2003 Ram 2500 headlights come on when truck is off and battery(s) will drain.

[Bruce F]

Hi all,

This trucks headlights and taillights will come on after the truck is shut down, key removed, and walking away.

They will stay on until the batteries die.

No aftermarket security/alarm/remote start.

It seems most any action with the key off or removed (opening door, opening glove box, closing glove box, turning lights on then off, horn, high beam lever...) will turn off the headlamps within 10 seconds.
Then they come back on after about 20 seconds.

Any ideas or questions to help me toubleshoot this would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bruce F

 

[tron67j]

Perhaps a bit more information such
trim level, if you have had problem since buying vehicle, if you bought it new or used, did anything unusual happen before it started like driving through deep fluffy snow, through high standing water, etc.

 

[Bruce F]

Perhaps a bit more information such
trim level, if you have had problem since buying vehicle, if you bought it new or used, did anything unusual happen before it started like driving through deep fluffy snow, through high standing water, etc.

More information will be limited, as this is a customer's truck, but Ill do my best.
Trim level SLT
Mileage 160k
Truck is very clean for being 23 years old.
Not sure when they bought the truck, I believe a few years ago.
I haven't worked on this truck before (have worked on customer's other equipment)
Customer states they haven't ran through any deep water. We have had only a couple snows of limited amounts. Truck is only 2WD so not driven when there's a lot of snow.
This symptom/defect just happened (they contacted me about two weeks ago, then brought it to me 5 days ago).
They have replaced the TIPM (Totally Integrated Power Module) Edit: BCM not the TIPM with a used one from a salvage yard, same symptoms...
It seems most any action with the key off or removed (opening door, opening glove box, closing glove box, turning lights on then off, horn, high beam lever...) will turn off the headlamps within 10 seconds.

There is one other defect/flaw:
Ignition key lock cyl/switch is a little "jiggy".
When turned to "start" then released for "run", the HVAC and radio(?) don't work sometimes unless you move ("jiggle") the key/lock cyl back slightly. I will most likely replace this as it is not functioning 100% and could be the cause of this new symptom.
^^^I think this has been this way a while^^^ I will ask them.

There is a slight communication barrier (I am not bi-lingual).

A new development:
Truck was parked for 2 days outside (batteries disconnected).
When I started, brought inside, and turned off all was normal (like it fixed itself).
Lights stayed off for a very long time, maybe several minutes, much longer than when they would typically come back on.
Until (it seems) the glove box was opened and closed.
Then the truck went back into it's mode where the lamps would continue to come back on after 15-20 seconds.

I left the truck inside last night with the batteries disconnected.
This morning I've reconnected the batteries and for well over an hour the lights remain off.
I've also turned the headlamps on and off, opened and closed the door, with the key still out of the ignition and the lamps have remained off.

I will continue through the day and report back with any new developments.

Thank you
Bruce F

 

[tron67j]

The key switch could cause the lights to be in, and if it is not functioning correctly, as it appears to be defective per your description, I would start there. Once replaced, keep battery full disconnected for a while and then reconnect and go through a couple start/drive 15 minutes/shut off cycles. I had a 2003 2500 and that helped with a electrical gremlin I fixed.

If the problem persists maybe the Body Control Module is bad or has corroded contacts. I would check the light switch as well, mostly looking for corroded contacts. Was the TIPM new? That could have corroded contacts as well.

 

[Bruce F]

The key switch could cause the lights to be in, and if it is not functioning correctly, as it appears to be defective per your description, I would start there. Once replaced, keep battery full disconnected for a while and then reconnect and go through a couple start/drive 15 minutes/shut off cycles. I had a 2003 2500 and that helped with a electrical gremlin I fixed.

If the problem persists maybe the Body Control Module is bad or has corroded contacts. I would check the light switch as well, mostly looking for corroded contacts. Was the TIPM new? That could have corroded contacts as well.

Replacing the ignition switch solved the run/on position not working properly issue.
Switch has "positive" on off start positions now.
Did not solve the headlights coming on when truck is off.

