3.21 vs 3.92 Gear Ratio...will not be towing much.

[corneileous]

With the 3.21 and the 3.92, combined with the zf 8 speed, there is NO difference on the highway. That, is a fact. Do the math, look at the available gear ratios. We've done this ad nauseam on the other forum because people are coming from their background of 4 and 6 speeds and thinking a 3.92 is still significantly different in our new 8 speeds. It's not. Gear ratio = Gear ratio.

If my truck is pulling in 7th gear on the freeway, my gear ratio = 2.6322
Your truck will be in 8th, your rpms will ~ equal mine, your gear ratio = 2.5088 (diff of 0.1234)

If my truck is pulling in 6th gear on the freeway, my gear ratio = 3.21.
Your truck will be in 7th, your rpms will ~ equal mine, your gear ratio will be 3.2144 (diff of 0.0044)

If my truck is pulling in 5th gear on the freeway, my gear ratio = 4.2051
Your truck will be in 6th, your rpms will ~ equal mine, your gear ratio will be 3.92 (diff of 0.2851)

So to answer your question, yes, the 3.92 CAN pull more. But it's only really relevant immediately off the line, when both trucks are in first gear. Notice how extremely close those 3 gear ratios are too eachother? You will not notice a difference. Similar numbers for 5 out of the 8 gears.

The 8th gear in 3.21 will downshift on a hill sooner, but that's the entire point of the 3.21, give you that extra gear ratio past the 3.92 to keep your rpms lower on the freeway. If you run into a case where lots of hills give you lots of shifts into 7th, just use the gear limiter and now you're in the same gear as the 3.92 in 8th.

Yeah, as a matter of fact, I do remember that little discussion but in case you forgot, that was about you and a few others thinking a higher geared truck could run a quicker quarter mile or some ****. I wasn’t about the reason why there’s higher geared trucks and lower geared trucks so I’m not even gonna touch all that other diatribe you just typed.

Have you never driven on the freeway in 8th and thought "gee, these rpms are high and this motor has power to spare, I would love another gear"? I bet you have, well that is what the 8th gear in 3.21 feels like. Of course it will have to downshift sooner, but the upside is that you're saving quite a bit of gas.

No, I haven’t. See, you’re doing it again. Lol. I bought my 3.92 truck because that’s what I wanted. Sure, I am a little bit about gas mileage but, not really. If I was interested in saving gas, I most certainly wouldn’t have got what I got.

As for the WDH, I really have no idea why you said what you said about it then; the only thing that matters is that his truck will be payload limited, in either gear ratio. He will not be able to pull a travel trailer > 8000 pounds even WITH the 3.92 because he will be past the payload.

I brought it up because a weight-distribution hitch will put more of the tongue’s weight on the trailer reducing it on the hitch.

But I’m curious- Ram put a max trailer weight of 11,000 on my truck so explain to me why I wouldn’t be able to do that with a WDH and minimal weight in the bed?


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[corneileous]

They would never be in the same numerical gear (7th and 7th) at the same speed (unless you're manually gear limiting).

But remember, the 3.21 has a "3.21" gear ratio (in 6th). The 3.92 has a "3.2144" gear ratio (in 7th). Therefore if both trucks are travelling at the same speed, they will be using pretty much identical gear ratios, meaning, identical power/torque at that speed. (doesn't matter that the one truck is in 6th and the other in 7th, what matters is the gear ratio, and that's where they are equal).

The math works out in this specific case (zf 8 speed with 3.21 and 3.92) such that there are 5 pretty much identical gear ratios to choose from out on the highway. Then the 3.21 has an extra gear ratio, and the 3.92 has shorter gears around first and second.

So, off the line the 3.92 is going to pull harder. Once the trucks are in 3rd and beyond, there is no difference, they both have nearly identical gear ratios to choose from, just offset by one numerical gear number.

Where are you coming up with all this?? Unless the transmissions are different that use different gears, there’s no way that this could be true. And why do you keep referring to both trucks being in different gears saying that both are the same ratio when one is in a lower gear than the other?

Do you not understand that there’s power bands that the motors like where they run the best that higher rpms are better for more consistent power output? On a 3.21 geared truck, that driveline is turning 3.21 times to one revolution of the wheels. The driveline on the other truck turns 3.92 times to one revolution of the wheel. That’s why the 3.21’s are better for mileage, but not when power matters.


