AGM VS OEM VS LEAD CELL

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HEMIMANN

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This is the heart of every modification; I'm going to spend money on upgrades to make it better. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't.

Imagine spending just $180 on an Interstate 27F. That battery is lead acid and has a reserve capacity of 165 minutes (25 amp load until 10.5V). Compare that to an Optimal Yellow Top. 140 minutes reserve capacity and $380. While the Yellow top may advertise 830CCA vs the Interstate 710CCA, the Interstate has more reserve. Both ratings assume battery is fully charged, a situation that won't happen with the Optima if you charge directly from the alternator. I've gone through probably a dozen AGMs in search of something 'better'. Those batts, while always starting the vehicle performed worse in a camp environment where there was continuous draw (i.e. fridge, lights, etc) than lead acid. Once I figured out that you need something like a RedArc BCDC 25 to correctly charge an AGM things started working.

So your $380 Optima is only really getting maybe 80-90% full and is never achieving it's advertised performance. You feel better because you've 'upgraded' and because you have no direct measurement of state of charge you assume it's bringing value. But in reality it's not.

If you want to run electronics longer, you need a bigger battery (or a second battery) not an AGM. Lithium is a much better choice for extended run time (you can take those down to almost full depletion), but I wouldn't recommend that for under the hood, nor for starting loads. I'd run an AGM in something like a desert racer where it is exposed to extreme vibration, but not in a daily or camp rig.

A couple of good resources to consider:

https://workshoppist.com/car-alternator-charge-agm-battery/

https://www.interstatebatteries.com/blog/how-to-charge-an-agm-battery

Look at Amp-hours.
 

CanuckRam1313

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But see, what we're discussing today is vehicle batteries are way more than just starting batteries now. With scads of electronics, many that continue running in sleep mode, a tough battery that can take nonstop draw without draining excessively is critical now.
Agreed!!!

I have my security system, GPS system, and my cameras, too!
Top that off with over 2000W of audio.... I must have a top notch battery with huge reserves and capabilities for the deliverables I expect, period!

My H8 AGM Odyssey delivers in spades... worth every dang dollar as far as I am concerned!

Here's my take....
Don't ever compromise on ones brakes, tires and battery (electrical system)... these by far are the most important aspects of any reliable/dependable vehicle ownership experience that anyone with a likeminded philosophy has in mind!

Without this trifecta mentality (in my opinion only, that is!) one is shooting ur firearm with blanks ;)
 

HEMIMANN

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Reserve capacity is amp hours until hitting 10.5V. In my example, the Interstate has 165 and the Optima 140. So for twice the price, you've got 15% lower capacity. But in the real world much less because you'll never fully charge the Optima AGM.

This doesnt' make sense - the entire idea behind an AGM, besides efficiency and ruggedness, is better endurance.

Sure you're not comparing apples and giraffes?
 

Overlander

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This doesnt' make sense - the entire idea behind an AGM, besides efficiency and ruggedness, is better endurance.

Sure you're not comparing apples and giraffes?

Click on the links and see for yourself. I know the industry has sold AGM for a long time based upon this perception. I've gone through a lot of them believing this incorrectly. In my example (27F Interstate vs 27F Optima), the Interstate has more for half the price. Link:

1707776600328.png

To be fair, I do run an X2Power AGM as a second battery in a Land Cruiser. I do this because it's lesser cost than Lithium and it's mounted under the hood. But I also run a RedArc BCDC 30 to charge it. Before I did that I got half the life out of an AGM. Not even a comparable difference.

So yes, you can get a deeper cycle out of an AGM but to do so you have to charge it as an AGM, not as an OEM lead acid.
 

HEMIMANN

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Click on the links and see for yourself. I know the industry has sold AGM for a long time based upon this perception. I've gone through a lot of them believing this incorrectly. In my example (27F Interstate vs 27F Optima), the Interstate has more for half the price. Link:

View attachment 537389

To be fair, I do run an X2Power AGM as a second battery in a Land Cruiser. I do this because it's lesser cost than Lithium and it's mounted under the hood. But I also run a RedArc BCDC 30 to charge it. Before I did that I got half the life out of an AGM. Not even a comparable difference.

So yes, you can get a deeper cycle out of an AGM but to do so you have to charge it as an AGM, not as an OEM lead acid.

"So yes, you can get a deeper cycle out of an AGM but to do so you have to charge it as an AGM, not as an OEM lead acid."

