A can of worms.. Payload.. Why?

[Rafke77]

I think your eyes are better than mine. And even after reviewing the pics I posted, I just am at a loss for exactly what I am supposed to see. I heard 'behind the axle' but not which pic. And I've got to move on to the game right now. Back atcha tomorrow hopefully

Lol sorry these. I went and took a better pic of mine as well.

 

[dhay13]

So GVWR 10000. My sticker shows Front axle weight capacity 5500, rear 6390.. 5500+6390=11890lbs the truck should safely hold. Why wouldn't payload equal weight of the truck subtracted from the total of what each axle can hold? This is where I believe the states make money off registration.

Factory rear tires, have a max weight capacity at 80psi for single tire of 3640lbs. One rear tire on each side would mean 7280lbs of even weight could be supported in the rear. (Not to mention total 14560lbs capacity of all 4 tires) So tires are not the weak point.

So besides rear squatting which can be fixed with helper springs or bags, I believe my margin of safety would be much higher then I expected.

Yes I understand mounting points of the different suspensions. But I believe that's just because of coils vs leafs, I don't think that alone would add to the payload, it's got to be the actual difference in spring pressure. But I know ram wanted comfort as a ride for these trucks. So adding those extras, I could lose comfort for the addition of a non squatting truck.

not necessarily. If your tire capacity is 1500lbs so your total is 6000lbs that doesn't mean you can put all 6000lbs on one tire. Axle ratings are related more to the axle, bearings, seals, etc. Payload rating also takes into account stopping distances, etc.

 

[RamRigger]

Thanks to tron67j (hope I wrote his name right) for his take on this and it turns out he is correct and to Rafke77 too.

Found a better view of each frame. These are architectural draft drawings but pretty clearly show the differences. I'll post the images and the links to each so you can link away and then scroll down some to see the actual description as to which is which. But it's obvious now that the new frames redesigned in 2019 are quite different in terms of structural strength for both payload and towing. This also should answer the question about replacing coils with leaf springs, as it isn't adequate to equal the rigidity of the 1 ton frame.

Pic on left is the 2500 and here's the link: https://parts.allmoparparts.com/oem...ulkAdC2ZFHj9wDJSO6fn5gHO6COIEPehoCVQIQAvD_BwE

Pic on the right is the 3500 and here's the link:https://parts.allmoparparts.com/oem...ulkAdC2ZFHj9wDJSO6fn5gHO6COIEPehoCVQIQAvD_BwE

 

[392DevilDog]

Found a better view of each frame. These are architectural draft drawings but pretty clearly show the differences. I'll post the images and the links to each so you can link away and then scroll down some to see the actual description as to which is which. But it's obvious now that the new frames redesigned in 2019 are quite different in terms of structural strength for both payload and towing. This also should answer the question about replacing coils with leaf springs, as it isn't adequate to equal the rigidity of the 1 ton frame.

Pic on left is the 2500 and here's the link: https://parts.allmoparparts.com/oem...ulkAdC2ZFHj9wDJSO6fn5gHO6COIEPehoCVQIQAvD_BwE

Pic on the right is the 3500 and here's the link:https://parts.allmoparparts.com/oem...ulkAdC2ZFHj9wDJSO6fn5gHO6COIEPehoCVQIQAvD_BwE

I am so glad you posted this. For years I have been trying to explain this. On, I guess 4 different sites.

I got sick of even reading the posts anymore.

Good stuff

 

[Rafke77]

not necessarily. If your tire capacity is 1500lbs so your total is 6000lbs that doesn't mean you can put all 6000lbs on one tire. Axle ratings are related more to the axle, bearings, seals, etc. Payload rating also takes into account stopping distances, etc.

Unless I'm understanding this wrong, each tire can hold >3500lbs. I understand they individually can't hold the total of what all combined can hold.

 

[dhay13]

Unless I'm understanding this wrong, each tire can hold >3500lbs. I understand they individually can't hold the total of what all combined can hold.

Yeah I was throwing out easy to calculate numbers. Too much mental math for me...lol. But yeah, like I said, payload would factor in breaking as it is based on total weight of the truck (GVWR). If you add front and rear axle GAWR that number would be higher than your GVWR and put you over. Big deal? Likely not but I would believe GVWR limits are as much for steering and braking as it is for suspension, whereas GAWR are only suspension.

