Longevity of new Power Wagons

[Overlander]

I think you misinterpret my post. I'm fully aware that things wear out--my own body can attest to that! I also realize that vehicles are made well. My concern is that the technology in the cars/trucks can't be fixed by the average person and are dated as soon as they are sold. If my warranty runs out, and I blow a water pump. I can replace it--on the trail or at home. On the other hand, if my computer has a gremlin, I can't do anything about except rely on someone else to figure it out. Not whining here, just contemplating.

I've done a lot of wrenching in my 49 years. In fact, other than warranty service and a wheel bearing that I didn't have a press large enough to get off the shaft, I've never paid for work on my vehicle. In my experience the advent of electronics has made the process easier, not more complicated. As long as you understand the system, have a working knowledge of electrical circuitry, and some basic guidance (internet, factory manual, etc) it's usually a pretty simple repair process. Though not necessarily inexpensive, but this it the tradeoff for performance and features.

In my experience the things that have been very difficult to diagnose and fix have been purely mechanical. Driveline vibrations, for example. Is it tire, wheel bearing, u-joint? Or is it the worn out front differential mount that took you a year to figure out? Similarly, a timing chain or lifter is much more difficult and time consuming to fix than a bad BCM.

So my perception is twofold: a) the electronics themselves are not necessarily harder to repair or diagnose (or less reliable for that matter) and b) while I don't believe that Ram is necessarily at the top of the reliability index, I also don't perceive them to be a bad or problematic brand.

Continuing down this rabbit hole a bit further, I think the real problem in reliability these days is emissions/fuel economy and not electronics per se. Take for example the disaster that has become the diesel particulate filter. This took an extremely reliable and simple system and made it fragile. Or the move to small displacement high pressure turbos. They work well when new and are peppy to drive but you're simply not going to get 300k out of one like you could a large displacement mill that isn't force fed. MDS would be another good example of complicating things with very marginal gains yet long-term durability implications.

 

[Buttyman]

I've done a lot of wrenching in my 49 years. In fact, other than warranty service and a wheel bearing that I didn't have a press large enough to get off the shaft, I've never paid for work on my vehicle. In my experience the advent of electronics has made the process easier, not more complicated. As long as you understand the system, have a working knowledge of electrical circuitry, and some basic guidance (internet, factory manual, etc) it's usually a pretty simple repair process. Though not necessarily inexpensive, but this it the tradeoff for performance and features.

In my experience the things that have been very difficult to diagnose and fix have been purely mechanical. Driveline vibrations, for example. Is it tire, wheel bearing, u-joint? Or is it the worn out front differential mount that took you a year to figure out?

So my perception is twofold: a) the electronics themselves are not necessarily harder to repair or diagnose (or less reliable for that matter) and b) while I don't believe that Ram is necessarily at the top of the reliability index, I also don't perceive them to be a bad or problematic brand.

Continuing down this rabbit hole a bit further, I think the real problem in reliability these days is emissions/fuel economy and not electronics per se. Take for example the disaster that has become the diesel particulate filter. This took an extremely reliable and simple system and made it fragile. Or the move to small displacement high pressure turbos. They work well when new and are peppy to drive but you're simply not going to get 300k out of one like you could a large displacement mill that isn't force fed. MDS would be another good example of complicating things with very marginal gains yet long-term durability implications.

Points well taken. Love my PW by the way. Thank you.

 

[Meister]

All new vehicles are disposable items. Get over it.

Wish I had the income to consider a 60k truck disposable

 

[Fatbob Frank]

Pick a vehicle that isn't tech dependent these days.
(I'll wait...)
Everything is one short circuit or EMP burst away from being an expensive paperweight.
Even motorcycles are slaves to it.
You can't do very much to a bike anymore without bumping up against it.

My 2014 JKU was the last vehicle I owned that I did all the work on myself.
All the services and offroad goodies I put on it were done by me.
It never saw the dealership again till I traded it off.
But a bad computer or sensor could have rendered it useless.
It's just the world we live in any more...

