Started a case with RAM today - lemon law??

[firemedic10584]

Give me a break. Don't waste my tax paying dollars emailing the NHTSA with your dissatisfaction of how your heated seat is operating. It is Not a legitimate safety issue.

.

So are you some kind of expert who says what should be considered a safety issue and what should not be?

 

[mtnrider]

So are you some kind of expert who says what should be considered a safety issue and what should not be?

Has it injured you? Has it burned you? has it started a fire?

Don't have to be an expert, just have a little common sense.

From their web site.

Examples of defects considered safety-related

• Steering components that break suddenly causing partial or complete loss of vehicle control.
• Problems with fuel system components, particularly in their susceptibility to crash damage, that result in leakage of fuel and possibly cause vehicle fires.
• Accelerator controls that may break or stick.
• Wheels that crack or break, resulting in loss of vehicle control.
• Engine cooling fan blades that break unexpectedly causing injury to persons working on a vehicle.
• Windshield wiper assemblies that fail to operate properly.
• Seats and/or seat backs that fail unexpectedly during normal use.
• Critical vehicle components that break, fall apart, or separate from the vehicle, causing potential loss of vehicle control or injury to persons inside or outside the vehicle.
• Wiring system problems that result in a fire or loss of lighting.
• Car ramps or jacks that may collapse and cause injury to someone working on a vehicle.
• Air bags that deploy under conditions for which they are not intended to deploy.
• Child safety seats that contain defective safety belts, buckles, or components that create a risk of injury, not only in a vehicle crash but also in non-operational safety of a motor vehicle.

Examples of defects NOT considered safety-related:

• Air conditioners and radios that do not operate properly.
• Ordinary wear of equipment that has to be inspected, maintained and replaced periodically. Such equipment includes shock absorbers, batteries, brake pads and shoes, and exhaust systems.
• Nonstructural or body panel rust.
• Quality of paint or cosmetic blemishes.
• Excessive oil consumption.

 

[firemedic10584]

Has it injured you? Has it burned you? has it started a fire?

Don't have to be an expert, just have a little common sense.

From their web site.

Examples of defects considered safety-related

• Steering components that break suddenly causing partial or complete loss of vehicle control.
• Problems with fuel system components, particularly in their susceptibility to crash damage, that result in leakage of fuel and possibly cause vehicle fires.
• Accelerator controls that may break or stick.
• Wheels that crack or break, resulting in loss of vehicle control.
• Engine cooling fan blades that break unexpectedly causing injury to persons working on a vehicle.
• Windshield wiper assemblies that fail to operate properly.
• Seats and/or seat backs that fail unexpectedly during normal use.
• Critical vehicle components that break, fall apart, or separate from the vehicle, causing potential loss of vehicle control or injury to persons inside or outside the vehicle.
• Wiring system problems that result in a fire or loss of lighting.
• Car ramps or jacks that may collapse and cause injury to someone working on a vehicle.
• Air bags that deploy under conditions for which they are not intended to deploy.
• Child safety seats that contain defective safety belts, buckles, or components that create a risk of injury, not only in a vehicle crash but also in non-operational safety of a motor vehicle.

Examples of defects NOT considered safety-related:

• Air conditioners and radios that do not operate properly.
• Ordinary wear of equipment that has to be inspected, maintained and replaced periodically. Such equipment includes shock absorbers, batteries, brake pads and shoes, and exhaust systems.
• Nonstructural or body panel rust.
• Quality of paint or cosmetic blemishes.
• Excessive oil consumption.

Not yet it hasn't. Doesn't mean it will and doesn't mean it won't. Until they give me a solid reason as to why it's shutting down, then I'm going to continue assuming it is a safety concern as well as devalues the truck since they don't work properly. We can agree to disagree.

 

[chrisbh17]

If they can't explain why its happening differently than what is expected (both written in owners manual and service manual), how they can 100% say it IS NOT a safety issue?

Its pretty simple....they can change all of the literature to say it is supposed to work like @firemedic10584's seats are, or they can do the troubleshooting to find out why his are working differently.

But, they cant have both, and Im pretty sure there is no way they will modify anything on paper saying "in some trucks they might turn off after 3 minutes, this is normal. In other trucks they will run indefinitely until the truck or heated seats are turned off, this is also normal"

 

[firemedic10584]

If they can't explain why its happening differently than what is expected (both written in owners manual and service manual), how they can 100% say it IS NOT a safety issue?