 

[Rafke77]

Yeah I was throwing out easy to calculate numbers. Too much mental math for me...lol. But yeah, like I said, payload would factor in breaking as it is based on total weight of the truck (GVWR). If you add front and rear axle GAWR that number would be higher than your GVWR and put you over. Big deal? Likely not but I would believe GVWR limits are as much for steering and braking as it is for suspension, whereas GAWR are only suspension.

That makes sense, but is there a difference in brakes between a diesel and gas 2500, with a diesel being able to tow that much more. I need to do more research and see if I can find this out. If there are any differences in 2500 versus 3500 in any steering components or braking components.

 

[dhay13]

on a 2018 the brakes are the same for 2500 and 3500, Cummins and Hemi. Although the Cummins can tow more the GVWR is still the same between the two.

 

[06 Dodge]

Thanks to tron67j (hope I wrote his name right) for his take on this and it turns out he is correct and to Rafke77 too.

Found a better view of each frame. These are architectural draft drawings but pretty clearly show the differences. I'll post the images and the links to each so you can link away and then scroll down some to see the actual description as to which is which. But it's obvious now that the new frames redesigned in 2019 are quite different in terms of structural strength for both payload and towing. This also should answer the question about replacing coils with leaf springs, as it isn't adequate to equal the rigidity of the 1 ton frame.

Pic on left is the 2500 and here's the link: https://parts.allmoparparts.com/oem...ulkAdC2ZFHj9wDJSO6fn5gHO6COIEPehoCVQIQAvD_BwE

Pic on the right is the 3500 and here's the link:https://parts.allmoparparts.com/oem...ulkAdC2ZFHj9wDJSO6fn5gHO6COIEPehoCVQIQAvD_BwE

Thanks for posting this, I did not know they changed the 2019+ frame, had I known I most likely would of considered buying a 3500...

 

[RamRigger]

Thanks for posting this, I did not know they changed the 2019+ frame, had I known I most likely would of considered buying a 3500...

I too have had those thoughts but only since I posted the details and photos yesterday. I decided to take a look. Looked online at a 2022 Ram Tradesman 6.7L, 8' bed, DRW (can't yet found a 2023) with cloth interior and it had several upgrades, but nothing really expensive,. The price tag was $72k new. That meant I'd have to accept their trade-n price, (unknown cause I was just looking) but I can assume since I paid $59,900 that they might make a decent offer with just 4400 miles of perhaps near $55k? That meant I'd lose $5k plus pay $12k so the 3500 would cost me $17k plus $55k = $67k. And I could be too high on the trade in price. But remember this is a basic if new Tradesman. And as you can see by my photo I would be adding Katskinz leather/vinyl combo seats for another $1800-$2k depending on whose doing the install.

Not a bad price overall for a much better payload and towing capacities. Still thinking this one out, but I probably won't make a move until I can compare with the 2023 and even then, I'm pretty happy with my Ram 2500 6.7L with new interior. The biggest deal breaker is that I don't own a 5th wheel, or do construction work hauling equipment to job sites, nor do I own a travel trailer or a camper, or a boat. Bottom line is I don't need one, I just want one. And that's simply not a good enough justification, at this point

 

[Rafke77]

What's this forums policy on posting links or pictures or anything related to other forums? I found a thread on cummins forum that's related to my topic. Thanks!

Edit* found a great thread from this site that I'll add to here

2500 vs 3500 Payload

I recently bought a 2014 2500 Diesel 4x4, as an upgrade to my 1500 Hemi 4x2. I read quite a bit about weights, payloads, trailer weights, etc. during the process. My 1500 said it could pull about 8400 lbs with the setup I had. The 2500 can pull 17,000 lbs. So I keep joking that I could take the...

www.ramforum.com

 

[Rafke77]

So I also found that just changing the rear gears also increases the payload. I understand why it increases towing capacity, but why payload? The gears, engine, transmission correspond to a forward motion of pulling/pushing weight not vertical weight support...? How the hell does going from 3.73 to 4.1 safely add to the payload? Does checking the option for 4.10 (premium gears) change the physical suspension setup? (It does not mention any changes on the Ram website)

For those wondering, yes I'm diagnosed ocd.

Same trucks and options, just different rear gears.

