A can of worms.. Payload.. Why?

[dhay13]

Gear change will not change payload in equal trucks. Payload is calculated by taking GVWR and subtracting curb weight. So if GVWR is 10,000 and curb weight is 7500lbs then payload will be 2500lbs, no matter what gears, tires, or anything is on it. If you add running boards, tonneau cover, tool box, etc, then that takes away from available payload. So unless the 4.10's weigh more than 3.73's then payload will not change. Towing capacity will change but not payload. If your commercial rep told you it will add payload then he is wrong. Upgrading to higher GVWR will add payload capacity so if he told you that then that is correct. Ford F250's I believe have a GVWR of 10,800 so they automatically get 800lbs more payload (less any differences in curb weight)

 

[RamRigger]

Rafke77,
So let me get this straight. Your commercial rep said : "I spoke to a commercial rep at a local dealer, he explained the trucks are identical, the only difference is the suspension, leafs vs coils." So is he saying that some 3500's have coils? Or are you comparing a 2500 to a 3500? I think I recall you having a 2500 like I do.

If that's the case then, he is mistaken. We already dealt with the frame differences. The 3500 has several more cross-members making those frames much more stable and considerably stronger.

Take a look again at the attached pics I added on page 5 of this discussion

And for adding cross members in addition to air bags, (helper springs are not added to coils), as far as I know, but to existing leaf springs. This all seems far too expensive if the suggestion is to remake a 2500 into a 3500. I just don't see the justification from a financial point (if I understand your meaning).

 

[Rafke77]

Rafke77,
So let me get this straight. Your commercial rep said : "I spoke to a commercial rep at a local dealer, he explained the trucks are identical, the only difference is the suspension, leafs vs coils." So is he saying that some 3500's have coils? Or are you comparing a 2500 to a 3500? I think I recall you having a 2500 like I do.

If that's the case then, he is mistaken. We already dealt with the frame differences. The 3500 has several more cross-members making those frames much more stable and considerably stronger.

Take a look again at the attached pics I added on page 5 of this discussion

And for adding cross members in addition to air bags, (helper springs are not added to coils), as far as I know, but to existing leaf springs. This all seems far too expensive if the suggestion is to remake a 2500 into a 3500. I just don't see the justification from a financial point (if I understand your meaning).

That was me asking the commercial rep, but yes I was comparing the 2500 to 3500 and he told me it's just the suspension that's different, 3500 having leaf springs and 2500 having coil, even though those pictures you posted showed different. However, the pictures might be off as well, because of my 2500 having those "ladder bars" and the picture not showing they're there. When I have more time I'm going to crawl underneath my truck and see exactly how many frame cross members are there. Correct I have a 2500.


I'm sorry, I was using the term helper springs to describe those "sumo springs". I should have been more clear on what I was trying to describe, my fault.

Exactly correct. Not only to remake a 2500 into a 3500 (which was not my intentions) but even to purchase a gas 3500 over a gas 2500. There is no benefit except for a higher payload which I believe can be achieved by adding bags to the 2500 and achieving the same'ish spring tension as leaf springs.

Again my 2500 will tow the 5er we are looking at getting. Personally I like a larger safety margin then what I have. Towing capability is not the problem, my truck can tow over 14,500 lb. The dry weight of the trailer I want is 10,200. It is the hitch weight which will put me to close to payload max depending on whether you go by GVWR or GAWR rear. I went to a local scale the other day to weigh my truck and 3 of us total included. With my front tires pulled off the scale, my rear weight was 3580lbs. Total truck weight 7700 with us in it. Going by GVWR that will give me 2300lbs. of payload I can add. Dry weight of the hitch is 1980lb. 2300-1980= 320lbs is all that's left for anything extra in truck and added hitch weight when trailer is loaded, which I do not know off hand what percentage of the weight is transferred to the truck and trailer axles.

If I go by GAWR rear I feel more comfortable. Door sticker for GAWR rear is 6390lbs. 6390-3580= 2810lbs. 2810-1980(hitch weight)=830lbs left for extra payload.

So I'm going to try and guess high on these numbers 2000 lbs for people and supplies plus the dry trailer weight 10200 equals 12200lbs of total towing weight. Still well within range, it's just the payload that's making me rethink everything.

 

[392DevilDog]

The issue between 2500 coils and 3500 leafs is the placement on the axle.

Sure you can add all the help you want...but the leafs are out farther on the axle aiding in high center of gravity loads. Like a heavy pinned 5th Wheel or large slide in camper.

There is plenty different between a 2500 and a 3500, but everyone wants a 2500 to be magical...and until the day the difference jumps out and bites you ..it will be.