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[corneileous]

And lower RPM's for the 3:21 means the engine lasting longer, continuous high RPM's are not good for these engines.

What do you base that from?


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[Dodge 1500 4X4]

Facts not fiction you and your power bands!!

 

[Farmer Fran]

And lower RPM's for the 3:21 means the engine lasting longer, continuous high RPM's are not good for these engines.

And that is why when you are towing "heavy" you go 3.92.

 

[corneileous]

Facts not fiction you and your power bands!!

LOL, whatever.

**** poor factory recommendations on engine oil, especially engine oil weight, cheap factory paper oil filters and too long of oil change intervals with poor lifters due to the MDS, is what is the primary cause of how long these motors last, not how fast the motor turns so uh, what’s that fact vs fiction you speak of?


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[ramffml]

And why do you keep referring to both trucks being in different gears saying that both are the same ratio when one is in a lower gear than the other?

Because there is a difference between "numerical gear", like "1st" or "3rd" or "8th", and the actual gear ratio "3.21", "2.50" etc. It's possible for both trucks to use the same approximately equal "gear ratio", but still be in a different "numerical gear".

If I'm pulling my trailer at 60 mph, my truck requires the "3.21" gear ratio, and my rpms are about 2100(?) roughly. Your truck happens to have an approximately equal gear ratio, in your case it's "3.2144". This means that if your truck was pulling my trailer at 60 mph, the transmission would choose that gear ratio. The RPMS would be the same, the horsepower/torque would be the same, and the mph would be the same. No difference between our two trucks when the trucks are using those gear ratios.

It just so happens to be that in my truck, the "3.21" gear ratio has the label "6th" and in your truck the "3.2144" gear ratio has the label "7th". But the labels mean nothing, it's the physical gear size in use (ratio) that matters.

So you have to stop thinking about the trucks in "6th" gear or "7th" gears, as those are just labels. When you look at the actual gear ratio, the physical gears in use, both trucks have the same 5 approximately equal gear ratios available on the highway, therefore both trucks will perform identically while in those 5 gear ratios. Doesn't matter that the one truck uses a different label than the other.

 

[ramffml]

I brought it up because a weight-distribution hitch will put more of the tongue’s weight on the trailer reducing it on the hitch.

But I’m curious- Ram put a max trailer weight of 11,000 on my truck so explain to me why I wouldn’t be able to do that with a WDH and minimal weight in the bed?


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There are at least 2 limits on each truck. What you can tow (in your case, 11,000 pounds) and the weight you can carry on your axles (payload). You may be able to tow 11,000 pounds, but you can't carry more than (on average in most 5th gens) say 1300 to 1500 pounds unless you have a stripped down work truck.

A typical travel trailer has about 13% tongue weight. 11,000 pounds trailer means your tongue weight would be about 1450 pounds. Which means, just connecting your 11,000 pound trailer would put you at max payload for your truck. The problem is, when you hop in you weight 200 pounds. Your wife weighs 200 pounds. Add 2 kids at 100 pounds each, some luggage and stuff in the back + WDH, another 100 pounds. The weight of your trailer (1450) + the weight you add with your bodys and cargo (600) means that now your truck is carrying 2050 pounds.

See the problem? Your truck isn't rated to carry that much weight. You can tow it, but you can't carry it. Your truck is limited by the first limit you hit, be it payload or towing weight. You have to shed weight. Either kick out your family and travel solo, or, buy a smaller travel trailer.

I used the number 8000 pounds because that is more typical. An 8000 pound trailer would put 1050 pounds on the bed of your truck. Now you have a few hundred pounds before you hit max payload. You can add yourself and your wife, but that's probably it. It adds up really fast.

That's why you can't realistically tow > 8000 pounds. Unless you're towing a really large boat where tongue weight is more in the 5 to 10 percent range. 5th wheel? Don't even think about it, 1500's cannot tow any 5th wheel (short of 1 or 2 really small ones) because they put 20 to 25 percent tongue weight.

So yeah, ram rates your truck at 11,000 pounds, but you can't tow just any trailer at 11,000 pounds. There is massive difference between a boat trailer at 11,000 pounds, and a 5th wheel at 11,000 pounds which puts 2500 pounds on the bed of your truck.

