Zf transmission fluid and maintenance information

[Kosmo272]

I’m doing a trans service on my 2019 classic and came across this video and it covers in depth everything about types of fluids, the fluid specs, parts and a whole bunch of things I thought I would share with everybody. From working in a dealership environment (John Deere) I know the brand does not produce there own oil 99% of the time and most of the time but has a contract with one of the major oil producers like shell or esso to produce oil for them with zf’s specifications. And the brands will change suppliers overtime depending on cost and I’m sure zf is no acception(I think shell produces oil for zf but cannot verify 100%)

 

[Kosmo272]

And I know the title is for a jeep and not a ram but both of the transmissions function the excact same and use the same type of fluid

 

[Wild one]

Pay attention to the first highlighted paragraph,it's important to level the pan rail in the trucks,which means you have to jack the rear tires up in the air a fair bit,you also need the tires off the ground for it to shift into 2nd gear .
These are the instructions that come with a "brand new" 8 speed transmission when bought from the dealer

 

[18GSMRam]

Pay attention to the first highlighted paragraph,it's important to level the pan rail in the trucks,which means you have to jack the rear tires up in the air a fair bit,you also need the tires off the ground for it to shift into 2nd gear .
These are the instructions that come with a "brand new" 8 speed transmission when bought from the dealer

View attachment 241677

What's the revision date on that? And who wrote it?

The procedure I have is from ZF and is a flow chart dated 10 2020 and it is a bit different. It doesn't mention anything about the traction control needing to be disabled but does mention the A/C, lights and electronics need to be off, wants to hold gears for 10 seconds and engine speed for 30 seconds.

 

[chrisbh17]

What's the revision date on that? And who wrote it?

The procedure I have is from ZF and is a flow chart dated 10 2020 and it is a bit different. It doesn't mention anything about the traction control needing to be disabled but does mention the A/C, lights and electronics need to be off, wants to hold gears for 10 seconds and engine speed for 30 seconds.

Are you sure its for the trucks?

Im guessing it wants traction control disabled because once the rear wheels spin free, it will try to lock them up or even worse engage the front wheels if 4-Auto is on. Leading to all sorts of potential Darwin awards.

 

[18GSMRam]

Are you sure its for the trucks?

Im guessing it wants traction control disabled because once the rear wheels spin free, it will try to lock them up or even worse engage the front wheels if 4-Auto is on. Leading to all sorts of potential Darwin awards.

No Im not sure, but the traction control thing can be for any vehicle that has it, why would that specifically be for the trucks? Assuming its in 2wd only anyway.

Guess Ill do the level check with the procedure Rick put up and see if I'm too low or too full.

 

[Wild one]

What's the revision date on that? And who wrote it?

The procedure I have is from ZF and is a flow chart dated 10 2020 and it is a bit different. It doesn't mention anything about the traction control needing to be disabled but does mention the A/C, lights and electronics need to be off, wants to hold gears for 10 seconds and engine speed for 30 seconds.

Those are the specific instructions that come with a brand new transmission when you order it from the dealer.The dealer used my VIN to order the specific 8 speed for my truck,the tranny was shipped right from ZF in Germany in a sealed container,and those were the truck specific instructions attached to the transmission inside the container,so i'm guessing they are correct for a truck.That was the summer of 18. The trucks have the transmission angled downhill towards the rear of the truck,while the cars basically have the transmission sitting level in the chassis,that's why the instructions for the trucks are very specific about leveling the pan rail.Once you look at where the tranny pans sump sits and where the fill/level check plug is located on the transmission,it makes sense why you have to lift the rear tires in the air a fair bit,plus you need the rear tires off the ground for the transmission to actually shift into 2nd gear.From what i've gathered up the reason you go through the gears and let it shift into 2nd is to fill the clutch circuits with fluid.

 

[18GSMRam]

No arguments on the reasoning for leveling; just that some of the info is different between your 2018 directions and the one I got from ZF dated October 2020.

https://aftermarket.zf.com/remoteme...38411/si-zf-si-oelwechselkit-8hp-50130-en.pdf

I get the Ram isn't listed there (nor is any Chrysler with the 8hp70) but outside of the TC, its most likely identical transmission when it comes to internals, why are there subtle differences in the procedure? These seemingly minor details are what drives me nuts.... I cant find a specific one (other than yours now) from ZF for the Ram.