I have been in this debate for years now. I am over it. The same info keeps coming up.
The, my 2500 can do all the same things a 3500 can do crowd chime in right up until points are made why that is not true.

Facts always separate the arguments.

But, since we are in opinions...here is my opinion why I have not jumped up to 3500.

1. I own 2 leaf spring 2500 trucks. A 99 and an 03. The 15 with coils is worlds more comfortable and plenty more capable.

2. I do not want to pay the extra registration fee here in PA.

3. I could not have loaded anymore wood in a 3500 than my 2500, I have no intentions for a 5th wheel or a large slide in camper.

 

[Rafke77]

The issue between 2500 coils and 3500 leafs is the placement on the axle.

Sure you can add all the help you want...but the leafs are out farther on the axle aiding in high center of gravity loads. Like a heavy pinned 5th Wheel or large slide in camper.

There is plenty different between a 2500 and a 3500, but everyone wants a 2500 to be magical...and until the day the difference jumps out and bites you ..it will be.

I have been in this debate for years now. I am over it. The same info keeps coming up.
The, my 2500 can do all the same things a 3500 can do crowd chime in right up until points are made why that is not true.

Facts always separate the arguments.

But, since we are in opinions...here is my opinion why I have not jumped up to 3500.

1. I own 2 leaf spring 2500 trucks. A 99 and an 03. The 15 with coils is worlds more comfortable and plenty more capable.

2. I do not want to pay the extra registration fee here in PA.

3. I could not have loaded anymore wood in a 3500 than my 2500, I have no intentions for a 5th wheel or a large slide in camper.View attachment 509423

I like those pictures thanks for sharing!
I have noticed the leaf springs are directly behind the tires. This is the location those air bags mount, so I'd guess it would help balance out the load as well as leafs.
I appreciate your opinions just as much as I would appreciate any facts.
I'm not trying to cause a arguing debate between the 25 vs. 35 crowd, I just want to know true facts on any differences, and I was hoping someone might know.
I like being able to challenge opinions, and I like being proven wrong. So please, if you know of any facts I'm all for learning!
I think the one fact we can all agree on is registration fees being the difference in the two for how the truck is rated on paper. But what is real world differences?

 

[392DevilDog]

I like those pictures thanks for sharing!
I have noticed the leaf springs are directly behind the tires. This is the location those air bags mount, so I'd guess it would help balance out the load as well as leafs.
I appreciate your opinions just as much as I would appreciate any facts.
I'm not trying to cause a arguing debate between the 25 vs. 35 crowd, I just want to know true facts on any differences, and I was hoping someone might know.
I like being able to challenge opinions, and I like being proven wrong. So please, if you know of any facts I'm all for learning!
I think the one fact we can all agree on is registration fees being the difference in the two for how the truck is rated on paper. But what is real world differences?

If I get a chance...I will regurgitate my information again.

You are hitting the nail on the head...and as usual...the conversation has died off

No one wants to hear that the truck they bought is not the best tool for the job they want to do

 

[392DevilDog]

I order a 3500 that pulls less then a 2500 *if properly equipped*

The hemi maxes out on GCWR. A 3500 weighs more than a 2500.

So technically, the lighter 2500 can tow more.

The diagrams have shown why there is a weight difference.

A Hemi HeftyDuty is GCWR limited. Whether it is a 3500 regular cab or a 2500 crew cab short bed...it is limited to the same GCWR. Which is determined by rear gear. The 3.73 having less than the 4.10.

That is you factual answer.

Tradesman Regular cab being the most towing and Limited/Laramie Crew Cab Long bed having the least towing

 

[392DevilDog]

The SO diesel is also ultimately GCWR limited in the 3500 series. The HO continues in were it dies.

Hope this makes sense...

GCWR minus base weight equals max towing.

I can explain more...but running out of time...got to drive home.

 

[Rafke77]

The hemi maxes out on GCWR. A 3500 weighs more than a 2500.

So technically, the lighter 2500 can tow more.

The diagrams have shown why there is a weight difference.

A Hemi HeftyDuty is GCWR limited. Whether it is a 3500 regular cab or a 2500 crew cab short bed...it is limited to the same GCWR. Which is determined by rear gear. The 3.73 having less than the 4.10.

That is you factual answer.

Tradesman Regular cab being the most towing and Limited/Laramie Crew Cab Long bed having the least towing

I just want to compare apples to apples, I go on Rams site and plug in a 2500 and 3500 Laramie, same gas engine, same trans, same gears, same packages. It will show the 2500 being able to tow more, but the 3500 has a much higher payload. Only difference is the rear suspension. I know the frames are identical because they are interchangeable, but the GVWR of a 3500 is 14000, as opposed to 10000.
I know the 4.10 will tow heavier loads over the 3.73. that's not what I'm interested in knowing. I'm wanting to know why the 3500 can have a much higher payload.

