Lookin for Advice on getting Max Clearance, Wheel Travel, with Minimum Lift

[Joes1500]

Reading this I get your point. The rear axle pumpkin will be the lowest point of the vehicle. But in offroading what your saying doesn't make sense because either:

A: you've never been offroading

or

B: you're simplifying the scenario too much and not account for suspension flex. It's almost like your not comprehending how suspension works based on the above statement.

Been off roading plenty. What your not understanding is the only place lifting the front on an independent suspension truck gives you more clearance is in between your lower control arms. Otherwise the middle section of the truck.

That is exactly where the lowest part is on the rear axle.
So again just because the front clears that rut, stump, rock ,etc , doesn't mean the rear axle will.

Independent suspension trucks that go into ruts that are deeper then their tires are big, are really fun to watch.

 

[kurek]

Head west some day and you'll discover other types of terrain than ruts.

 

[Evguy1]

Suspension lift will also improve your breakover angle.

 

[RedSRT4Me]

Been off roading plenty. What your not understanding is the only place lifting the front on an independent suspension truck gives you more clearance is in between your lower control arms. Otherwise the middle section of the truck.

That is exactly where the lowest part is on the rear axle.
So again just because the front clears that rut, stump, rock ,etc , doesn't mean the rear axle will.

Independent suspension trucks that go into ruts that are deeper then their tires are big, are really fun to watch.

I'm not questioning lifting a vehicle. I'm questioning your interpretation of what you're attempting to tell the group.


Your interpretation doesn't ever make a point and your answer blankets the statement that bigger tires is the only way to lift a vehicle.

The last part about being able to clear the front versus the rear is silly. What in the hell are you even talking about? Clearing the obstacle is the only thing the matters.

 

[Joes1500]

I dont understand how you dont understand.
I never said bigger tires is the only way to lift a vehicle. I said it's the only way to get more ground clearance. Two entirely different things.

Go look at the rearend on your truck. Then explain to everyone how a lift kit is going increase the distance from the pumpkin to the ground. The only thing that will increase that distance is larger diameter tires.

Lift kits move the frame away from the center line of the axle unless it's an independent suspension front up to about 3 inches, Then after that there is a drop bracket to move the center section back down to align the half shafts. So your right back where you started. And need larger diameter tires to increase the clearance.

 

[Joes1500]

Just for reference

 

[Joes1500]

Here look at this picture of the rear section of a normal truck. Put as big of a lift kit as you want . Put as long of springs as you want. Raise that frame and body 2 feet if you want.
But the distance from that pumpkin/axle to the ground doesn't increase until you put bigger diameter tires on.

 

[kurek]

I've spent a lot of my life driving the back roads and canyons of Arizona and the overwhelming majority of times that my vehicle has come in contact with the ground other than at the tire it's been at the rocker panel, transmission crossmember, the transfer case skid plate, the bumper and the receiver hitch.

In other words I almost never drag the differential. Generally speaking canyons and riverbottom roads are shaped about like a "V" - I don't mean like an actual V but the tall parts are toward the edge of the trail and the deep parts are what you straddle so when you hear a scrape that's your door, your rocker panel or your steps.

So I don't really care about minimum running ground clearance, that might be important for mud bogs or snow or something but there's not a lot of either of those things in the desert.

 

[RedSRT4Me]

Just for reference

View attachment 236569

Here look at this picture of the rear section of a normal truck. Put as big of a lift kit as you want . Put as long of springs as you want. Raise that frame and body 2 feet if you want.
But the distance from that pumpkin/axle to the ground doesn't increase until you put bigger diameter tires on.

View attachment 236570

I love diagrams

Now back to the matter. Since the rear axle is your main concern this is how we can handle the situation. You've dismissed approach angles due to IFS which we all agree has excellent independent suspension travel versus the solid axle crowd. Then you immediately jump to departure angles stating that the rear axle pumpkin is the lowest point of the vehicle which it is. No disagreement there.

What matters most and you failed to address is your break over angles. Break over angles will determine whether any point of the undercarriage touches the ground. This is where the argument of ground clearance becomes second fiddle.



We can get into caster/camber conversation if you like to increase offroad capability. We can bust out some dusty old slide rulers, graphing calculators or similar to break down some equations to see what obstacles mathematically we can clear. However you want to chop it up.

 

[Kevin petro]

I don't think you mention what size tire you are going to run? If your running the stock tires now then 37's give you a couple more inches of ground clearance. I run 37's with a 1 1/2" body lift and moved the cab back 1 1/4" for no rubbing. Then do a couple of inches in the suspension and you have 4" more ground clearance other than the rear diff which would just have the 2" from larger tires.