Customer replaced the BCM(?) which plugs into the side of the fuse relay center (TIPM??) with a used one from the junkyard. The truck had the same symptoms after the replacement.

I have several times had the batteries disconnected for extended times (even overnight). Also have jumpered the cables together while the cables were off the batteries a few times for several minutes to hours.

Funny thing is, when I put the cables back on after being off the batteries overnight, the truck will sit there normally for a long time with no abnormal behaviors. Like right now the cables have been connected for probably 1/2 hour or more and the headlamps are off. I feel like if I do anything (like start the truck, turn on something...) it will go back into it's fault mode (headlight on forever...).

Problem seems to be possibly coming from the fuse relay center...

 

[Bruce F]

I will add, and don't know if this is normal, the truck headlight seem to only work when turning on the headlight switch (ie, no daytime running lights, coming on when truck is put in gear, don't seem to flash when locking/unlocking the doors, turn on when truck is shut off...).
I don't know enough about this vintage Ram truck to know if this is standard operating procedure (SOP).
My daily driver is a 94 Explorer. That car/truck only does what I ask it to. It doesn't think on it's own and decide what I want. Doesn't even have a brake shifter interlock (the good old days!).

 

[tron67j]

My 2003 did not have daytime running lights but don't know if it was an option. Getting past my expertise here, but the issue of things working okay for a bit after battery disconnect but then going wrong soon after kind of sounds like a bad capacitor in the delay off system. Maybe someone more adept at electrical systems can jump in to help.

 

[Bruce F]

I think, but not 100% yet, the problem may be in the fuse box assembly.

I did find that when I tap lightly a relay or two in the fuse center the lights will turn off.
I've swapped out the questionable relays with no positive results.

I did find that if I remove the fuel heater relay the truck will behave and the headlights stay off.

 

[1999 White C5 Coupe]

I will add, and don't know if this is normal, the truck headlight seem to only work when turning on the headlight switch (ie, no daytime running lights, coming on when truck is put in gear, don't seem to flash when locking/unlocking the doors, turn on when truck is shut off...).
I don't know enough about this vintage Ram truck to know if this is standard operating procedure (SOP).
My daily driver is a 94 Explorer. That car/truck only does what I ask it to. It doesn't think on it's own and decide what I want. Doesn't even have a brake shifter interlock (the good old days!).

Is it possible the problem lies in a shorted headlamp switch assembly?

 

[Bruce F]

Anything is possible. ‍

I don’t like to fire the parts cannon, unless I’m pretty sure I load it with the correct ammunition.

Yesterday I found that if I pulled the fuel heater relay the truck would act correctly. It actually behaved as if nothing was wrong. I was tempted to leave the truck batteries connected overnight but decided against that.

Today I connected the batteries and started it, I operated all the accessories (wipers, HVAC, lights, in and out of gear, beeped the horn…), shut off the truck, got out and remote locked/unlocked/locked the doors. Then walked away. Several hours later, truck was still sitting there “normal”.

However, I wanted to check the parasitic draw and found about 1/2 amp. So something is drawing.
IDK what is acceptable “idle” draw, but would think anything above 40-50 mA on a 2003 would be considered high.

Tonight I was brave and left the batteries connected. I’ll see how the batteries “feel” in the morning.

A curious observation: with the fuel heater relay out, the door locking and unlocking would chirp the horn and flash the marker lamps (the truck was not doing that consistently before).
I will test that anomaly tomorrow with and without the relay plugged in and see if it repeats itself.

 

[tron67j]

Corrosion is often a contributing factor in electronic problems as you know, and replacement if the original TIPM with a used one could have just perpetuated the problem. What would be interesting is it installing the original TIPM back keeps the same issue you found with that relay. But that takes time and money although it could result in a high likelihood of confirmation that you have the problem identified. It could be corroded contacts in that relay section, or maybe where it connects to the unit it controls. Maybe also test the heater component itself and the wires. These are out of my level of knowledge as I have never had a dusel and don't know much about it. There is a Cummins thread with a lot of smart people, maybe posting there with the issues you are finding with the relay might get some more visibility.