 

[Wild one]

No arguments on the reasoning for leveling; just that some of the info is different between your 2018 directions and the one I got from ZF dated October 2020.

https://aftermarket.zf.com/remoteme...38411/si-zf-si-oelwechselkit-8hp-50130-en.pdf

I get the Ram isn't listed there (nor is any Chrysler with the 8hp70) but outside of the TC, its most likely identical transmission when it comes to internals, why are there subtle differences in the procedure? These seemingly minor details are what drives me nuts.... I cant find a specific one (other than yours now) from ZF for the Ram.

You must be reading them differant then me,lol.As far as i read ,those instructions are a virtual carbon copy of the instructions i have.You go through the gears the same,let it shift into 2nd the same,check it at the same temperatures,so i'm failing to see why you're having a hard time ,the only thing they don't mention is leveling the pan rail,but that is pretty well Ram specific,as the majority of cars have the transmission sitting level with the ground.I'm assuming you still have to lift the tires up by those instructions,as it states manually shift D1 and D2, the only way i know how to get the tranny to actually shift into 2nd gear is to have the tires off the ground and rotating.Like i said you must be reading them differant then me,lol

 

[18GSMRam]

You must be reading them differant then me,lol.As far as i read ,those instructions are a virtual carbon copy of the instructions i have.You go through the gears the same,let it shift into 2nd the same,check it at the same temperatures,so i'm failing to see why you're having a hard time ,the only thing they don't mention is leveling the pan rail,but that is pretty well Ram specific,as the majority of cars have the transmission sitting level with the ground.I'm assuming you still have to lift the tires up by those instructions,as it states manually shift D1 and D2, the only way i know how to get the tranny to actually shift into 2nd gear is to have the tires off the ground and rotating.Like i said you must be reading them differant then me,lol

Ha well maybe I pay attention to the details more

See post at 5:34pm EST today

 

[Wild one]

Ha well maybe I pay attention to the details more

See post at 5:34pm EST today

What do you think "electronic consumers" are if not Traction control??. I'm pretty sure traction control is an electronic consumer when it's engaged,and they clearly tell you to turn off electronic consumers,which is basically the same as saying disable traction control. You have to realize English isn't the native tongue in Germany,and you have to read things in prespective to the 2 differant languages and what might be lost in translation. Like i said those instructions are a virtual copy of the ones i've posted.You're reading way more into these so called differances you're seeing,while i'm not seeing any differances at all,to me they're identical instructions including the fact the rear tires need to be off the ground to shift into D2,only thing missing is they don't mention leveling the pan rail,but we've already determined that to be Ram specific,while these are more a generic set of instructions for cars,which already have the transmission sitting virtually level with the ground .

 

[18GSMRam]

What do you think "electronic consumers" are if not Traction control??. I'm pretty sure traction control is an electronic consumer when it's engaged,and they clearly tell you to turn off electronic consumers,which is basically the same as saying disable traction control. You have to realize English isn't the native tongue in Germany,and you have to read things in prespective to the 2 differant languages and what might be lost in translation. Like i said those instructions are a virtual copy of the ones i've posted.You're reading way more into these so called differances you're seeing,while i'm not seeing any differances at all,to me they're identical instructions including the fact the rear tires need to be off the ground to shift into D2,only thing missing is they don't mention leveling the pan rail,but we've already determined that to be Ram specific,while these are more a generic set of instructions for cars,which already have the transmission sitting virtually level with the ground .

So I should turn off my front and rear parking sensors as well? What about disable my brake lights...see where I'm going with this?

Trust me English may not be their native tongue but they are fluent in speaking, reading and writing it.

The company I work for is based in Sweden, years ago I worked for a german company with a facility there in Germany....their english is perfect. It has to be, one of their, if not their biggest markets is North America, they need to be able to communicate on any level, it's an absolutele requirement from a company that is based in the USA, all documents must be in English and be readable by someone with a very low level of education.

In my many years of experience I have also had the pleasure (sarcasm) of having to write service bulletins or technical manuals for tear down and installation/rework of things. Engineers (I'm one), who ultimately have final say on what goes in there typically are ocd to the minor detail (myself included) that's why it's easy for me to see small differences that others label as the same or close enough.... But technically they are not the same, that's all I'm saying. It's not the same to me, there are differences and when there are differences I begin to question the legitimacy.

