audio1der
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Filters are cheap; what about buying an extra, cutting it open so you KNOW what you're buying?
Oil Change Mileage
- Thread starter TeamJackson
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Burla
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A lot of good points in this thread have been made. To the point of getting the use out of your oil without over doing it, it matters what oil you put in. Dyno oil generally has less additives (tbn) then synthetic, which is the major factor why they don't last as long. Your TBN is the main protection from high TAN or acid levels. Every oil you use will loose TBN while you are driving it, which in point raises TAN, and at a certain point TAN level can do great harm your engine. The industry generally accepts that your are in danger zone when your TBN falls below 3, and critical TBN levels are between 1 and 2. The point at which these two numbers meet, has been indicated as the maximum useful oil change interval for that type of engine in that type of service. When TAN exceeds TBN, engine wear accelerates at abnormally high rates.
It is really that simple, when you have good TBN it is stupid to change your oil, it is like taking that money and throwing it in the trash. TBN is also the natural detergent that keeps your engine clean and also accounts for some of the additives that help anti wear. Some oils will have a lower TBN then others simply because they use beneficial anti wear additives that may cause a lower initial TBN. But it is not initial TBN that matters (assuming of course that your oil has good TBN), but how fast your TBN decreases over use and what rate it decreases at. In order to find this number out, you really need to be loyal to your oil choice and send it to a lab a couple times and find the sweet spot. Generally speaking we change our oil way too often, and I'm as guilty as anyone on this.
This is totally hypothetical and random, but lets say the typical TBN of dyno oil is 7, and of synthetic is 10, which is about the way it is. The fact is TBN drops dramatically when you first put it in, smarter guys then me know why but I only know that this is a fact.
This is a oil must read, huge list of oils CLICK on yellow arrow and TBN of any oil pops up. Example, Amsoil SS is tbn 12, royal purple TBN is 8.7, Mobil dyno is 8, Valvoline dyno is 6, etc. Literally no synthetic oil has failed, scroll down to bottom of page to see synthetics. Still bummed PQIA hasn't tested Redline yet, but I'm sure it is coming.
Notice the different color bubbles on the right, if it says green then your oil is good. Click the yellow arrow and notice that almost every oil that fails are in considered nuetral by PQIA has low or no TBN. Just because your oil may be green, you still can improve your oil choice by choosing a oil with a higher tbn, anything over 8 is excellent!!
Burla major point is coming, why are you loyal to your brand? If your oil has a high TBN then I would say it is a good choice. If your oil has a low starting TBN like some Valvoline, then why the heck are you loyal to it, marketing? If your oil starts at 6tbn, and you easily loose 2tbn in first couple months, and then you have 1tbn loss before you are in danger zone. There isn't a lot of wiggle room here, TBN is insurance and you are past due on those premiums right after you pay them. Bottom line the most important feature of your oil is TBN, the base and anti wear additives are distant other features and funtions that are great to consider and important to hemi's, but bottom line you need high TBN or your oil is dangerous to your engine. Read the must read link and see where your oils falls in the TBN range. If you use DYNO oil just find one with a high TBN. Pretty much any synthetic will get you a high TBN.
It is really that simple, when you have good TBN it is stupid to change your oil, it is like taking that money and throwing it in the trash. TBN is also the natural detergent that keeps your engine clean and also accounts for some of the additives that help anti wear. Some oils will have a lower TBN then others simply because they use beneficial anti wear additives that may cause a lower initial TBN. But it is not initial TBN that matters (assuming of course that your oil has good TBN), but how fast your TBN decreases over use and what rate it decreases at. In order to find this number out, you really need to be loyal to your oil choice and send it to a lab a couple times and find the sweet spot. Generally speaking we change our oil way too often, and I'm as guilty as anyone on this.
This is totally hypothetical and random, but lets say the typical TBN of dyno oil is 7, and of synthetic is 10, which is about the way it is. The fact is TBN drops dramatically when you first put it in, smarter guys then me know why but I only know that this is a fact.
