Living with MDS, 2019 6.4 w/ 65k

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Docwagon1776

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LOL at "machine whisperers". :D

It's not a matter of how fast it deactivates, it's the difference in how it sounds and feels both while activated and when it changes from activated/deactivated.

I've owned or been issued multiple MDS hemi equipped vehicles and never noted it myself, but I'm sure if I removed the resonator or went to an aftermarket exhaust it would be more obvious. I do have to laugh at people claiming lag, though, given how quickly it shuts off. Of course between pedal lag and MDS lag I assume some people's trucks must accelerate like a coal fired locomotive. "I'd like to accelerate, open the door and shovel in more coal, please."
 

mikeru

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I've owned or been issued multiple MDS hemi equipped vehicles and never noted it myself, but I'm sure if I removed the resonator or went to an aftermarket exhaust it would be more obvious. I do have to laugh at people claiming lag, though, given how quickly it shuts off. Of course between pedal lag and MDS lag I assume some people's trucks must accelerate like a coal fired locomotive. "I'd like to accelerate, open the door and shovel in more coal, please."
It's more noticeable on some trucks than others. The 2017 Rebel I had was very noticeable even before I upgraded the exhaust. The 2020 Laramie was better, but I could usually tell when it kicked in and out. The 2021 Limited I had was very good at hiding it, and I rarely disabled it in that truck. In our current 2020 Limited I can only tell now that I've upgraded the exhaust.

The MDS lag was negligible in all of them, and was definitely overshadowed by the small throttle lag.
 

Ratman6161

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Aftermarket exhaust really make the MDS noticeable . It’s not too bad in the Ram but I had a Camaro and when it came on sounded like a motor boat!
For the Ram it just became part of the start up/ drive “check list”, after start -drive-gear select -cruse -go.
Out of curiosity, did your Camaro have the factory performance exhaust? I ask because it sounds like what I have on my 2014 Corvette. When the Vette goes into 4 cyl mode, it also disables to two extra tail pipes which is a big part of the reason for the change in sound. Fortunately my Vette is a manual transmission and with the manual, it never goes into 4 cyl operation unless I have selected "Eco Mode" on the dial. FYI, automatic transmissions on a sports care are a crime against humanity which is why (along with the price) I'll never own a C8.
 

mikeru

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Out of curiosity, did your Camaro have the factory performance exhaust? I ask because it sounds like what I have on my 2014 Corvette. When the Vette goes into 4 cyl mode, it also disables to two extra tail pipes which is a big part of the reason for the change in sound. Fortunately my Vette is a manual transmission and with the manual, it never goes into 4 cyl operation unless I have selected "Eco Mode" on the dial. FYI, automatic transmissions on a sports care are a crime against humanity which is why (along with the price) I'll never own a C8.
I would tend to agree, although some of the newer cars with dual clutch transmissions can shift much faster than I can. So for pure performance I'd give the nod to those. But for me, for fun and driving pleasure in a sports car nothing beats a manual transmission.
 

Bad Tiki

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Out of curiosity, did your Camaro have the factory performance exhaust?

I changed the exhaust to Borla on the Camaro , the stock exhaust didn’t really notice much change when it went to MDS sound wise , plus stock units (SS/RS model) were two huge “suitcase” sized pieces , was plain crazy on a performance car
 

smittyd174

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To avoid the MDS from activating , drive like you stole it , but the speeding tickets could add up lol.
 