Are you not refuting paragraphs of your own statements? Most of us do know AGM charge regime is different - that's what we were discussing when you started saying AGM is no good. Many of us use garage maintainers with dedicated AGM charge cycle. The vehicle ECM is SUPPOSED TO be able to sense whether flooded cell or AGM.
 

Shawn Burns

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Got a Trike, weight is Irrelevant. NO way I would do lithium anything on vehicles. Too much Lithium based stuff going p o o f, but that is just my take on all this battery craze.

View attachment 537356
Two of my bikes are sub-400 lb street/track bikes. And my dirt stuff is less than 300. If I were riding what you're on, I woul go for lead acid as well for the same reasons that you said.
 

Overlander

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Are you not refuting paragraphs of your own statements? Most of us do know AGM charge regime is different - that's what we were discussing when you started saying AGM is no good. Many of us use garage maintainers with dedicated AGM charge cycle. The vehicle ECM is SUPPOSED TO be able to sense whether flooded cell or AGM.

In every charger that is out there you have to set whether it is Lead Acid, AGM, or Lithium. What makes you think that the Ram can detect this on it's own? Is there some data that Ram publishes to show this? The only thing the charging system can see is voltage. It bases it's output on the charging profile set for the original battery. To use another profile requires a user setting change.

That an AGM can be discharged deeper and that it makes for a good vehicle battery are two different things. I run the AGM as a house battery in the Land Cruiser because at the time the AGM was the best technology out there for its purpose. And we're also talking about running a huge group 34 batt. Would I do it again? No. You can get a Lithium of half the size with the same discharge capacity (a 50ah lithium is the equivalent to a 100ah AGM as both can be discharged reliably by 50ah). Not to mention the weight savings.

I get that a lot of people have been sold on the AGM technology. I'm here to say I've had the opposite experience. If you've spent a lot of money and want to believe otherwise to justify the expense then that's up to you. I'm definitely a 'buy once, cry once' guy. I've not experienced nor do I see any data that shows them (AGMs) to be beneficial, just the opposite. Several years ago I ran AGM (same brand, different sizes) as both starting and house batts, believing I was buying the best. If I had only ran it as a starting batt I would have never known the difference because it would have started the truck. Not because it was the best at that job, but because there is huge reserve capacity in that role. Camping loads, however, take much more of a demand. You're pulling a significant amount of capacity out of the battery. In that mode I got to see first hand how poorly a vehicle was able to charge an AGM. They simply weren't being charged. And this is with relatively modern vehicles... both on a 2004 and a 2013.

I do believe that the OE Ram batts are not good. Mine was replaced before it was 3 years old. But it was replaced with conventional batt and works great. FWIW, I often go over a weak without driving and it has no problem handling the paracitic draw during that time. And it should because it has a high reserve capacity, the key metric.

I get the sense that this is some kind of sacred ground that I'm stepping on. Like I've ventured into a cold air intake or premium fuel debate. Not my intent at all. You can save money - and have a better outcome - with wet lead acid battery. If there's data (vs opinions) that show otherwise, I'm all ears.
 

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tjfdesmo

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Odyssey batteries will not reach 100% SOC on most vehicle charging systems. That was explained to me by a factory rep at a dealer show. However, I sold many hundreds of AGM batteries for vehicles, equipment, and powersports applications, and never witnessed a SOC issue during service and load testing.

Case in point, our local PD bought a Honda ST1300 police bike, and the LEO conversion included an Odyssey battery. They had continuous battery/charging issues. The dealer who did the conversion kept feeding them BS and installing Odyssey after Odyssey. I finally convinced them to let us install a Deka AGM, a bit of a project due to location requiring tray modifications, etc. Problem solved.
 

turkeybird56

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Two of my bikes are sub-400 lb street/track bikes. And my dirt stuff is less than 300. If I were riding what you're on, I woul go for lead acid as well for the same reasons that you said.
FTR, do AGM on MC and my RAM. I wish 400 lbs. 2006 stock 1832 CC bike, 2015 Cobra Razor Trike Kit.
Trike kit: 1200 lbs
Bike: 838 Lbs dry, gallon oil 7.3 lbs, fuel tank full 6.6 G, 41.58 lbs, installed options, total weight on ground 900 lbs.
Puts my MC without my backside at 2100 lbs more or less, lol.

ADDED: And PPL are astonished when they go, how many MPG, 40, 41, ahhhhh try 30 mpg. Bike built to pull 900 lbs, not over 2300 lmao.
 
