren't slid all the way back

 

[EdGs]

You might have aftermarket lifters, those yokes look different, not necessarily a bad thing, but the lifters might move in and out in normal operation, as I said.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me will chime in on this.

 

[Marshall]

I went through everything mad sure pushrod were seated correctly, redid timing, put it all back together and fired right up but still has noise this doesn't sound like the "hemi tic" I used stethoscope didn't hear anything from timing chain cover, or valve covers, but when I touch the injectors I can hear it, I took video you can hear it from under hood down by tire and underneath sounds the loudest.. I'm definitely no mechanic by any means.. Not sure next direction to go lol, I do know when I dropped it off it didn't have this sound. I'll try to get video uploaded

Exhaust manifold leaking?
What does your invoice say they did, Can they write one? or just take money for crappy work.

 

[Jesco]

I didn't get an invoice, but they changed lifpushrods, cam phaser, cam shaft,.. I have been reading post and watching videos trying to find something that sounds similar, to me I don't think it's a knock It doesn't sound like the lifter tick or exhaust leak, when I watched an injector ticking video i thought it sounded the closest to it, then Code P0443 canister purge valve circuit malfunction came up.. Watched some videos on this and this is what I'm hearing so went out started truck and disconnected it and nope no difference lol, also unplugged each coil and injector one at a time nothing really changed still don't get sound with stethoscope when touch valve covers, oil pan timing chain cover, not smoking or leaking anything anywhere it does sound like it is running alil rough but that is only code

 

[Marshall]

no invoice and you gave them money?
Not a chance in hell I would do that.

 

[EdGs]

Just looked at my old lifters, and the flats ground into the base of the lifter are different.

MDS lifter has narrower flat, MDS on left:

So, the MDS lifter is thicker flat-to-flat, and won't fit in the tray where a non-MDS lifter goes.

The non-MDS lifter will fit in the tray where an MDS lifter goes, but it is a very loose fit.

 

[Hagar1]

Don't know if it is a factor or not but I've noticed that there is some "wear" in the lifter trays after some miles / kilometers. The life of the roller and more importantly the cam rely on the roller running exactly parallel to the cam, even being "off" by a few degrees can contribute to cam failure. The lifter trays should be made with a better material.

 

[crackerjack1957]

Don't know if it is a factor or not but I've noticed that there is some "wear" in the lifter trays after some miles / kilometers. The life of the roller and more importantly the cam rely on the roller running exactly parallel to the cam, even being "off" by a few degrees can contribute to cam failure. The lifter trays should be made with a better material.

Gen 3 Hemi Lifter Trays

Machined billet aluminum lifter trays for your Gen 3 hemi, help to protect against lifter rotation at high rpm that can be caused by factory plastic lifter trays. The "Factory Mopar / Johnson Short & Standard Travel" version is for factory lifters and Johnson Lifters that measure .728-.729"...

aadperformance.com

Notice the lifters they are designed for in the above link

 

[EdGs]

Don't know if it is a factor or not but I've noticed that there is some "wear" in the lifter trays after some miles / kilometers. The life of the roller and more importantly the cam rely on the roller running exactly parallel to the cam, even being "off" by a few degrees can contribute to cam failure. The lifter trays should be made with a better material.

Yes, my 200,000 mile lifter trays held the lifters more loosely, for sure.

Perhaps there are several contributing factors of varying degrees that lead to cam/lifter failure.

Gen 3 Hemi Lifter Trays

Machined billet aluminum lifter trays for your Gen 3 hemi, help to protect against lifter rotation at high rpm that can be caused by factory plastic lifter trays. The "Factory Mopar / Johnson Short & Standard Travel" version is for factory lifters and Johnson Lifters that measure .728-.729"...

aadperformance.com

Notice the lifters they are designed for in the above link

View attachment 573494

Those aluminum trays look awesome!

 

[Hagar1]

Yes, my 200,000 mile lifter trays held the lifters more loosely, for sure.

Perhaps there are several contributing factors of varying degrees that lead to cam/lifter failure.


Those aluminum trays look awesome!

They do indeed look like they would be great. The dollar difference really hurts thought for us up here.

 

[EdGs]

They do indeed look like they would be great. The dollar difference really hurts thought for us up here.

It hurts down here, too. Especially since I've dropped 5k on my repair.

Am I correct that they are only for non-MDS lifters?

I didn't have my calipers or a micrometer to measure the differences in the lifter measurements.

 

[Hagar1]

It hurts down here, too. Especially since I've dropped 5k on my repair.

Am I correct that they are only for non-MDS lifters?

I didn't have my calipers or a micrometer to measure the differences in the lifter measurements.

His verbiage sort of implies that they are for non mds. At least that is the way I read it.