Sherman Bird

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The only way I can tell my MDS is functioning is the light on the dash comes on. Push the tow button and it never comes on. I live in a rural mountain area and the only time I see the MDS light is going downhil.
This is thanks to big advances in computer programming/ algorithms in control of automobiles. I remember in the 90's when GM started using "Cubed Logic" (AKA "fuzzy logic") to control shift quality AND to make TCC (torque converter clutch) engagement and disengagement almost imperceptible.
I was an automatic transmission specialist back then, and saw many failures of torque converters prematurely.
For purposes of CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index) I would modify the valve bodies of the GM transmissions to apply the converters more aggressively in order to extend the life of the transmissions. Nowadays, advances in this logic control have made the need to do that pretty much a thing of the past.
In those days, shift adaptive learn was having growing pains wherein say, the wife's Suburban was driven by Hubby for the weekend, or a trailer had been pulled, the algorithm would "adapt" to those driving habits and modify shift timing and feel. Many times, after the wife got the SUV back for her Monday thru Friday soccer mom life, she'd bring the vehicle in with tranny shift "feel" complaints; most often late and harsh. We'd explain that the condition would self resolve after she'd driven a couple of days. That would satisfy all but the more priggish of drivers. In those cases, I'd reset "Adaptive learn" back to factory default and they would be more satisfied along with the admonition that it still would take a couple of day's driving to reset to her habits.

Advances in these cylinder deactivation systems have begun to exploit the "spring action" of the de-powered cylinders to act like buffering accumulators to absorb the shock of dropping half the engine's power changes. These changes are akin to the fact that some aircraft can't fly without computer control air surfaces.

Automotive ADAS is another example of leaping advances in safety technology. ADAS saved my wife and 2 of her girlfriends on a 2-lane highway in Oklahoma a number of years ago. It was the classic of some idiot turning left in front of them, into their paths, them going high speed. The woman who was driving told me that the car's computer (A Toyota Camry) took over accelerator, electric steering, and ABS/VSC and they wound up stopped on the opposite side of the highway, turned around, scared out of their minds, but unhurt!
 

ramffml

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I do have to laugh at people claiming lag, though, given how quickly it shuts off.

That's because you're not talking about the same lag. No doubt the time it takes to deactivate (physically) once the computer sends the signal is extremely small; we're talking about the time it takes when you start pushing the pedal and you feel nothing, push more, feel nothing, finally a shudder and then it deactivates.

That lag is completely noticeable and is what we're talking about.

I will say I've noticed a difference in my truck based on oil. I'm running HPL PP 0w-30 and the shudder is gone 95% of the time. I still notice a lag and an exhaust note change.
 

Dusty

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I've owned or been issued multiple MDS hemi equipped vehicles and never noted it myself, but I'm sure if I removed the resonator or went to an aftermarket exhaust it would be more obvious. I do have to laugh at people claiming lag, though, given how quickly it shuts off. Of course between pedal lag and MDS lag I assume some people's trucks must accelerate like a coal fired locomotive. "I'd like to accelerate, open the door and shovel in more coal, please."
It's hard to define individual perception, and even worse if a person drives more than one different vehicle.

However, my current Ram 1500 has a 3.21 axle ratio, and after my two previous Rams with a 3.91 axle I do notice on occasion what some would refer to as a "lag" on downshifts.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, factory dual exhaust, 18” wheels. Build date: 3 June 2018. Now at 83009 miles
 

Docwagon1776

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How long does it take to downshift the transmission and does the MDS deactivate during that kick down or after? How much is actually Torque management and transmission tuning ? I bet the vast vast majority. With my prior Hemi/AWD pursuit rated car if I got in it hard before 3rd gear it fell in its face on the shift unless you deactivated nannies.
 

ThunderMug95

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For me it was audible, not felt in anyway. Magnaflow exhaust. I never thought it impeded performance in any way. Now that I have it disabled through tuning, it feels odd not to run the gear button up to 8! Its like im forgetting something…MDS, thin oil, its all a ploy
 

blackbetty14

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Same goes for millions of people with start stop tech…. Drives me nuts. I always disable it in the wife’s wagoneer but I’m the kind of guy that notices everything. I’ve built and worked on many of my cars and still building them so I’m astutely aware of all the small things on my vehicles. My wife is just like most of the population in which she can not feel or notice the MDS and the start stop doesn’t bug her in the jeep. For people to say it doesn’t exist or that is not noticeable or that it’s disabled in .4s is short minded thinking. People are different and notice different things so I accept that, sensitivity’s of people vary greatly as well. If you look at the MDS system and what is entailed in shutting it down and re-activating I don’t think that .4s number is truthful. Solenoid needs to be energized/de-energized oil needs to flow and repressurize the channel and lifter and build up the operating pressure. .4s sounds accurate to re-energize the solenoid only. Now if I poked you with a sharp object for less than .4s are you telling me you wouldn’t feel or notice it? Lol. I hate it and I notice it so I disable it end of story for me.