 

[Rafke77]

The SO diesel is also ultimately GCWR limited in the 3500 series. The HO continues in were it dies.

Hope this makes sense...

GCWR minus base weight equals max towing.

I can explain more...but running out of time...got to drive home.

Appreciated, I know the diesels will tow a tremendous amount. But my question is moreso about payload.

 

[White six four]

If that's the case then, he is mistaken. We already dealt with the frame differences. The 3500 has several more cross-members making those frames much more stable and considerably stronger.

@Rafke77 ^^^ he already said why the 3500 has a higher payload

 

[392DevilDog]

Appreciated, I know the diesels will tow a tremendous amount. But my question is moreso about payload.

GVWR MINUS BASE WEIGHT EQUALS PAYLOAD.

a HEMI weighs less than a Cummins therefore has more payload.

A 2500 weighs less than 3500. But a 3500 has a higher GVWR.

2500 GVWR is capped at 10k...hemi, diesel, reg cab, crew cab, short bed, long bed

A 3500 has a different GVWR for each configuration.

A Diesel crew cab has more than a HEMI cree cab.

A long bed has more than a short bed.

This is all because each frame is more rigid than the next, and because the diesel can control weight better over a 10k limit.

I mentioned the GCWR debate cause there is a ton of misinformation in this thread about rear gears and payload and why one truck has more than another.

Payload is directly affected by trim level. More base weight means less payload

 

[392DevilDog]

Appreciated, I know the diesels will tow a tremendous amount. But my question is moreso about payload.

I quoted your post...where you say you want to know why a 3500 tows less than a 2500.

I am out

 

[06 Dodge]

I just want to compare apples to apples, I go on Rams site and plug in a 2500 and 3500 Laramie, same gas engine, same trans, same gears, same packages. It will show the 2500 being able to tow more, but the 3500 has a much higher payload. Only difference is the rear suspension. I know the frames are identical because they are interchangeable, but the GVWR of a 3500 is 14000, as opposed to 10000.
I know the 4.10 will tow heavier loads over the 3.73. that's not what I'm interested in knowing. I'm wanting to know why the 3500 can have a much higher payload.

IIRC the frames and rear suspension were the same up to the time they went to using coil springs in the 2500 IIRC 2019. I believe ( could be wrong) that GVWR is also based on the trucks classification under DOT rules...

 

[tron67j]

Always interesting to see where these discussions of payload capacity go.

With the countless threads and opinions on the payload issue, it still all goes back to the engineer-certified numbers found on the door jamb and the value found through a VIN search. These are not arbitrary.

There is a reason that 3/4 ton trucks have a max GVWR of 10,000 pounds. It may be benefits of staying in the light duty (yes, 3/4 ton pickup trucks are classified as light duty Class 2 by Federal rating) range. But it is not responsible to just think that limit can be exceeded without performing all due diligence first. I do not have the empirical, theoretical, and practical knowledge to know if this is a possibility, so prudence dictates I stay under the maximum numbers.

To make a decision to exceed the assigned ratings based on asking a bunch of strangers in a forum is just plain nonsense. If it is possible to recertify a truck to a higher GVWR, then find and follow a certified expert's directions to achieve that new rating as it will be unique to your specific VIN.

 

[Rafke77]

@Rafke77 ^^^ he already said why the 3500 has a higher payload

Yes, this was discussed. It was also noted the pictures that showed this were not accurate. So the added cross members could not be confirmed, unless someone has the time to physically crawl under and count.

 

[Rafke77]

GVWR MINUS BASE WEIGHT EQUALS PAYLOAD.

a HEMI weighs less than a Cummins therefore has more payload.

A 2500 weighs less than 3500. But a 3500 has a higher GVWR.

2500 GVWR is capped at 10k...hemi, diesel, reg cab, crew cab, short bed, long bed

A 3500 has a different GVWR for each configuration.

A Diesel crew cab has more than a HEMI cree cab.

A long bed has more than a short bed.

This is all because each frame is more rigid than the next, and because the diesel can control weight better over a 10k limit.

I mentioned the GCWR debate cause there is a ton of misinformation in this thread about rear gears and payload and why one truck has more than another.