Its pretty simple....they can change all of the literature to say it is supposed to work like @firemedic10584's seats are, or they can do the troubleshooting to find out why his are working differently.

But, they cant have both, and Im pretty sure there is no way they will modify anything on paper saying "in some trucks they might turn off after 3 minutes, this is normal. In other trucks they will run indefinitely until the truck or heated seats are turned off, this is also normal"

Agreed! It would be a good laugh though if they did put that in the owners manual! "well, on Tuesdays they will run as intended. On all other days, it depends on how how tall the grass is if they will work or not." lol

 

[MikeG71]

Has it injured you? Has it burned you? has it started a fire?

Don't have to be an expert, just have a little common sense.

From their web site.

Examples of defects considered safety-related

• Wiring system problems that result in a fire or loss of lighting.

Examples of defects NOT considered safety-related:

• Air conditioners and radios that do not operate properly.
• Ordinary wear of equipment that has to be inspected, maintained and replaced periodically. Such equipment includes shock absorbers, batteries, brake pads and shoes, and exhaust systems.
• Nonstructural or body panel rust.
• Quality of paint or cosmetic blemishes.
• Excessive oil consumption.

"Wiring system problems that result in a fire or loss of lighting." so if the potential for an electrical fire is there than the question should be asked and the NHTSA can decide. A phone call won't affect anyone's tax dollars. In their example of "NOT" considered, it doesn't mention interior wiring systems. I'm sure if the rolls were reversed, you'd be looking at all options to get it resolved.

 

[werdna1977]

"Wiring system problems that result in a fire or loss of lighting." so if the potential for an electrical fire is there than the question should be asked and the NHTSA can decide. A phone call won't affect anyone's tax dollars. In their example of "NOT" considered, it doesn't mention interior wiring systems. I'm sure if the rolls were reversed, you'd be looking at all options to get it resolved.

I agree with this post because at this point we do not know for sure if it will cause a fire or not therefor should proceed on the side of caution

 

[firemedic10584]

I agree with this post because at this point we do not know for sure if it will cause a fire or not therefor should proceed on the side of caution

Exactly. The tech told me (one of the reasons) it's shutting down is because the safety mechanism is shutting it down so it doesn't burn the wiring. So if the safety mechanism fails, the wires will begin to burn. Now is that actually true? I dont know nor do I think the techs really know. But I can't count it out as it could never happen.

 

[ISellRams22]

I think the point you made is fair and in this thread and others like it, some of us have had the time to elevate an issue. FCA has responded in a number of cases with positive results. BUT,,,many people do not have the time, the insight or energy to go thru the process of resolution. They become frustrated with dealer BS and get turned off to the brand. I do believe that FCA-Ram wants to produce a quality product that meets customers reasonable expectations. The break down is in the execution of process and procedure. Poor communications between dealers, assembly and FCA. I understand that this is a company going thru change. Like you I am a brand loyalist. But the failure of this company to address quality and execute positive change is simply not happening. It would be shame if they run out of time.

youre statement is a thought out one and i get what youre saying but every single brand has the exact same issues. i unfortunately had to work for gmc and honda for a short time and they had the exact issues in their "professional grade" trucks. if you odnt have time to escalate issues and deal with them then dont own cars own a bike. im just saying. back in the day people had to write letter and wait months for things to arrive. its called a process. not everything is at our fingers as nice as that would be. believe me im 26 years old i was raised in an era where everything is now now now but thats not reality for everything. my step dads escalade had a issues with his steering column that took 4 months of badgering cadillac to fix. EVERY brand has it. thats a fact

 

[chrisbh17]

I think a lot of the "why does it take so long" sentiment comes from the fact that a lot of the back and forth seems to be just a complete waste of time. Some (most? all?) dealers seem like they would rather spend time proving something "normal" by finding another truck that does it, etc than just actually troubleshooting the issue. Then if they cant do that, they'll go into "by design" mode.