You need to be under 11,000 pounds, and under max payload (approx 1500). You can't just worry about the 1 limit, both matter.

Bottom line: in my opinion, the 1500 is well suited for 0 to 8000 pounds. After that, just buy a 3/4 and tow it properly where it's actually possible to stay under both limits. The vast majority of the time, the 3.92 doesn't get you anything, unless you want to offroad it and want that extra crawl ratio, or you plan to run oversize tires.

 

[pacofortacos]

And lower RPM's for the 3:21 means the engine lasting longer, continuous high RPM's are not good for these engines.

Umm, with the 8 speed, the rear gear ratio doesn't even come into play for this. Since there is at most a 4-500 rpm difference between them and even at 70 mph with 3.92's - under 2000 rpms isn't "high rpms". It more of a low and lower rpm situation.

Under load, the rpms will be similar between the two as it will takes X amount of power to pull the load for both vehicles. Well at least until you drop below 5th gear, lower than that and the ratios will spread a little bit between the two. Above 5th gear as stated above it's just a difference of 1 gear between the two rear ratios.
So if I can tow my boat in 8th @ 70 mph and 1900 rpms, a 3.21 geared truck will just be in 7th and still at approx. 1900 rpms.

During normal driving both trucks are going to mostly range in the 1400-2000 rpm range as they go through the gears.

The hemi is built to run at higher rpms than past engines. As a reference, my old 2001 dakota with a 5.9 and 3.55 gears had about the same rpms @ 70 mph as my 16 ram with 3.92 gears does - just under 2000 rpms.

 

[Sportznut]

OP - sounds like you and I are similar in truck use. Like you, I have limited towing needs.

I have owned both the 3.21 (2014 Ram 1500 w/Hemi ) and my current 3.92 (2019 Ram 1500 w/Hemi). Love them both but I actually prefer the 3.21. Ran at lower RPM's - seemed like it wasn't working hard at any hwy speed, but the Hemi still tamed mountain passes easily.

I loved getting the extra 2-3 mpg w/3.21 but let's face it , for most people, that only translates to a couple hundred bucks a year at today's gas costs.



The reason I bought my current 3.92 was simple. It is what the dealer had on the lot in the configuration closest to my desires. I thought what the heck, I haven't owned the 3.92 so let's see what all the fuss is about. Turns out the 3.92 is good but overhyped. Especially for those that don't have serious towing needs. 3.21 w/Hemi is still a very powerful combo for a half ton truck.

If I did have serious towing needs I would probably just jump up to a 2500 or 3500 anyhow.

Good Luck in your hunt, I don't think you can go wrong with either set up.

 

[corneileous]

Because there is a difference between "numerical gear", like "1st" or "3rd" or "8th", and the actual gear ratio "3.21", "2.50" etc. It's possible for both trucks to use the same approximately equal "gear ratio", but still be in a different "numerical gear".

If I'm pulling my trailer at 60 mph, my truck requires the "3.21" gear ratio, and my rpms are about 2100(?) roughly. Your truck happens to have an approximately equal gear ratio, in your case it's "3.2144". This means that if your truck was pulling my trailer at 60 mph, the transmission would choose that gear ratio. The RPMS would be the same, the horsepower/torque would be the same, and the mph would be the same. No difference between our two trucks when the trucks are using those gear ratios.

It just so happens to be that in my truck, the "3.21" gear ratio has the label "6th" and in your truck the "3.2144" gear ratio has the label "7th". But the labels mean nothing, it's the physical gear size in use (ratio) that matters.

So you have to stop thinking about the trucks in "6th" gear or "7th" gears, as those are just labels. When you look at the actual gear ratio, the physical gears in use, both trucks have the same 5 approximately equal gear ratios available on the highway, therefore both trucks will perform identically while in those 5 gear ratios. Doesn't matter that the one truck uses a different label than the other.

Man, what you’re saying doesn’t make any sense. If both our transmissions are exactly the same with the same gears, your motor will always be turning fewer RPMs than mine simply because of the gears in the differentials. That’s why you have the potential to get more fuel mileage than me is because it takes more fuel to spin my motor faster because the 8-speed allows that Hemi to still give you sufficient enough power to move along even with a fairly high-geared rear end. It’s not rocket science.