 

[Bruce F]

replacement if the original TIPM with a used one could have just perpetuated the problem. What would be interesting is it installing the original TIPM back keeps the same issue you found with that relay.

The TIPM was not replaced, only the BCM (which plugs into the TIMP) was replaced by the customer before he brought it to me.
Today the truck batteries were down slightly(?). Voltage was reading 12.5ish for each battery.
There are two different batteries in the truck, of unknown age to me. It could probably use a pair of new good batteries, but that shouldn't be the problem/symptom I'm experiencing now.

A curious observation: with the fuel heater relay out, the door locking and unlocking would chirp the horn and flash the marker lamps (the truck was not doing that consistently before).
I will test that anomaly tomorrow with and without the relay plugged in and see if it repeats itself.

I didn't try this today, maybe tomorrow I'll remember and give it a try.

 

[tron67j]

Above it says the TIPM was replaced. That could be an issue if it wasn't, do a search in here as that has been discussed a bit.

 

[RamDiver]

Today the truck batteries were down slightly(?). Voltage was reading 12.5ish for each battery.
There are two different batteries in the truck, of unknown age to me. It could probably use a pair of new good batteries, but that shouldn't be the problem/symptom I'm experiencing now.

12.5 VDC doesn't sound too bad, but if there is any question about the capacity or current availability from the batteries, load test with a toaster-style battery load tester like this $18 Harbour Freight device.

100 Amp, 6/12V Battery Load Tester

Amazing deals on this 100 Amp 6/12V Battery Load Tester at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

Digital type load testers do not apply any significant load and will often result in false positives when a flaky cell is misbehaving.

Chances are if a battery was causing problems, we would see more DTCs, but are you feeling lucky?

.

 

[Bruce F]

Above it says the TIPM was replaced. That could be an issue if it wasn't, do a search in here as that has been discussed a bit.

You are correct, it does say that. I edited to reflect that it was the BCM NOT the TIPM

 

[Bruce F]

load test with a toaster-style battery load tester

I have one of them, somewhere...

The truck has started and run with no battery charger attached, and the battery cables attached for two days. I've parked it outside, so I'll see how it does for a cold start tomorrow at around 20°F.

I think the customer may use it with the fuel heater relay unplugged, even with the 400ish mA draw at rest. Provided it is run daily for a bit, the draw may not drain the batteries to a "no start" condition.
They are aware of this.
I've encouraged them to find a TIPM that we can try. There are a few on EBay for $250-$350.

I'll update as I get new info...

Bruce F

 

[tron67j]

Since the TIPM is original and the relay removal seems to create something of a fix it might be worth it to clean all the contacts of the unit. But still not sure why fuel heater relay affected lights.

 

[Bruce F]

Me either!
Actually the marker light relay also would get the headlamps to turn off as well. BUT, you can't use it with no markers.

There were a couple times when I was "moving" the TIPM around, the lamps would go out. Then 20-30 seconds later they came back on.
With some judicious tapping it seemed the fuel htr relay made the lights go off .
So, I made the decision, running without a fuel heater might be better than not running...

Probably some elec gremlin back feeding through the relay.
Damn gremlins (don't feed after midnight!).

edit to add: I tried some new relays with no difference.

 

[Bruce F]

Next morning:

Truck sat outside overnight in temps between 20°F and 30°F.
It started fine this morning, so the 1/2ish amp (6Watt???) draw was not enough to negatively effect the capacity of these batteries.

Digital type load testers do not apply any significant load and will often result in false positives when a flaky cell is misbehaving.

I've actually had the reverse happen, where my digital tester will condemn batteries I thought were good.

Customer may take truck as is or try to find a TIPM at a "reasonable" cost.

 

[Dusty]

I'm not sure I'd trust a boneyard BCM. The BCM in the vehicle may not be the correct one or a good one.

The symptoms you list are associated with a defective BCM. A scan tool can determine which modules remain on after the rest go into sleep mode, and of course troubleshooting the excessive current draw (should be 50-70 MA.).

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 146503 miles.