Also I had the factory exhaust for 2 years and mds was not audibly noticeable unless you were looking for it. Aftermarket exhaust makes it way more noticeable.
 
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Docwagon1776

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Same goes for millions of people with start stop tech…. Drives me nuts. I always disable it in the wife’s wagoneer but I’m the kind of guy that notices everything. I’ve built and worked on many of my cars and still building them so I’m astutely aware of all the small things on my vehicles. My wife is just like most of the population in which she can not feel or notice the MDS and the start stop doesn’t bug her in the jeep. For people to say it doesn’t exist or that is not noticeable or that it’s disabled in .4s is short minded thinking. People are different and notice different things so I accept that, sensitivity’s of people vary greatly as well. If you look at the MDS system and what is entailed in shutting it down and re-activating I don’t think that .4s number is truthful. Solenoid needs to be energized/de-energized oil needs to flow and repressurize the channel and lifter and build up the operating pressure. .4s sounds accurate to re-energize the solenoid only. Now if I poked you with a sharp object for less than .4s are you telling me you wouldn’t feel or notice it? Lol. I hate it and I notice it so I disable it end of story for me.

Also I had the factory exhaust for 2 years and mds was not audibly noticeable unless you were looking for it. Aftermarket exhaust makes it way more noticeable.

Everybody notices stop/start. If they care or not is a different question.

You do know the fuel injector pulse length and time between cycles by design and in normal operation is well within the .04 second range, right? Like even without MDS the injectors are capable of pulsing at that rate? Not sure why you would think Chrysler is lying about it, especially given how easy it would be to disprove, but ok.
 

blackbetty14

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Everybody notices stop/start. If they care or not is a different question.

You do know the fuel injector pulse length and time between cycles by design and in normal operation is well within the .04 second range, right? Like even without MDS the injectors are capable of pulsing at that rate? Not sure why you would think Chrysler is lying about it, especially given how easy it would be to disprove, but ok.
Everyone does notice it but does it bother everyone?

Do you understand how an injector works and how it works in its operational environment? The operational times are in the mili seconds and I’m fully aware of injector data and how fast they operate. The MDS system is a different animal besides the fact that they share a “solenoid”. How does ram deactivate the cylinders? Cuts oil pressure right? Through a passage way and as it’s cut oil do you think the oil in that passage and lifter and lifter bore is still filled with pressurized oil? What happens when the oil and pressure bleeds down when the MDS is deactivated and then it’s re-activated? It now needs to move a thicker fluid (oil not gas) and repressurize the passage, lifter and bore. So while the solenoid is quick acting the process to get back to state before the MDS is activated is slower and I doubt happens as fast as a blink of an eye. An injector has a much less viscosity fluid at high pressure waiting at the solenoid, open the solenoid and it shoots fuel into a vacuum at basically no restriction and no need to have to repressurize.

Tell me why a lifter can take a few sec to pump up with oil on startup? What do you think is happening to the Hemi lifters as you cut oil pressure to them and the valve springs and pushrods are pushing the oil out of them every revolution.

And what do you mean Chrysler has no reason to lie? Lol… exhaust manifold bolts, cam/lifter issues, screen delamination issues just to name a few. All things they don’t admit fault for!
 

Docwagon1776

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Everyone does notice it but does it bother everyone?

Do you understand how an injector works and how it works in its operational environment? The operational times are in the mili seconds and I’m fully aware of injector data and how fast they operate. The MDS system is a different animal besides the fact that they share a “solenoid”. How does ram deactivate the cylinders? Cuts oil pressure right? Through a passage way and as it’s cut oil do you think the oil in that passage and lifter and lifter bore is still filled with pressurized oil?

Yes, of course it's still filled with pressurized oil. Just at a lower pressure, roughly 19%. You think it bleeds down to zero?