Maybe not question the legitimacy but more maybe they figured out over the last two years that some things don't have to be done like turning off traction control (not that that is difficult) or the that instead of 5 seconds it's needs to be 10 or 15.... So why would they be so specific in the sheet you received with your new tranny and then be so general in the one published on line .... It's not cause the person who wrote the one on line isn't good at writing English, maybe cause they realized it didn't matter.... But somehow the AC running matters now where it didn't before.

 

[Wild one]

FYI it's easier to find the post you're referring to,if you use the post number.

 

[18GSMRam]

I can't see the damn numbers on my phone, I almost went to my computer to get the actual post number but I was too lazy

 

[Wild one]

So I should turn off my front and rear parking sensors as well? What about disable my brake lights...see where I'm going with this?

Trust me English may not be their native tongue but they are fluent in speaking, reading and writing it.

The company I work for is based in Sweden, years ago I worked for a german company with a facility there in Germany....their english is perfect. It has to be, one of their, if not their biggest markets is North America, they need to be able to communicate on any level, it's an absolutele requirement from a company that is based in the USA, all documents must be in English and be readable by someone with a very low level of education.

In my many years of experience I have also had the pleasure (sarcasm) of having to write service bulletins or technical manuals for tear down and installation/rework of things. Engineers (I'm one), who ultimately have final say on what goes in there typically are ocd to the minor detail (myself included) that's why it's easy for me to see small differences that others label as the same or close enough.... But technically they are not the same, that's all I'm saying. It's not the same to me, there are differences and when there are differences I begin to question the legitimacy.

Maybe not question the legitimacy but more maybe they figured out over the last two years that some things don't have to be done like turning off traction control (not that that is difficult) or the that instead of 5 seconds it's needs to be 10 or 15.... So why would they be so specific in the sheet you received with your new tranny and then be so general in the one published on line .... It's not cause the person who wrote the one on line isn't good at writing English, maybe cause they realized it didn't matter.... But somehow the AC running matters now where it didn't before.

Tell you what do it at 10secs and 30secs but re-install the thermostat, see how far you get,lol. You aren't realizing the 1500's are the only ones who use coolant to heat the fluid,and if you follow their 10 sec and 30 sec rule,you'll be well past the 130F checking temperature. I'm not seeing the differances you seem to be reading into the same procedure,but that might be because i have several 8 speed services under my belt and realize you can't run a 10 and 30 sec interval with-out exceding the 130F checking temp, while you're on your first service.Try running through the procedure at their 10sec and 30 sec interval and see where you end up at as far as final checking temp goes. But you'll also have to re-install the transmission thermostat,as this test is irrevelant with-out the tranny thermostat back in the mix, so you're dealing with a stock 8 speed on a 1500,that uses coolant to heat the tranny fluid.With-out the thermostat you can do their 10 and 30 sec procedure,with the thermostat you can't as it'll put you past the optimal checking temp of 130F. Remember our 1500's are the only ones using a coolant heat exchanger to heat the fluid,the cars and heavy duty trucks don't heat the fluid,so they can get away with a longer clutch fill scenerio then our trucks can,and still be under the max 130F checking temp.

 

[18GSMRam]

Tell you what do it at 10secs and 30secs but re-install the thermostat, see how far you get,lol. You aren't realizing the 1500's are the only ones who use coolant to heat the fluid,and if you follow their 10 sec and 30 sec rule,you'll be well past the 130F checking temperature. I'm not seeing the differances you seem to be reading into the same procedure,but that might be because i have several 8 speed services under my belt and realize you can't run a 10 and 30 sec interval with-out exceding the 130F checking temp, while you're on your first service.Try running through the procedure at their 10sec and 30 sec interval and see where you end up at as far as final checking temp goes. But you'll also have to re-install the transmission thermostat,as this test is irrevelant with-out the tranny thermostat back in the mix, so you're dealing with a stock 8 speed on a 1500,that uses coolant to heat the tranny fluid.With-out the thermostat you can do their 10 and 30 sec procedure,with the thermostat you can't as it'll put you past the optimal checking temp of 130F. Remember our 1500's are the only ones using a coolant heat exchanger to heat the fluid,the cars and heavy duty trucks don't heat the fluid,so they can get away with a longer clutch fill scenerio then our trucks can,and still be under the max 130F checking temp.