 

[SkeeterBait]

Pick a vehicle that isn't tech dependent these days.
(I'll wait...)
Everything is one short circuit or EMP burst away from being an expensive paperweight.
Even motorcycles are slaves to it.
You can't do very much to a bike anymore without bumping up against it.

My 2014 JKU was the last vehicle I owned that I did all the work on myself.
All the services and offroad goodies I put on it were done by me.
It never saw the dealership again till I traded it off.
But a bad computer or sensor could have rendered it useless.
It's just the world we live in any more...

Let's just stay away from any "EMP" bursts...!!

But these days' we are certainly slaves to technology. The "good 'ole days" are gone...

 

[Trailmaker]

1956 just burns a little oil...
you have to get out to lock in the hubs.
No sway bar disconnect
But she still is a beast.

 

[Grand Mesa]

Wish I had the income to consider a 60k truck disposable

$6,000 of that $60,000 vaporizes within an instant and they're smiling as it happens.

A brand-new car loses somewhere between 9–11% of its value the moment you drive off the lot. So, with a "$60,000" new vehicle, you’re basically throwing "$6,000" out the car window as you drive the car home for the first time!

https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/car-depreciation

 

[Trailmaker]

$6,000 of that $60,000 vaporizes within an instant and they're smiling as it happens.

A brand-new car loses somewhere between 9–11% of its value the moment you drive off the lot. So, with a "$60,000" new vehicle, you’re basically throwing "$6,000" out the car window as you drive the car home for the first time!

https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/car-depreciation

So True! I’m waiting for one of these guys that got the 75th edition to trade up so I can buy it used.

 

[Overlander]

$6,000 of that $60,000 vaporizes within an instant and they're smiling as it happens.

A brand-new car loses somewhere between 9–11% of its value the moment you drive off the lot. So, with a "$60,000" new vehicle, you’re basically throwing "$6,000" out the car window as you drive the car home for the first time!

https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/car-depreciation

Not for me! ;-) I could absolutely flip mine for a profit off the lot. But I got a 1 in a million deal.

I've actually played both sides of this coin. And while I agree with Dave on many things I believe this one is more of a function of income to vehicle cost than it is old vs new. It also is highly dependent upon the desirability for the vehicle you purchased. I once purchased a completely loaded 2008 MDX 'right' and sold it a year later (hated that vehicle) for less than a $3k hit.

If you purchased a brand new 4Runner, for example (and you bought it 'right'), kept it for 3 years, had desirable options, and made it look like new you'd probably experience only 7-10k of depreciation over those years. Very common to see $48k (new) 4Runners going for high 30's/low 40's after that time. Contrast that to 6 year old 100k 4Runner. While it may be lower on the depreciation curve, it's also time for maintenance and repairs. Those things add up quickly, either in time spent wrenching or in dollars at the shop.

I've had nothing but Toyota Land Cruisers for the last decade. And each year I've put many weekends into doing maintenance and thousands of dollars in factory parts. A timing belt job is $900k in parts alone and a full day and a half in the garage. Now to be fair, I'm an over-the-top maintenance geek and follow the 'while I'm in there' philosophy where I replace every wear part I touch. A large part of why I'm buying new this time is that I want a stretch of 5 years or so where I can simply drive and camp. So yeah, my $60k truck will turn into a $35k truck in 5 years/75k. Or maybe my A75 will be a bit more desirable, who knows. But in that time I've also had full warranty coverage and haven't had to spend a dime on anything other that oil, tires, and fuel. Not to mention the greatly reduced risk of a mechanical failure on the trail.

So while it's indisputable that there is a steeper depreciation curve on new, there's also a savings in time and repair cost. You definitely are buying value with new, it just depends on how you prioritize that benefit.