Payload is directly affected by trim level. More base weight means less payload

I am fully aware on how payload is calculated regarding weight classes of trucks, subtracting the weights from the GVWR of all the options and add ons.
From what I've seen, even on Mopars site, the frames are interchangeable, to me, this means they are the same.
I am trying to know why it is called calculated that way. Are the same trucks both capable of holding the same weight, but are rated 10000 or 14000lbs just for registration purposes or is there a physical difference. And the only physical difference, if I design the same truck is the badging and rear suspension. And when I write same truck, I'm referring to same model, packages, engine, trans, and gears, just 35 vs 25.

 

[Rafke77]

Always interesting to see where these discussions of payload capacity go.

With the countless threads and opinions on the payload issue, it still all goes back to the engineer-certified numbers found on the door jamb and the value found through a VIN search. These are not arbitrary.

There is a reason that 3/4 ton trucks have a max GVWR of 10,000 pounds. It may be benefits of staying in the light duty (yes, 3/4 ton pickup trucks are classified as light duty Class 2 by Federal rating) range. But it is not responsible to just think that limit can be exceeded without performing all due diligence first. I do not have the empirical, theoretical, and practical knowledge to know if this is a possibility, so prudence dictates I stay under the maximum numbers.

To make a decision to exceed the assigned ratings based on asking a bunch of strangers in a forum is just plain nonsense. If it is possible to recertify a truck to a higher GVWR, then find and follow a certified expert's directions to achieve that new rating as it will be unique to your specific VIN.

This is a very interesting debate which I have read on several different forums about and spoke to dealer reps and still can not get a non conflicting answer.

I believe in SOME cases the numbers are arbitrary and are just for the federal inspections.

I just want to make clear again, I have no intentions of exceeding any numbers which I've stated multiple times.

Finding a certified expert would not be that hard, in multiple states you can register a truck higher then the listed GVWR. That would seem like a tremendous liability on the state if they didn't have a good reason why they allowed that.

Edit* one other point I'd like to repeat. If the GVWR of 10000 is not arbitrary, why add in axle ratings that total up well higher then it? If the truck is limited to weigh 10000lbs for safety, why have axel ratings at 5500 front and 6390 rear? An 1890lb difference is substantial. All this comes down to the manufacturer, just put a "do not exceed limit" instead of, "well your truck shouldn't weigh more then this limit, but if it does, it's ok, it shouldn't exceed this limit on the front axle and this limit on the back, but if it does, try not to exceed the tires limit"

 

[dhay13]

This is a very interesting debate which I have read on several different forums about and spoke to dealer reps and still can not get a non conflicting answer.

I believe in SOME cases the numbers are arbitrary and are just for the federal inspections.

I just want to make clear again, I have no intentions of exceeding any numbers which I've stated multiple times.

Finding a certified expert would not be that hard, in multiple states you can register a truck higher then the listed GVWR. That would seem like a tremendous liability on the state if they didn't have a good reason why they allowed that.

Edit* one other point I'd like to repeat. If the GVWR of 10000 is not arbitrary, why add in axle ratings that total up well higher then it? If the truck is limited to weigh 10000lbs for safety, why have axel ratings at 5500 front and 6390 rear? An 1890lb difference is substantial. All this comes down to the manufacturer, just put a "do not exceed limit" instead of, "well your truck shouldn't weigh more then this limit, but if it does, it's ok, it shouldn't exceed this limit on the front axle and this limit on the back, but if it does, try not to exceed the tires limit"

I answered the last point earlier. It's not a 'sum' of axle weights. If your rear axle GAWR is 6500 and front is 5500 and GVWR is 10,000 then if you are at max on rear (6500) then you can only have 3500 on the front. This is due to GVWR limitations, not axle limitations. The GAWR is in place to protect axles, bearings, seals, etc. The GVWR is in place (arguably) due to limits on braking, steering, suspension. They are calculated based on limitations of different 'systems' on the vehicle

 

[Rafke77]

I answered the last point earlier. It's not a 'sum' of axle weights. If your rear axle GAWR is 6500 and front is 5500 and GVWR is 10,000 then if you are at max on rear (6500) then you can only have 3500 on the front. This is due to GVWR limitations, not axle limitations. The GAWR is in place to protect axles, bearings, seals, etc. The GVWR is in place (arguably) due to limits on braking, steering, suspension. They are calculated based on limitations of different 'systems' on the vehicle

Ok, let me try this.. What is the difference between a 3500 and a 2500 besides leaf springs and the badging? Why can a 3500 have a GVWR of 11000 as opposed to 10000lbs on a 2500?

I'm not interested in stickers and numbers on a door. Justify to me with proof preferably, how the two trucks are physically different. Why can the one "safely" hold more payload.

This has been all I wanted to try to learn since the beginning. It has been a can of worms on every... Single... Forum I've researched.