This is a oil must read, huge list of oils CLICK on yellow arrow and TBN of any oil pops up. Example, Amsoil SS is tbn 12, royal purple TBN is 8.7, Mobil dyno is 8, Valvoline dyno is 6, etc. Literally no synthetic oil has failed, scroll down to bottom of page to see synthetics. Still bummed PQIA hasn't tested Redline yet, but I'm sure it is coming.
Notice the different color bubbles on the right, if it says green then your oil is good. Click the yellow arrow and notice that almost every oil that fails are in considered nuetral by PQIA has low or no TBN. Just because your oil may be green, you still can improve your oil choice by choosing a oil with a higher tbn, anything over 8 is excellent!!
Burla major point is coming, why are you loyal to your brand? If your oil has a high TBN then I would say it is a good choice. If your oil has a low starting TBN like some Valvoline, then why the heck are you loyal to it, marketing? If your oil starts at 6tbn, and you easily loose 2tbn in first couple months, and then you have 1tbn loss before you are in danger zone. There isn't a lot of wiggle room here, TBN is insurance and you are past due on those premiums right after you pay them. Bottom line the most important feature of your oil is TBN, the base and anti wear additives are distant other features and funtions that are great to consider and important to hemi's, but bottom line you need high TBN or your oil is dangerous to your engine. Read the must read link and see where your oils falls in the TBN range. If you use DYNO oil just find one with a high TBN. Pretty much any synthetic will get you a high TBN.
Last edited:
dpinvidic
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Great post by BURLA.
I wanted to know more about TBN, so got this info from Wikipedia.
This is the link to where I copied this from:
Total_Base_Number Explained
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total base number (TBN) is a measure of a lubricant's reserve alkalinity. It is measured in milligrams of potassium hydroxide per gram (mg KOH/g).[citation needed]
TBN determines how effective the control of acids formed will be during the combustion process. The higher the TBN, the more effective it is in suspending wear-causing contaminants and reducing the corrosive effects of acids over an extended period of time. The associated measurement ASTM D2896 and ASTM D4739-06 generally range from 6-80mg KOH/g in modern lubricants, 7-10mg for general automotive use and 10-15 for Diesel operations.
Marine grade lubricants generally will run from 15-50mgKOH/g, but can be as high as 70 or 80mg KOH/g. This high level is designed to allow a longer operating period between lubricant changes under harsh operating conditions. When the TBN is measured at 2mg KOH/g or less the lubricant is considered inadequate for engine protection, and is at risk for allowing corrosion to take place.[citation needed] Fuels containing a higher amount of sulfur will decrease the TBN sooner due to the increased formation of sulfuric acid.
In other words when we buy new engine oil, it has a 'base reserve' built into the additive package, which is designed to neutralize the acids as they are produced. As with all acid base reactions, the 'base reserve' is used up in the process of neutralizing these acids.
This Base reserve is called the Total Base Number which is a measure of the level of BASE in the oil and is determined by measuring the amount of Potassium Hydroxide in mg taken to neutralize the base reserve in 1 gram of oil (mgKOH/gm).
In the average engine oil, the starting TBN is usually around 6 to 9, however if we are looking to extended drain interval oils, we need to increase the initial TBN so we don't allow the reserve to be depleted before the oil is drained. In some oils, a starting TBN 15 is not un-common and a depletion level should never get below TBN 3, which is a signal to change the oil.
TBN is also a useful tool in assessing an engines combustion efficiency, if rapid depletion is observed. If an engine's combustion is inefficient, un-burned diesel will enter the oil as blow-by, forming acids and using up TBN reserves. Exhaust emissions will often be visible as excessive smoke which in extreme cases will form 'wet' soot with large soot particles on the exhaust which will have a detrimental effect on engine wear.
Have your TBN checked periodically in your engine to monitor combustion efficiency.
Remember when practicing extended drain intervals in engines, always have your TBN checked, which with viscosity is used as a drain indicator.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan
I wanted to know more about TBN, so got this info from Wikipedia.
This is the link to where I copied this from:
Total_Base_Number Explained
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total base number (TBN) is a measure of a lubricant's reserve alkalinity. It is measured in milligrams of potassium hydroxide per gram (mg KOH/g).[citation needed]
TBN determines how effective the control of acids formed will be during the combustion process. The higher the TBN, the more effective it is in suspending wear-causing contaminants and reducing the corrosive effects of acids over an extended period of time. The associated measurement ASTM D2896 and ASTM D4739-06 generally range from 6-80mg KOH/g in modern lubricants, 7-10mg for general automotive use and 10-15 for Diesel operations.