I think I'll run 35s (315 70 R17). If the tires get too big it takes too much power to turn them in the soft sand. I don't want to do a body lift. I got some 17" beadlocks from someone who took them off their Ram Rebel for some reason.

 

[Kevin petro]

The differences in those two vehicles abilities stem from Wheelbase. Because the truck is longer there is more room for bottoming. Like Joe's 1500 said tires and wheels that raise the bottom of the vehicle up is the way to go. If you go big enough you may have to use a lift kit for clearance.

It's the front crossmember that is the problem. That has nothing to do with the wheelbase as far as I can see. The suspension geometry has the cross member too low, and the shocks/struts have no resistance so any kind of woop or bounce has the crossmember burying into the ground.

 

[Kevin petro]

You can lift the front all you want on a independent front suspension vehicle. Your still going to have the solid rear axle. The only thing that increases its ground clearance is bigger diameter tires. Doesn't really matter if the front can clear something if back cant.

The rear axle is definitely not the problem. I have been driving an FJ cruiser on 33" tires and the rear axle can drag across dune crests all day and it doesn't matter. The paint on the bottom of the rear axle was worn away long ago and it never bothered me. what is bothering me on the Ram is that the front cross member plows into any bump in the sand larger than 3".

 

[Kevin petro]

I love diagrams

View attachment 236599

At the moment, I don't really care about the front bumper or rear bumper, or the bottom of the truck. All of those will impact the sand and hopefully won't cause too much damager. If the front bumper is hitting the sand a lot, I'll have a ghetto rigged desert bumper fabbed up. I've already had some bash plates and skid plates fabbed up.

 

[Kevin petro]

So to give an update, I discovered that a Thai suspension company called profender makes 2.5 reservoir shocks for the Ram, and there are some in stock in a nearby city. I have ordered the 2.5 shocks for the front, and I'm hoping I can get them to make me a triple bypass shock for the rear. I should have the shocks ready by next weekend.

My next question is, does anyone familiar with adding a hydraulic bump stop to the front of the Ram? I'm going to begin searching for some info on some now.

 

[kurek]

The only front bump stop I have ever seen made specific to the 4th gen Ram is one that Timbren makes & markets for snow plows

 

[Joes1500]

I know Ready lift used to include one with one of their lifts. It's not hydraulic though. It was just a bracket with a bump stop .

 

[Joes1500]

I love diagrams

Now back to the matter. Since the rear axle is your main concern this is how we can handle the situation. You've dismissed approach angles due to IFS which we all agree has excellent independent suspension travel versus the solid axle crowd. Then you immediately jump to departure angles stating that the rear axle pumpkin is the lowest point of the vehicle which it is. No disagreement there.

What matters most and you failed to address is your break over angles. Break over angles will determine whether any point of the undercarriage touches the ground. This is where the argument of ground clearance becomes second fiddle.

View attachment 236599

We can get into caster/camber conversation if you like to increase offroad capability. We can bust out some dusty old slide rulers, graphing calculators or similar to break down some equations to see what obstacles mathematically we can clear. However you want to chop it up.

Didnt dismiss approach angles at all but they are what you just called them, approach angles.

This is different than ground clearance.

And the thing you say matters the most, break over angle, has nothing to do with whether you front center section or rear pumpkin will clear. Since that is what the op is having issues with.

Example, look at big foot the monster truck. You can walk underneath from side to side in the middle. You cant walk underneath front to back.

 

[Joes1500]

How is approach angle going to help you here ?

 

[RedSRT4Me]

How is approach angle going to help you here ?

View attachment 236648

Approach angles will only help in the fact that common sense will help navigate how deep in the rut you can travel or not travel.

If you are in a deep rut in mud, snow or some type of sand and cannot get out, dig yourself two small trenches at a 45° angle, on the easiest side you determine and place the spoils removed into the rut itself. Then drive towards freedom slowly and the truck should drive up and out of the rut. If you've determined the ruts are too deep to drive into try moving to the left or right and drive parallel to the existing ruts. Before entering If you find yourself in a situation where you must traverse a rut try going slow and straddle the rut when possible. If the rut becomes too wide ease into it keeping your truck level and ride on the tire edge or even the sidewall of the tire. Go slow and straddle the rut if possible. Judge the trail over your hood or have your buddy outside of the vehicle to guide you. Keep the truck centered in the rut and as level as possible.

@Joes1500 let me know if you have any other questions. I'd be happy to answer

 

[kurek]

How's diff clearance gonna help you here?







They're both important, but out West approach angle, breakover, departure, rocker panel clearance all matter. Even overhang matters - ask everyone who's lost a headlight to that freakin' tree root sticking out on Log Corral trail in AZ