You think data logging wouldn't immediately expose the "lie"? C'mon.

That does bring up a point, though. I wonder how many of you complaining about MDS are using an oil other than recommended. Like the old 7.3L diesels with oil activated injectors, cold romp start ups were very apparent with dino oil but disappeared with synthetics. Of course the 6.4L is different, but using a thicker oil than called for likely would delay the pressure building back up and exacerbate it in colder temps.
 

ramffml

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Yes, of course it's still filled with pressurized oil. Just at a lower pressure, roughly 19%. You think it bleeds down to zero?

You think data logging wouldn't immediately expose the "lie"? C'mon.

That does bring up a point, though. I wonder how many of you complaining about MDS are using an oil other than recommended. Like the old 7.3L diesels with oil activated injectors, cold romp start ups were very apparent with dino oil but disappeared with synthetics. Of course the 6.4L is different, but using a thicker oil than called for likely would delay the pressure building back up and exacerbate it in colder temps.

Oil viscosity doesn't change it noticeably, in fact there is more viscosity change going from -20 deg C to 100 deg C (like my truck does in the winter) vs going from a 20w to a 30w at 100 deg C.

I also noticed the MDS far more in factory speced oil than I do now running "unapproved" oil. Maybe this is just due to the engine wearing in over time, I never did run factory spec oil beyond the second oil change.
 

DA Smith

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It could be that you're just not as in touch with what you're driving as others are. I come from a farming background, where being aware of the equipment you're operating is critical. Noticing small sounds or vibrations can mean the difference between replacing a $10 bearing or spending hundreds or even thousands of dollars to tear into a machine to replace a major component that failed after the bearing seized. Some people are more sensitive to those things than others are.
After driving all the Rams I've had and usually putting 100k on them before getting another one adds up to about 900,000 k miles. Never had any mechanical issues so I guess when you drive a Ram you really don't have to be too sensitive or in tune with your Truck because they just keep on going. I think the problem with these people saying how they feel the MDF is mainly a mental issue because they don't like the thought of running on four cylinders when eight is not needed.
 

pacofortacos

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Everyone does notice it but does it bother everyone?

Do you understand how an injector works and how it works in its operational environment? The operational times are in the mili seconds and I’m fully aware of injector data and how fast they operate. The MDS system is a different animal besides the fact that they share a “solenoid”. How does ram deactivate the cylinders? Cuts oil pressure right? Through a passage way and as it’s cut oil do you think the oil in that passage and lifter and lifter bore is still filled with pressurized oil? What happens when the oil and pressure bleeds down when the MDS is deactivated and then it’s re-activated? It now needs to move a thicker fluid (oil not gas) and repressurize the passage, lifter and bore. So while the solenoid is quick acting the process to get back to state before the MDS is activated is slower and I doubt happens as fast as a blink of an eye. An injector has a much less viscosity fluid at high pressure waiting at the solenoid, open the solenoid and it shoots fuel into a vacuum at basically no restriction and no need to have to repressurize.

Tell me why a lifter can take a few sec to pump up with oil on startup? What do you think is happening to the Hemi lifters as you cut oil pressure to them and the valve springs and pushrods are pushing the oil out of them every revolution.

And what do you mean Chrysler has no reason to lie? Lol… exhaust manifold bolts, cam/lifter issues, screen delamination issues just to name a few. All things they don’t admit fault for!
Actually they deactivate by adding pressure. And it has nothing to do with lifters pumping up or bleeding down. It's all done by moving a pin in the lifter via oil pressure.

Getting cylinder deactivation to happen from a practical standpoint takes some pretty precise engineering. Within the lube circuit of the Hemi's hydraulic roller lifters are four control valve solenoids that when energized by the ECM through the harness divert pressurized oil to a locking pin in the lifter. When this pin is pushed into the body of the lifter, the roller on the lifter can still follow the cam profile, but the motion is no longer translated to the plungerthe part of the lifter that engages the pushrod. When the ECM de-energizes the solenoid, the spring-loaded pin engages with the plunger and all the parts of the lifter have the same motion again.
 
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