There is definitely a solid argument to buy a 'young' used vehicle. Many say that the 40-60k mark is the sweet spot and I don't disagree. The depreciation curve is typically at the mid point, so maybe 3-4k per year on our trucks. But it's not like the depreciation goes to zero. What you have to look at is the delta in depreciation over a period of time. Say a new truck over 5 years runs 6k average depreciation per year and a 50k truck 3k over five years. If you add in the repairs you will spend you're probably only saving 1,500-2,000 per year. Or $120-160 per month. There is definitely value in this, at least to me. Plus, when you're ready to move on selling a 5 year old 75k mile truck is much easier than selling an 8 year old 150k truck. Though, pivoting back to your Ramsey reference this absolutely can't be a justification to spend beyond your means.

 

[Grand Mesa]

So True! I’m waiting for one of these guys that got the 75th edition to trade up so I can buy it used.

Just wait until their wives tells them that it's just too big. (no pun intended).

I bought my 2016 used. The first owner purchased it right before Christmas on either the 23rd or 24th of 2016 in Arizona. It was traded in on around January 3rd. So the first owner had it for a little over a week. It spent the next 10 months for resale and at auctions. I purchased it in October 2017 out in Utah with extremely low mileage. No customers wanted a used Power Wagon which was sitting out on a lot for months. The Dealership told me that they were planning to auction it off.

 

[Overlander]

Just wait until their wives tells them that it's just too big. (no pun intended).

I bought my 2016 used. The first owner purchased it right before Christmas on either the 23rd or 24th of 2015 in Arizona. It was traded in on around January 3rd. So the first owner had it for a little over a week. It spent the next 10 months for resale and at auctions. I purchased it in October 2016 out in Utah with extremely low mileage. No customers wanted a used Power Wagon which was sitting out on a lot for months. The Dealership told me that they were planning to auction it off.

Wow! They traded it in after under two weeks of ownership? I wonder what they felt they were missing. Maybe they really wanted a Cummins?

 

[danoday]

My statement is probably pointless, but there is hardly anything that sales for retail that resales for retail after some consumption of the product. Considering that about 9 to 12% of a vehicle's cost is OEM profit it kind of makes sense to me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[R1200GS]

Reading about problems in a forum is akin to researching your medical problem on WebMD; both lead to the conclusion that it is fatal and hopeless.

Go to a Toyota forum (the pinnacle of quality, right?) and you'll see a large percentage of the posts about problems too. It's just human nature. People don't post when their truck started perfectly. They post when something didn't work. And then you have to filter out whether it was their fault or a true design/manufacturing flaw and if it is major or minor. Then confirmation bias will take over and you'll read of another occurrence and perceive that the problem is prevalent. All this based upon maybe three posts out of thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of vehicles.

The fact is that most vehicles today are very well made. It's also a fact that mechanical things break. And the third leg to this stool is that dealer mechanics are often not experienced enough to solve the root issue so problems end up getting a life of their own on the forums.

 

[R1200GS]

Reading about problems in a forum is akin to researching your medical problem on WebMD; both lead to the conclusion that it is fatal and hopeless.

Go to a Toyota forum (the pinnacle of quality, right?) and you'll see a large percentage of the posts about problems too. It's just human nature. People don't post when their truck started perfectly. They post when something didn't work. And then you have to filter out whether it was their fault or a true design/manufacturing flaw and if it is major or minor. Then confirmation bias will take over and you'll read of another occurrence and perceive that the problem is prevalent. All this based upon maybe three posts out of thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of vehicles.

The fact is that most vehicles today are very well made. It's also a fact that mechanical things break. And the third leg to this stool is that dealer mechanics are often not experienced enough to solve the root issue so problems end up getting a life of their own on the forums.

When people have a forum to complain about something - warranted or not, they tend to use it. I find this Forum instructive and useful.

 

[David F]

No more depreciation on my driver. That ceased about 50 years ago. Still driving the 41 half ton.