Marine grade lubricants generally will run from 15-50mgKOH/g, but can be as high as 70 or 80mg KOH/g. This high level is designed to allow a longer operating period between lubricant changes under harsh operating conditions. When the TBN is measured at 2mg KOH/g or less the lubricant is considered inadequate for engine protection, and is at risk for allowing corrosion to take place.[citation needed] Fuels containing a higher amount of sulfur will decrease the TBN sooner due to the increased formation of sulfuric acid.
In other words when we buy new engine oil, it has a 'base reserve' built into the additive package, which is designed to neutralize the acids as they are produced. As with all acid base reactions, the 'base reserve' is used up in the process of neutralizing these acids.
This Base reserve is called the Total Base Number which is a measure of the level of BASE in the oil and is determined by measuring the amount of Potassium Hydroxide in mg taken to neutralize the base reserve in 1 gram of oil (mgKOH/gm).
In the average engine oil, the starting TBN is usually around 6 to 9, however if we are looking to extended drain interval oils, we need to increase the initial TBN so we don't allow the reserve to be depleted before the oil is drained. In some oils, a starting TBN 15 is not un-common and a depletion level should never get below TBN 3, which is a signal to change the oil.
TBN is also a useful tool in assessing an engines combustion efficiency, if rapid depletion is observed. If an engine's combustion is inefficient, un-burned diesel will enter the oil as blow-by, forming acids and using up TBN reserves. Exhaust emissions will often be visible as excessive smoke which in extreme cases will form 'wet' soot with large soot particles on the exhaust which will have a detrimental effect on engine wear.
Have your TBN checked periodically in your engine to monitor combustion efficiency.
Remember when practicing extended drain intervals in engines, always have your TBN checked, which with viscosity is used as a drain indicator.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan
Batt4Christ
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It still flips me out to check my oil life on my '13 Ram... I am a couple of weeks from my 1 year anniversary of the purchase... I have changed the oil one time, and that was because I just couldn't wait for the oil life computer to tell me to...
I asked the service dept. at the dealership where I purchased it about the oil change intervals and the warranty - I was told as long as I went by the computer, there would be no problems (other than the obvious checking of oil levels on a regular basis).
I am now at a little over 8K miles - and my oil life indicator still shows that the oil is good - and at 59% (3888 miles since last reset). I've also found conflicting info - is this oil life computer simply a mileage ticker, or does it actually vary based on usage (temp/load/etc. variable)?
And finally - I have read repeatedly to just use the regular yellow-bottle stuff for oil changes... which makes my wallet happier than the high $ synthetics I use to run in my previous truck. BUT - I have found that my gas mileage average has gone down 1-2 mpg overall in the last two months... Truck is running fine. All fluids are full and look good... no oddball driving. I know that mpg decrease was one a symptom in my last truck of being time for an oil change. With that truck and a decent synthetic, I would usually regain about 2mpg (for the first 2- 3K miles after a change, gradually loosing them back until oil changed again).
I asked the service dept. at the dealership where I purchased it about the oil change intervals and the warranty - I was told as long as I went by the computer, there would be no problems (other than the obvious checking of oil levels on a regular basis).
I am now at a little over 8K miles - and my oil life indicator still shows that the oil is good - and at 59% (3888 miles since last reset). I've also found conflicting info - is this oil life computer simply a mileage ticker, or does it actually vary based on usage (temp/load/etc. variable)?
And finally - I have read repeatedly to just use the regular yellow-bottle stuff for oil changes... which makes my wallet happier than the high $ synthetics I use to run in my previous truck. BUT - I have found that my gas mileage average has gone down 1-2 mpg overall in the last two months... Truck is running fine. All fluids are full and look good... no oddball driving. I know that mpg decrease was one a symptom in my last truck of being time for an oil change. With that truck and a decent synthetic, I would usually regain about 2mpg (for the first 2- 3K miles after a change, gradually loosing them back until oil changed again).