We've now proven that a tech could have done more than just say "its shutting off early for some reason". They can actually connect to the darn seat module and know EXACTLY WHY it's shutting down early. And once they know that, they might actually be able to fix it. And even if they couldn't fix it at that point, at least the explanation could be more of an explanation than just a generic "yeah its shutting down early but thats what its supposed to do if it senses something wrong".

But alas, its easier for them to say "sorry its normal". I understand warranty labor rate is less than out of warranty labor rate, but again that goes right back to "it takes too long because ", and in this case they would be putting profit before the customer.

Think of it this way...if this truck was not under warranty and taken in because of the seat heaters shutting down early, would the problem have been fixed? I honestly think it would....at the cost of a whole lot of labor, but yes I think it would have eventually been fixed. Because they would be getting paid 100% labor rate instead of some lower amount, they could throw a couple hours of troubleshooting at it, potentially find the exact issue and then throw more labor at it to fix it.

Ive owned: Chevy, Dodge, Honda, Acura, Infiniti, Nissan and Lexus. The Honda, Acura, Infiniti and Nissan's have all had "issues" (not major) under warranty. At no point did one of those dealers try to excuse it away. I walked in, explained the issue, showed it to them and they fixed it.

My Chevy, Dodge and now RAM? Same runaround - first it was normal, then it was "oh its this", which didnt fix it. Then it was "oh sorry its this", which also didnt fix it. Then it was "sorry we cant fix it so it must be normal".

 

[ISellRams22]

I think a lot of the "why does it take so long" sentiment comes from the fact that a lot of the back and forth seems to be just a complete waste of time. Some (most? all?) dealers seem like they would rather spend time proving something "normal" by finding another truck that does it, etc than just actually troubleshooting the issue. Then if they cant do that, they'll go into "by design" mode.

We've now proven that a tech could have done more than just say "its shutting off early for some reason". They can actually connect to the darn seat module and know EXACTLY WHY it's shutting down early. And once they know that, they might actually be able to fix it. And even if they couldn't fix it at that point, at least the explanation could be more of an explanation than just a generic "yeah its shutting down early but thats what its supposed to do if it senses something wrong".

But alas, its easier for them to say "sorry its normal". I understand warranty labor rate is less than out of warranty labor rate, but again that goes right back to "it takes too long because ", and in this case they would be putting profit before the customer.

Think of it this way...if this truck was not under warranty and taken in because of the seat heaters shutting down early, would the problem have been fixed? I honestly think it would....at the cost of a whole lot of labor, but yes I think it would have eventually been fixed. Because they would be getting paid 100% labor rate instead of some lower amount, they could throw a couple hours of troubleshooting at it, potentially find the exact issue and then throw more labor at it to fix it.

Ive owned: Chevy, Dodge, Honda, Acura, Infiniti, Nissan and Lexus. The Honda, Acura, Infiniti and Nissan's have all had "issues" (not major) under warranty. At no point did one of those dealers try to excuse it away. I walked in, explained the issue, showed it to them and they fixed it.

My Chevy, Dodge and now RAM? Same runaround - first it was normal, then it was "oh its this", which didnt fix it. Then it was "oh sorry its this", which also didnt fix it. Then it was "sorry we cant fix it so it must be normal".

my girlfriends 2018 nissan radio goes black twice a day. shes gone to three dealerships and they said its normal its updating. i finally went with her and got in their face and they said sorry ill look at it now weve been fighting nissan to get it replaced for weeks. its the same everywhere. everyone wants to feel like their issue or ram or whatever their unhappy with is the worst and its not. nobody is special. nobody is better at it. they all have issues. every single manufacturer has the same problems. just because you happen to have had issues with chevy and ram doesnt mean they suck.

 

[MikeG71]

Think of it this way...if this truck was not under warranty and taken in because of the seat heaters shutting down early, would the problem have been fixed? I honestly think it would....at the cost of a whole lot of labor, but yes I think it would have eventually been fixed. Because they would be getting paid 100% labor rate instead of some lower amount, they could throw a couple hours of troubleshooting at it, potentially find the exact issue and then throw more labor at it to fix it.

".

Hit the nail on the head!