Ram is not the only chrysler products that heats the transmission with a bypass, why would RevMax make a different bypass kit for a few of the other chryslers then? Now Ram maybe the only one that uses coolant to heat it but it is not the only one to use a bypass to force the fluid temp up (well above the 122F point) before cooling.

See this:
Make sure to listen to the first few minutes and understand that this applies for any 8hp transmission (not just the 70) from ZF and then forward to 11:57 onward. Chrysler not mentioning anything about how to check fluid levels with bypasses installed but the ZF engineer said it must be considered. And becomes even more imperative when a new transmission is installed or is rebuilt, which you said yours was new and made no mention of it on the fill and check procedure. Me thinks chysler has input into what is delivered (instructions) so that the bypass is ignored and ZF prolly tells them ok but you own warranty claims not us.

Not having the bypass valve makes the test much easier but that doesn't mean that it can't be done with it and according to ZF is required.

This is the same as chrysler saying it's lifetime fluid and ZF basically saying otherwise....who are you going to trust more?

I'd guess this is why chrysler calls it lifetime, they kinda screwed the pooch with actually heating the fluid (with or without coolant) before cooling it making it infinitely harder to check properly.

 

[Wild one]

Ram is not the only chrysler products that heats the transmission with a bypass, why would RevMax make a different bypass kit for a few of the other chryslers then? Now Ram maybe the only one that uses coolant to heat it but it is not the only one to use a bypass to force the fluid temp up before cooling.

See this:
Make sure you listen to the first few minutes and understand that this applies for any 8hp transmission (not just the 70) from ZF and then forward to 11:57 onward. Chrysler not mentioning anything about how to check fluid levels with bypasses installed but the ZF engineer said it must be considered.

I've seen that video several times,that's not Chrsyler that's Webber a techinical school,has nothing to do with Chrsyler. Point me to where i said the cars didn't have a thermostat,both the cars and heavy duty trucks have their own style thermostat,but they "do not" have the coolant heater that the 1500's have.You can run the cars and HD's a lot longer before they heat up. This was my wifes 6.4 Challengers temp after 40 miles of driving the other day,not a chance in hell will a 1500's 8 speed be only 111F after 40 miles of driving. I've done the fluid level check then drove it till the tranny was above 185 (thermostat is open by then) and rechecked the level,the level has never really changed.This video forgets the thermostat also doesn't let fluid back out of the cooler and lines when it's closed,even an engineer should be able to figure that out,lol.The only reason you want to get the tranny hot and have the thermostat open is if you're trying to get all the fluid out to do a complete fluid change,which takes a couple pan drains. BTW that video is way older then my instructions as you seem to be hung up on the year of the revisions.



Here's a pic of the Revmax/Hellraiser thermostat bypass for the cars and HD trucks.FYI the 1500's thermostat doesn't open till roughly 180F,a couple of us have tested it. And with that i'm done,you're starting to be to much engineer and not enough common sense,lol

ZF8HPXX Thermostatic BY-PASS Valve — Hell Raiser Transmission LLC

 

[18GSMRam]

The point is there is tons of different information from year to year and it can be considered inconsistent at best. If it has changed that much over time it doesn't give you pause to say wtf is chrysler doing.

I'd trust that video with someone who 1. teaches automotive tech, 2. went to a conference on AT's and listened to a ZF engineer directly than something that chrysler says.

Why else would you want to change your transmission fluid more often than chrysler says or adjust the operating temp of the fluid. Common sense and the fact ZF seems to not condone heating the fluid. Hell there are several posts that show ZF doesn't make any comment on what chrysler is doing with the heating of the fluid, "saying refer to your manufacturers specifications" as a reply when contacted.

ZF IMO contradicts chrysler in many ways regarding the 8HP and regardless of what directions come in the container directly from ZF, doesn't mean chrysler didn't have input. Otherwise they would have specifically stated on new transmission rebuilds or installs to make sure you drain transmission cooler and perform these additional procedures when filling for the first time. ( Which unsurprisingly was missing from the instructions delivered with your new tranny), why wouldn't chrysler want that done?! It's in the best interest of the new transmission. The directions should specifically state that what model it is for if it is model specific and it doesn't, why not?