Like I said several posts ago; if there really was no difference- like you pretty much keep preaching there isn’t then there would be no need for my lower gears or your higher gears. The only reason Ram does this is to entice more customers to buy their trucks and as long as those people just want a truck just to have a truck who doesn’t plan to do real truck stuff. That’s it.


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[ramffml]

Umm, with the 8 speed, the rear gear ratio doesn't even come into play for this. Since there is at most a 4-500 rpm difference between them and even at 70 mph with 3.92's - under 2000 rpms isn't "high rpms". It more of a low and lower rpm situation.

Under load, the rpms will be similar between the two as it will takes X amount of power to pull the load for both vehicles. Well at least until you drop below 5th gear, lower than that and the ratios will spread a little bit between the two. Above 5th gear as stated above it's just a difference of 1 gear between the two rear ratios.
So if I can tow my boat in 8th @ 70 mph and 1900 rpms, a 3.21 geared truck will just be in 7th and still at approx. 1900 rpms.

During normal driving both trucks are going to mostly range in the 1400-2000 rpm range as they go through the gears.

The hemi is built to run at higher rpms than past engines. As a reference, my old 2001 dakota with a 5.9 and 3.55 gears had about the same rpms @ 70 mph as my 16 ram with 3.92 gears does - just under 2000 rpms.

Agree mostly with this, except they share 5 very similar gear ratios. Once each truck is in 3rd and beyond, there is no difference for towing (since the 3.21 can't actually utilize its final gear ratio due to having insufficient power at those rpms).

So 3.92 gets you started from a stop easier. Once the 3.21 is in third, they're pretty much identical for towing.

 

[ramffml]

Man, what you’re saying doesn’t make any sense. If both our transmissions are exactly the same with the same gears, your motor will always be turning fewer RPMs than mine simply because of the gears in the differentials.

No it won't. If I'm driving 35 km/h in the city, I have several gear to choose from. First, second, third and fourth. I'd be screaming in first, but it would drive there. I'd be most comfortable in 4th, and since that's the lowest gear my truck would run without lugging, it makes the most sense to use that gear for highest fuel efficiency. Why run around revving?

Your mistake is thinking that because the 3.92 puts down more torque in 7th (for example) than the 3.21 does in 7th, that therefore the 3.92 is stronger. But my truck doesn't HAVE to be in 7th. It could be in 6th, 5th, or even revving really high in 4th. But in fact, it would be in 6th gear. Why? Because the 3.92 in 7th gear has the same gear ratio as the 3.21 in 6th.

So since both trucks can run in the same gear ratio, they would make the same power at that speed, and be turning the same RPMs. No difference.

That’s why you have the potential to get more fuel mileage than me is because it takes more fuel to spin my motor faster because the 8-speed allows that Hemi to still give you sufficient enough power to move along even with a fairly high-geared rear end. It’s not rocket science.

The 3.21 is only more efficient on the highway while it is running in 8th gear. Because it is using the 2.0544 gear ratio, and the lowest the 3.92 can go is 2.5088. It does not have a matching gear ratio so it revs higher on the freeway because it can't shift past 8th. Higher revs = higher fuel usage.

In the city, (or at any speed my truck cannot hold 8th), at that speed both trucks will get pretty much identical fuel mileage.

 

[corneileous]

There are at least 2 limits on each truck. What you can tow (in your case, 11,000 pounds) and the weight you can carry on your axles (payload). You may be able to tow 11,000 pounds, but you can't carry more than (on average in most 5th gens) say 1300 to 1500 pounds unless you have a stripped down work truck.

A typical travel trailer has about 13% tongue weight. 11,000 pounds trailer means your tongue weight would be about 1450 pounds. Which means, just connecting your 11,000 pound trailer would put you at max payload for your truck. The problem is, when you hop in you weight 200 pounds. Your wife weighs 200 pounds. Add 2 kids at 100 pounds each, some luggage and stuff in the back + WDH, another 100 pounds. The weight of your trailer (1450) + the weight you add with your bodys and cargo (600) means that now your truck is carrying 2050 pounds.

See the problem? Your truck isn't rated to carry that much weight. You can tow it, but you can't carry it. Your truck is limited by the first limit you hit, be it payload or towing weight. You have to shed weight. Either kick out your family and travel solo, or, buy a smaller travel trailer.