 

[18CrewDually]

So I also found that just changing the rear gears also increases the payload. I understand why it increases towing capacity, but why payload? The gears, engine, transmission correspond to a forward motion of pulling/pushing weight not vertical weight support...? How the hell does going from 3.73 to 4.1 safely add to the payload? Does checking the option for 4.10 (premium gears) change the physical suspension setup? (It does not mention any changes on the Ram website)

For those wondering, yes I'm diagnosed ocd.

Same trucks and options, just different rear gears.

They put a number on it (limitations) not only for safety but mostly for longevity, or atleast to last through the warranty period.
So of course by getting the same truck but with lower gears, it puts less of a strain on the drivetrain running at the same CGVWR. This is one reason why they can raise the payload on a truck with lower gears, since the lower gears allows it to do more work, enabling it to than carry more weight and have the same service life.

Think of the extremes. Say you had a truck with 4.10:1 at max CGVWR of 14k pulling an 8% grade everyday. Now put 2.73:1 gears in that truck and try to do the same work and see how long it lasts. It won't hold up nearly as long as the property equipped truck.

 

[RamRigger]

Radfke,

My belief is that the photos and specs shown, do not tell the whole story. The only reason I say that is if in fact the vehicles are identical, and they seem to be, the differential gear ratios have nothing to do with payload. However if you'll look at the small circled number 2 to the right of the payload stat, you'll hover and click to see, "When properly equipped", whatever that means, and my guess is that would have to be swapping out coils for leafs. Because even air suspension does not increase payload. It merely helps to stabilize the load

 

[18CrewDually]

They ARE NOT identical. the rear sections are not even comparable since one is leaf and one is a 4 link coil arrangement. The load bearing areas are no where near the same.

 

[392DevilDog]

Rear gear has nothing to do with payload. It does change the GCWR and would allow more towing.

The site you are using is not using the same truck for each reference. Hard to explain in txt...but the rear gear does nothing for payload.

Something else is changed that the generic payload calculator is not showing.

 

[RamRigger]

They ARE NOT identical. the rear sections are not even comparable since one is leaf and one is a 4 link coil arrangement. The load bearing areas are no where near the same.

Oh geez I couldn't tell that from the pics or the description. How did you discover that one is coil and one is leaf? My understanding is that only 3500 models are available in leaf rears suspension.

 

[18CrewDually]

Oh geez I couldn't tell that from the pics or the description. How did you discover that one is coil and one is leaf? My understanding is that only 3500 models are available in leaf rears suspension.

Is that not the topic, 2500 & 3500? Unless I read it incorrectly that is what the OP is asking from post #1.

 

[RamRigger]

Is that not the topic, 2500 & 3500? Unless I read it incorrectly that is what the OP is asking from post #1.

Yes sir you are correct. I was off topic

 

[Rafke77]

Ok yes, so when properly equipped, I see that, but going back a few of my posts, I was looking at 3500's and wondering why the same model, engine, trans and gearing could tow less, but have a 1000lb+ increase in payload. I spoke to a commercial rep at a local dealer, he explained the trucks are identical, the only difference is the suspension, leafs vs coils. Yes I know the mounting points are all different, that's been discussed already. I asked the rep, if I added additional support for the suspension, air bags, helper springs, to make up for the lack compression rate in the coils, could the truck safely have the same payload as the 3500, he said yes. It's the GVWR is numbered higher for the 3500s. The dealership also stated that the higher gears will increase payload because it is able to get the torque to the wheels better than 373's.
To me it seems like a numbers game, to fit the different classes of trucks. I don't know if anybody checked out that link that I added, but people have wrote that in some states you can register your truck higher than the GVWR. if anybody's familiar, it reminds me of the 1986 and 1987 Grand nationals. Buick rated them at 235 and 245 horsepower, when in actuality they were around 300. Buick did this because GM did want anything more powerful than the Corvette at the time, its flagship.

Edit* so is it like that, just what's put on paper to mostly satisfy for registration purposes. I order a 3500 that pulls less then a 2500 *if properly equipped*, but what's the point in that? If I get a 3500, I want an increase in towing like going from a gas to diesel, and a payload increase of a proportionate amount. A lot of people just accept that it's called a 3500 or 350 or 1 ton, so it's bigger, and must be able to do more work