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HEMIMANN

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Worth spending a few minutes reading this TSB. It says it's for the stop/start function,but it also shows you how to hook up a battery charger/maintainer properly to the IBS sensor on the negative post


I've got an intelligent charger on AGM charge cycle on my AGM battery. These are widely available today, principle among them C-Tek (my preferred) and NOCO. Unfortunately, C-Tek outsourced to China, I think NOCO is still USA made.

The issue here is just how "integrated" the truck ISB is. Is it just a voltage regulator set for flooded wet cell batteries only, or is it truly "integrated" and actually senses battery voltage AND type, and adjusts charging rates proportionately? We all know by now the efficiency of AGM requires a much lower amp charging rate or they burn up.
 

Wild one

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I've got an intelligent charger on AGM charge cycle on my AGM battery. These are widely available today, principle among them C-Tek (my preferred) and NOCO. Unfortunately, C-Tek outsourced to China, I think NOCO is still USA made.

The issue here is just how "integrated" the truck ISB is. Is it just a voltage regulator set for flooded wet cell batteries only, or is it truly "integrated" and actually senses battery voltage AND type, and adjusts charging rates proportionately? We all know by now the efficiency of AGM requires a much lower amp charging rate or they burn up.
I like my 2 Nocco chargers,i swap them between my AGM and flooded wet cell batteries all the time,and they sense what battery they're on,which is why i bought them a 1/2 dozen years ago,and the float mode is nice as i can leave them on the battery and walk away from the vehicle for a week with them maintaining the charge
 

HEMIMANN

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I like my 2 Nocco chargers,i swap them between my AGM and flooded wet cell batteries all the time,and they sense what battery they're on,which is why i bought them a 1/2 dozen years ago,and the float mode is nice as i can leave them on the battery and walk away from the vehicle for a week with them maintaining the charge

Absolutely! When I retired, then the pandemic hit, I don't have a lot of planned outings, so I always throw onto smart charger now. In fact, I liked it so much I got one for all my other engines.

I take it you don't know how the onboard ISB works, tho?
 

Wild one

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Absolutely! When I retired, then the pandemic hit, I don't have a lot of planned outings, so I always throw onto smart charger now. In fact, I liked it so much I got one for all my other engines.

I take it you don't know how the onboard ISB works, tho?
Just hook your extra grounds to it after the IBS sensor,that's about all i've researched on it. I've never dug into it's actual operation though,it's not something that's ever really intrigued me enough to go digging into it's operating parameters. If you go digging and find out what's it's parameters are for sensing the battery load,keep us updated.
 

js12278

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NO, nothing ref charging rate per se. The IBS integrates with like 4 modules, to include telling SOC of battery, temperature, load requirements, and passes this info to TIPM part (not sure which modules, that is beyond me), so the TIPM "tells" the alternator system the needed charging rate. When U put in new battery, all the info stored and communication with IBS is set in to whateva the old battery had/needed, not the new battery, so hence the "reset". A lot of brands, like BMW, Mercedes, even some Fords, U actually have to hook up to OBD and reset. On Rams, a lil different, IBS just needs to be off battery 2-4 hours (This according to tech).

ADDED: PLS, nobody beat me up. Just relating what was told by tech, and no, he was not hitting me with a smoke b o m b.


Many other manufacturers do a similar technology when replacing batteries. Some call it “registering” The battery, some “resetting battery state of charge” with ECM/PCM
 

crash68

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Odyssey batteries will not reach 100% SOC on most vehicle charging systems. That was explained to me by a factory rep at a dealer show.
something smells of hooie with this statement why just Odyssey batteries, it would apply to all batteries. Charging any battery comes down to voltage, current and time.
 

HEMIMANN

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Many other manufacturers do a similar technology when replacing batteries. Some call it “registering” The battery, some “resetting battery state of charge” with ECM/PCM

"To replace the battery, you will first need to locate the battery..." OMFG!!! lol

And just why isn't the vehicle manufacturer obliged to inform customers what is needed to replace a routine maintenance part?

There is a big lawsuit by farmers against Deere & Co. for just this kind of thing where Deere wants a monopoly on electronic service items. Last I recall, the farmers won, but lawyers were still busy siphoning more money from negotiating terms and conditions. There is a national law stating that product manufacturers can not monopolize routine maintenance parts, and I would think that would include any special instructions required for replacement.
 

tjfdesmo

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something smells of hooie with this statement why just Odyssey batteries, it would apply to all batteries. Charging any battery comes down to voltage, current and time.
No hooie. Odyssey requires 14.7 V to charge properly. Deka has no such requirement(13.8 min), just not to overcharge.
 

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