I used the number 8000 pounds because that is more typical. An 8000 pound trailer would put 1050 pounds on the bed of your truck. Now you have a few hundred pounds before you hit max payload. You can add yourself and your wife, but that's probably it. It adds up really fast.

That's why you can't realistically tow > 8000 pounds. Unless you're towing a really large boat where tongue weight is more in the 5 to 10 percent range. 5th wheel? Don't even think about it, 1500's cannot tow any 5th wheel (short of 1 or 2 really small ones) because they put 20 to 25 percent tongue weight.

So yeah, ram rates your truck at 11,000 pounds, but you can't tow just any trailer at 11,000 pounds. There is massive difference between a boat trailer at 11,000 pounds, and a 5th wheel at 11,000 pounds which puts 2500 pounds on the bed of your truck.

You need to be under 11,000 pounds, and under max payload (approx 1500). You can't just worry about the 1 limit, both matter.

Bottom line: in my opinion, the 1500 is well suited for 0 to 8000 pounds. After that, just buy a 3/4 and tow it properly where it's actually possible to stay under both limits. The vast majority of the time, the 3.92 doesn't get you anything, unless you want to offroad it and want that extra crawl ratio, or you plan to run oversize tires.

I get it, you’re only allowed so much payload but again, that’s why I mentioned a WDH. Not only does it level everything out when set up correctly but that’s the whole other point, is to reduce tongue weight so that you can take more advantage of what your truck can pull, and still have weight to play with on what’s in your truck.

And of course, I agree, if you’re approaching 11,000 pounds of trailer weight, you’re better off with a more suited truck in the first place.


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[ramffml]

Maybe it's easier to follow this way: running a 3.92 essentially moves all your gears down by 1.

3.21 3.92
- A
B B
C C
D D
E E
F F
G G
H H
I -

See how 3.92 has a gear ratio "A" which the 3.21 doesn't have. It digs really deep.
See how the 3.21 has a gear ratio "I" which the 3.92 doesn't have. It can run really low on the freeway

Beyond that, both trucks still have the same gear ratios ("B" through "H") to choose from. If the one truck requires gear ratio "G" (3.21) for a given load and speed, then the other truck can pick "H" and lug, "F" and rev higher than necessary, or pick "G" as well and run at the identical speed and rpms.

(In real life, only gear ratios D - H are actually close enough in both trucks to be considered equal, but this is why I've been saying "once you're moving and in 3rd gear, there is no difference")

 

[ramffml]

I get it, you’re only allowed so much payload but again, that’s why I mentioned a WDH. Not only does it level everything out when set up correctly but that’s the whole other point, is to reduce tongue weight so that you can take more advantage of what your truck can pull, and still have weight to play with on what’s in your truck.

And of course, I agree, if you’re approaching 11,000 pounds of trailer weight, you’re better off with a more suited truck in the first place.


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Ok, and I agree; but the WDH doesn't change anything with respect to 3.21 and 3.92. In the discussion we're having about gear ratios, a WDH doesn't change anything one way or the other. You don't get any increased payload ability with the 3.92. So if two otherwise identical trucks have different gear ratios, they will still have the exact same payload (say, 1500 pounds), and that means that the max you can realistically tow in 95% of the cases is like 8000 pounds.

You need to buy a work truck with no features to actually get your payload up, in order to actually tow > 8000 pounds.

 

[corneileous]

No it won't. If I'm driving 35 km/h in the city, I have several gear to choose from. First, second, third and fourth. I'd be screaming in first, but it would drive there. I'd be most comfortable in 4th, and since that's the lowest gear my truck would run without lugging, it makes the most sense to use that gear for highest fuel efficiency. Why run around revving?

Your mistake is thinking that because the 3.92 puts down more torque in 7th (for example) than the 3.21 does in 7th, that therefore the 3.92 is stronger. But my truck doesn't HAVE to be in 7th. It could be in 6th, 5th, or even revving really high in 4th. But in fact, it would be in 6th gear. Why? Because the 3.92 in 7th gear has the same gear ratio as the 3.21 in 6th.

So since both trucks can run in the same gear ratio, they would make the same power at that speed, and be turning the same RPMs. No difference.