It's no secret that many manufacturers don't have certain steps in servicing. I had an issue with an M3 once where I had to have the VANOS replaced and of course re timed. The shop that did the work followed the service instructions to a T but timing was off. He contacted a tech he knew at the local dealer. Surprise, the tech said oh there is a step you need to do not listed in the repair. Plenty of other stories in past lifetimes as well, just one example.

Those are they types of experiences I have had in my life that drives me to question things, common sense, not the engineer in me.

The fact is there are enough holes in what chrysler does and what other manufacturers do with the same transmission that you should question chrysler at every pass, at least for the transmissions. If you can't see that that is where I'm coming from then I can't give more examples to explain it better. I don't trust anything that comes from chrysler. That sheet you have is probably correct for a ZF tranny in any other car but chrysler and maybe a few others but it's not correct for anyone who has a bypass especially for if it's a new install.

What was the point of all this again?

 

[Wild one]

The point is there is tons of different information from year to year and it can be considered inconsistent at best. If it has changed that much over time it doesn't give you pause to say wtf is chrysler doing.

I'd trust that video with someone who 1. teaches automotive tech, 2. went to a conference on AT's and listened to a ZF engineer directly than something that chrysler says.

Why else would you want to change your transmission fluid more often than chrysler says or adjust the operating temp of the fluid. Common sense and the fact ZF seems to not condone heating the fluid. Hell there are several posts that show ZF doesn't make any comment on what chrysler is doing with the heating of the fluid, "saying refer to your manufacturers specifications" as a reply when contacted.

ZF IMO contradicts chrysler in many ways regarding the 8HP and regardless of what directions come in the container directly from ZF, doesn't mean chrysler didn't have input. Otherwise they would have specifically stated on new transmission rebuilds or installs to make sure you drain transmission cooler and perform these additional procedures when filling for the first time. ( Which unsurprisingly was missing from the instructions delivered with your new tranny), why wouldn't chrysler want that done?! It's in the best interest of the new transmission. The directions should specifically state that what model it is for if it is model specific and it doesn't, why not?

It's no secret that many manufacturers don't have certain steps in servicing. I had an issue with an M3 once where I had to have the VANOS replaced and of course re timed. The shop that did the work followed the service instructions to a T but timing was off. He contacted a tech he knew at the local dealer. Surprise, the tech said oh there is a step you need to do not listed in the repair. Plenty of other stories in past lifetimes as well, just one example.

Those are they types of experiences I have had in my life that drives me to question things, common sense, not the engineer in me.

The fact is there are enough holes in what chrysler does and what other manufacturers do with the same transmission that you should question chrysler at every pass, at least for the transmissions. If you can't see that that is where I'm coming from then I can't give more examples to explain it better. I don't trust anything that comes from chrysler. That sheet you have is probably correct for a ZF tranny in any other car but chrysler and maybe a few others but it's not correct for anyone who has a bypass especially for if it's a new install.

What was the point of all this again?

I didn't bother to take pics of the whole instruction manual that came with the transmission,but yes it did state to flush the cooler and lines,and was very specific about not using a solvent based flush meadian,they also did have my trucks VIN number on the one sheet,you're assuming (and you know what that means) that i took pics of the whole damn manual that came with the transmission,all i took a picture of was the level checking procedure,so i could post it for other guys,i'm not going to take pictures of things that have my address and trucks vin number on,maybe you do,but i don't,i even edited the green sheet so all it shows are the actual instructions.Go buy a new transmission and get everything you seem to think is missing,lol. BTW i didn't buy a rebuilt transmission i bought a "brand new " transmission "vin" specific to my truck. Just for the record i have a very good friend who's a Chryco tech and has been through Chryslers ZF training/ rebuilding program,i trust his knowledge more then i trust Webber Academies knowledge,lol. You're starting to sound like a typical engineer,to smart to walk and talk and chew gum at the same time,and definitely lacking in common sense.You know what, go do it which ever way you want,i could care less.I'm pretty well done with you,as you appear to be way to smart to listen to common sense,and want to argue over the dumbest of things .You sir have a good day,i'm out.