 

[firemedic10584]

my girlfriends 2018 nissan radio goes black twice a day. shes gone to three dealerships and they said its normal its updating. i finally went with her and got in their face and they said sorry ill look at it now weve been fighting nissan to get it replaced for weeks. its the same everywhere. everyone wants to feel like their issue or ram or whatever their unhappy with is the worst and its not. nobody is special. nobody is better at it. they all have issues. every single manufacturer has the same problems. just because you happen to have had issues with chevy and ram doesnt mean they suck.

I don't think anyone said they suck? I've been very loyal to Ram / Dodge over the years. I don't know what I'll get if I do end up winning this just because my needs are different now. But I will say this whole thing has put a bad taste in my mouth. But I realize there are issues with every brand out there.

 

[ISellRams22]

I don't think anyone said they suck? I've been very loyal to Ram / Dodge over the years. I don't know what I'll get if I do end up winning this just because my needs are different now. But I will say this whole thing has put a bad taste in my mouth. But I realize there are issues with every brand out there.

just talking in general boss!

 

[huntergreen]

Has it injured you? Has it burned you? has it started a fire?

Don't have to be an expert, just have a little common sense.

From their web site.

Examples of defects considered safety-related

• Steering components that break suddenly causing partial or complete loss of vehicle control.
• Problems with fuel system components, particularly in their susceptibility to crash damage, that result in leakage of fuel and possibly cause vehicle fires.
• Accelerator controls that may break or stick.
• Wheels that crack or break, resulting in loss of vehicle control.
• Engine cooling fan blades that break unexpectedly causing injury to persons working on a vehicle.
• Windshield wiper assemblies that fail to operate properly.
• Seats and/or seat backs that fail unexpectedly during normal use.
• Critical vehicle components that break, fall apart, or separate from the vehicle, causing potential loss of vehicle control or injury to persons inside or outside the vehicle.
• Wiring system problems that result in a fire or loss of lighting.
• Car ramps or jacks that may collapse and cause injury to someone working on a vehicle.
• Air bags that deploy under conditions for which they are not intended to deploy.
• Child safety seats that contain defective safety belts, buckles, or components that create a risk of injury, not only in a vehicle crash but also in non-operational safety of a motor vehicle.

Examples of defects NOT considered safety-related:

• Air conditioners and radios that do not operate properly.
• Ordinary wear of equipment that has to be inspected, maintained and replaced periodically. Such equipment includes shock absorbers, batteries, brake pads and shoes, and exhaust systems.
• Nonstructural or body panel rust.
• Quality of paint or cosmetic blemishes.
• Excessive oil consumption.

Here is one for your list. In 2005, my 04 grand Cherokee limited was recalled for the heated seats. Reason : .Can overheat and cause fire and burns.
The point, defective heated seats can be a safety issue.

 

[mtnrider]

Here is one for your list. In 2005, my 04 grand Cherokee limited was recalled for the heated seats. Reason : .Can overheat and cause fire and burns.
The point, defective heated seats can be a safety issue.

Has his seat overheated? The OP is quite adamant that his don't get hot enough. So IN THIS CASE. there is NO safety issue.

 

[Hootbro]

When in doubt, report it and let them figure it out rather than sword fight on the internet with strangers.

 

[huntergreen]

Has his seat overheated? The OP is quite adamant that his don't get hot enough. So IN THIS CASE. there is NO safety issue.

.

If I am understanding this is due, it is overheating and then is being shut down due to the high temp. What happens if the cut off stops working ?

 

[wutech]

Wow so I’ll say it again, please report to NHTSA all and everyone that has had an issue of their heated seats not operating as described in the owners manual without an explanation for a fix. This is the very definition of why they are there.

If you don’t think so jump over to the Jeep Cherokee forums and read about the guys that have had issues with the ZF9 transmissions (had one, had it get replaced, no longer have cause don’t trust without warranty). Or the fact that the 2019s have a recall about bad chrome on the brake calipers and bleeding the brakes is the recall fix.

 

[mtnrider]

Wow so I’ll say it again, please report to NHTSA all and everyone that has had an issue of their heated seats not operating as described in the owners manual without an explanation for a fix. This is the very definition of why they are there.
.

Wow is right, No need to say it again, it's very clear you do not understand what a SAFETY issue is or what the NHTSA does . NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRANSPORTATION SAFETY ADMINISTRATION .

Complaining to them that my seat is not keeping my girlfriends bum warm enough is hardly a concern to them or a SAFETY issue.


.