The 3.21 is only more efficient on the highway while it is running in 8th gear. Because it is using the 2.0544 gear ratio, and the lowest the 3.92 can go is 2.5088. It does not have a matching gear ratio so it revs higher on the freeway because it can't shift past 8th. Higher revs = higher fuel usage.

In the city, (or at any speed my truck cannot hold 8th), at that speed both trucks will get pretty much identical fuel mileage.

So then what you’re saying even more doesn’t make any sense because with all that you’ve said, you’re essentially driving your truck like it has a 3.92 diff....[emoji2357]

I think you’re just breathing wayyyy to much into it and probably have the OP- if he’s still reading, confused as well.

If you like your higher geared truck then fine, leave it at that. There’s no point in trying this hard to convince somebody that the high-geared Ram 1500 is soo much better and that Ram wasted a bunch of time and energy with lower and higher diff gears.

I’ve driven my truck in the hills and in the Colorado Rockies. If I need to, I can put the trans in manual mode, pick a specific gear for a specific speed and I can pull it with ease on the up and the down and don’t have to cook my brakes. Not saying that you can too, just saying that my truck can do it easier because it’s not having to work as hard because it’s just like a multi-geared bicycle; mine is like the front sprocket bring on the middle one with the chain on the smallest wheel sprocket but yours is on the largest front sprocket. My rear wheel can turn easier than yours. And not only that, my engine is closer to its peak hp powerband as well.


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[corneileous]

Ok, and I agree; but the WDH doesn't change anything with respect to 3.21 and 3.92. In the discussion we're having about gear ratios, a WDH doesn't change anything one way or the other. You don't get any increased payload ability with the 3.92. So if two otherwise identical trucks have different gear ratios, they will still have the exact same payload (say, 1500 pounds), and that means that the max you can realistically tow in 95% of the cases is like 8000 pounds.

You need to buy a work truck with no features to actually get your payload up, in order to actually tow > 8000 pounds.

I never said anything about the 3.92’s changing payload. My responses regarding WDH’s was only about how you said we are limited to how much we can tow in the first place because of how much payload weight our trailer’s tongue takes up and like I said, if a WDH is set up properly, you reduce how much weight is riding on your hitch. That’s the whole point, is properly distributing the weight so that it’s not all on your rear axle of your tow vehicle and also why it’s even more important with a truck that has air ride or even one that someone has added air helper springs to because with those; and even my truck which has the four-corner air ride, without a WDH and since my air ride is auto-leveling, I actually have the potential to have even more weight on my rear axle because the rear suspension is making up for it by pushing the back of the truck up increasing the weight transfer but at least with my setup as opposed to just an aftermarket set of helper bags in the rear, my system actually lower my front end to compensate for the weight shift of the whole truck that goes towards the back.


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[MikeD03Ram1500]

@runamuck I like what you said about the nimbleness of the 3.92. I don't have any lift or lowering kit on my 03, but would like it to be a bit more "peppy" vs. "dragging". I'm not looking to make it a race car, but a little 'get up & go' is desirable while still allowing me to two a couple of jet skis and small fishing boat.

What are yalls thoughts on a 3.92 in an 03?

 

[ramffml]

So then what you’re saying even more doesn’t make any sense because with all that you’ve said, you’re essentially driving your truck like it has a 3.92 diff....[emoji2357]

No, I'm not driving my truck like a 3.92. Where do you get that idea from?

The 3.21 has the same physical gears to choose from as the 3.92. You seem to think that both trucks need to be in the same numerical gear (7th, for example) at the same speed; if your truck is in 7th, then mine must be too. But that's not the case. My truck can/will be in 6th, where it has the same physical gear as yours in 7th.

Any truck has multiple gear ratios to choose from for a given speed. I'm not locked to 7th just because you are in 7th. Transmissions mainly pick a gear ratio based on throttle input (load), and speed. If your truck says it needs 7th (3.2144) for the given load and speed, well my truck has the exact same gear ratio available: 3.21. Why would the transmission pick a different gear ratio? Why would it pick a lower gear ratio and lug, or a higher one and scream for no reason? We already know the engine can run at 3.2144 because you're running it there, therefore my transmission would pick 3.21 (6th) when yours is in 7th (3.2144).

Until you understand that simple fact, you will not understand why the 3.92 is not helping you like you think it is.