 

[18GSMRam]

I didn't bother to take pics of the whole instruction manual that came with the transmission,but yes it did state to flush the cooler and lines,and was very specific about not using a solvent based flush meadian,they also did have my trucks VIN number on the one sheet,you're assuming (and you know what that means) that i took pics of the whole damn manual that came with the transmission,all i took a picture of was the level checking procedure,so i could post it for other guys,i'm not going to take pictures of things that have my address and trucks vin number on,maybe you do,but i don't,i even edited the green sheet so all it shows are the actual instructions.Go buy a new transmission and get everything you seem to think is missing,lol. BTW i didn't buy a rebuilt transmission i bought a "brand new " transmission "vin" specific to my truck. Just for the record i have a very good friend who's a Chryco tech and has been through Chryslers ZF training/ rebuilding program,i trust his knowledge more then i trust Webber Academies knowledge,lol. You're starting to sound like a typical engineer,to smart to walk and talk and chew gum at the same time,and definitely lacking in common sense.You know what, go do it which ever way you want,i could care less.I'm pretty well done with you,as you appear to be way to smart to listen to common sense,and want to argue over the dumbest of things .You sir have a good day,i'm out.

Wow you got your britches into a bunch quickly, you talk like you know me, I simply pointed out some inconsistencies/missing information and you say I am a typical engineer? You don't even know what kind of engineer I am, LOL. Sorry I have an OCD tendency for attention to detail, its what makes me (as well as others) the damn good engineer I (we) am (are). You are right I don't have all the info on that sheet (according to you) and that's why I questioned it, if I did maybe I wouldn't have questioned it, my motto is trust but verify.

I never asked for the entire manual to be posted or any VIN/personal information, you are the one bringing that up. All you had to do was say hey, that information (model/vehicle specific instructions) was there I just didn't allow it to be seen cause it has personal information around it (would it really have taken that long to block it out so the entire page could be seen?). No one needs the whole manual but you should provide enough information (documents or images with lacking pertinent information, other than personal stuff removed are not sufficient) to validate your position. I'm not going to stoop to your level and "belittle" you because you view something differently than I do (maybe we wouldn't even be here if you shared just a little more of the info than what you did), if you have an argument back it up with proof, so now that you mention it lets see the information where it say the procedure is specific to Ram 1500's? You don't get to just say it and everyone is supposed to believe it as gospel.

If you trust your tech, who works for Chrysler and is trained by Chrysler, so much then why don't you trust Chrysler? You know the company that has spent hours and hours and hours testing both the durability and longevity of the design? This is where I can easily make the typical comment that most engineers would insert here but I wont, its not worth it. You (as did I) installed a valve to change the operating conditions of the transmission. So you (and I) know more than Chrysler? I can agree with an engineering background and mindset that some things don't pass the sniff test when using common sense when it comes to this transmission and how Chrysler worked with it (mostly due to ZF saying so without using words, if I hadn't come across that then this would be a different conversation), otherwise I wouldn't have made similar mods as you. If you haven't already, are you going to change out the transmission fluid at some point? Why? Its lifetime according to Chrysler? Why do anything that doesn't follow the recommended guidelines from Chrysler? Now all of a sudden you want to follow them implicitly because Chrysler said so? Hypocrisy knows no bounds... Yes I would wage a months paycheck that those instructions are written with Chryslers input, it has to be otherwise ZF would have no idea about leveling the Rams.

It seems you pick and choose who to trust based on what you think is correct and then when someone potentially doesn't view that the same way (or wants more information) they are a typical "this or that" and name calling begins and you can no longer be bothered. Its called confirmation bias. Unfortunately you and I agree on more than you think its just I wanted more information to confirm some of the things that are being posted and some reason that is met with me being the typical engineer., well yes it is, we want as much information as possible to make an informed decision and hearsay or documents without data (including missing vehicle/model information) doesn't count.... You do you man but word of advice, check that ego at the door man, I'm sure you are real pleasure to discuss topics with when someone doesn't agree with you 100% or wants more information that you have deemed closed for discussion because you think you provided enough information.

BTW its I "COULDNT" care less.... if you "could" care less then well you actually do care to some degree.... *insert belittling comment here*